The WotLK profession thread - Page 121

Kyai · 05/23/09, 12:00 PM

It seems to me that the simplest fix to the complaints about a lack of blue gems to make meta requirements could be solved to an extent by moving armour pen from red to blue. As it stands there are 8 stats associated with red gems, 6 for yellow and 4 for blue, and two of the blue stats (mp5 and spell pen) are pretty undesirable for almost all classes and specs. Moving armour pen in line with spell pen would help reduce some of the disparity, and give physical DPS an option to fill blue slots better than hybrid stam gems.

Jezele · 05/23/09, 7:21 PM

The biggest downside of the change to JC is that the Dragon's Eye cuts are only available for single colors (Red, Blue, Yellow) and not the mixed colors (Orange, Purple, Green). Most classes/specs only have one "best" cut, so in order to maximize their JC benefit, they need to have at least two sockets of that color (with the third being a belt socket). Otherwise, they're actually forced to forgo a socket bonus to get the most out of their profession. That probably isn't a huge problem, but it does reduce the usefulness of the DE cuts slightly.

IMHO, a better solution would have been to introduce epic gems. Then the additional stats on the DE cuts wouldn't matter much, which means the real benefit of JC would be the ability to fully utilize "wasted" sockets for their bonuses, along with the flexibility for meeting meta requirements.

urotas · 05/23/09, 7:52 PM

You actually need 3 slots of the right color in addition to the belt slot for the gems, as your one Stormjewel will also need the proper color socket. Even though the change is bad for me personally, it was a needed one as Jewelcrafting was miles above the other professions before.

It is slightly annoying that the annoyances of the prismatic gem system will still remain, while at the same time it'll only be about as good as blacksmithing. The prismatic gems often force you to regem several pieces of gear instead of just one when you get a new drop, as well as make it harder to swap gear between specs. With blacksmithing it's just a simple case of getting a socket made for a new item, and you don't need to mess with your other gear if you get a new pair of bracers. Most itemrack type mods are also unable to swap between gear with prismatic correctly.

Jewelcrafting still has the strength of being able to pick the best stat though, so it's still among the best professions. I'm just starting to wish I had picked Blacksmithing instead of Jewelcrafting for one alt of mine, as it provides the same benefit with far less hassle.

ildon · 05/24/09, 4:52 AM

Originally Posted by Kyai

It seems to me that the simplest fix to the complaints about a lack of blue gems to make meta requirements could be solved to an extent by moving armour pen from red to blue. As it stands there are 8 stats associated with red gems, 6 for yellow and 4 for blue, and two of the blue stats (mp5 and spell pen) are pretty undesirable for almost all classes and specs. Moving armour pen in line with spell pen would help reduce some of the disparity, and give physical DPS an option to fill blue slots better than hybrid stam gems.

While in TBC the meta requirements almost seemed random, in WotLK I think it's clear they budget the meta bonuses with the gem requirements in mind. Moving Armor Pen to blue would literally be giving all physical DPS "free" damage while still taxing casters for the same/similar metas.

Ivriniel · 05/24/09, 9:38 AM

Originally Posted by foolish_fool

If and when there are epic gems, there will be a new tier of JC gems. Blizzard aren't stupid. If anything, this change is long overdue. JC will remain one of the strongest professions due to the flexability provided by having bonuses in stats other than AP/SP/stam.

Targozha was aiming at Blacksmithing I think.

As soon as you introduce epic gems Blacksmithing gets a clear stat advantage over all other professions due to having the 2 extra sockets.

Post JC nerf, Blacksmithing seems to be the best profession, with the best outlook for the future (epic gems).

Nemantopia · 05/24/09, 10:40 AM

Originally Posted by ildon

While in TBC the meta requirements almost seemed random, in WotLK I think it's clear they budget the meta bonuses with the gem requirements in mind. Moving Armor Pen to blue would literally be giving all physical DPS "free" damage while still taxing casters for the same/similar metas.

Not just this, but the colors clearly have a theme. Red is Damage, Blue is Defense, and Yellow is Otha'. Clearly, this is not an entirely accurate assessment, since there seems to be some elemental theme here [egads, it's Pokeminz!] and should probably be restated as Red/Fire = (Bruet/Raw) Power, Blue/Water = Health/Mana/well-being/healing/entropy, Yellow/Lightning/'tricity = Indirect/Deflection. So, why is there the 8/6/4 distribution of stats? As ildon mentions, to keep physical DPS from getting essential freebies on the meta-gem thing, but also to keep casters from doing so. If blue had a straight stat [Str, Agi] or one of the hard DPS stats [crit, haste, hit, expertise], there'd be no point to the meta-gem requirments. They'd just use their blue slots for a solid chunk of those, then go back to slotting Bold/Runed/Bright.

Similarly, the distribution between red and yellow exists to provide intentional multi-color benefits for both tanks and DPS. Instead of having to use a red spot for Str/Stam [which admittedly isn't bad], it opens up the board to things NOT assigned to blue: hit and expertise, or threat stats; defense and dodge, mitigation stats. This means a tank can meet both meta and socketing-bonus requirements with a lot of flexibility. Notice how red and yellow each get one of two threat stats and one of two mitigation stats? Obviously, Parry is the odd-man out and opens similar lee-way, but could honestly be a blue stat with no impact. To my knowledge, parry is pretty undesirable at this point thanks to harsh diminishing returns and a cap around 45% [as opposed to dodge, which is stupid high so bear tanks can, well, tank], so I just skipped it; I suppose you could argue it's further imbalance in favor of red that could be shuffled without fiddling with gem design.

Is it 'fair'? Not especially, either in terms of what color gets what or a DPS vs tank argument. That said, I want my tank with no useless itemization, cause it means my DPS gets to keep DPSing.

Ivriniel · 05/24/09, 2:08 PM

Your assesment is pretty accurate, but you are missing one thing - [Purified Twilight Opal] - yes spirit is not a pure dps stat, but it's a dps increasing stat. This puts casters at a very slight advantage over melee who will get stamina for their blue sockets. It might get even worse if Blizzard further increases the importance of regen and strenghtens dps increase from spirit via talents (see the buff to Moonkin Aura).

sihyunie · 05/25/09, 3:47 AM

What will happen when the epic gems come out? We knew that BS would be best profession when that happens, but JC went from competitive thanks to prismatic status to worst profession. JC goes from 33+alpha stat gain to 21 stat gain (or 39 SP to 27SP), which pales in comparison to other professions. I think they should just leave JC as is and introduce epic gems next patch instead.

Ukerric · 05/25/09, 5:00 AM

Originally Posted by sihyunie

What will happen when the epic gems come out? We knew that BS would be best profession when that happens, but JC went from competitive thanks to prismatic status to worst profession. JC goes from 33+alpha stat gain to 21 stat gain (or 39 SP to 27SP), which pales in comparison to other professions. I think they should just leave JC as is and introduce epic gems next patch instead.

I think the removal of the prismatic status strongly indicates that there won't be epic gems (besides the "one max" from fishing dailies, that is).

The prismatic status would have been justified when compared with the reduced stat advantage of jewelcrafter-only gems vs epic gems; the three gems would give less stats compared to static profession boni, but they could be placed in any slot to enable the gem bonus, and trigger the meta (like they do now), adding a separate advantage.

Removing that advantage means it won't be needed in the future. Which fits with the fact that generalized epic gems would make blacksmithing the best profession ever.

I still think they should be introducing jewelcrafter mixed gems (orange, green, purples). If the jewelcrafter gem choices remain only in primary colors, that becomes a real handicap to the profession, since you need 3 gem slots in the colors you care about to make the best use of your gems, which, given some of the raid gear, is far from guaranteed. But mixed color gems would be good - and a real use for the extra tokens awarded as compensation.

Thargos · 05/25/09, 6:18 AM

Originally Posted by Targozha

As a tank all I'm interested in (mostly) is stamina. Assuming they leave it as it is now, JC will be worth 3x11 stamina over the normal 30 stamina gems.

The normal stamina gems are 24 stam, you can only have one 30 stam gem from the fishing dailies. So the benefit will be 3x17=51 stam, which is still better than mining or blacksmithing

Prinsesa · 05/25/09, 6:32 AM

As I see it, the gem dynamic could swing three ways:

1. Epic gems are not introduced at all - while this is rather "boring", it would also maintain the status quo once JC gets nerfed back in line with the other professions.

2. Epic gems are introduced, but professions are upgraded - if epic gems are upgraded, all other professions would require upgrades to their stat bonuses so that Blacksmithing doesn't become dominant. The simplest example of course would be the Dragon's Eye cuts, but keep in mind that LW fur enchants and Mining Toughness would lose ground once Smiths start putting 30 STA gems in their bracers and gloves.

3. Epic gems are introduced, but cannot be placed in BS sockets - this wouldn't be as "boring" as #1, but would also skip the need to re-buff all the other professions to compensate. Since there's already a mechanic in place to prevent meta gems from being placed in non-meta sockets, I'm pretty sure its technologically possible to disallow epic gems from being placed in BS sockets.

Ingmar · 05/25/09, 7:55 AM

Originally Posted by Prinsesa

As I see it, the gem dynamic could swing three ways:

1. Epic gems are not introduced at all - while this is rather "boring", it would also maintain the status quo once JC gets nerfed back in line with the other professions.

2. Epic gems are introduced, but professions are upgraded - if epic gems are upgraded, all other professions would require upgrades to their stat bonuses so that Blacksmithing doesn't become dominant. The simplest example of course would be the Dragon's Eye cuts, but keep in mind that LW fur enchants and Mining Toughness would lose ground once Smiths start putting 30 STA gems in their bracers and gloves.

3. Epic gems are introduced, but cannot be placed in BS sockets - this wouldn't be as "boring" as #1, but would also skip the need to re-buff all the other professions to compensate. Since there's already a mechanic in place to prevent meta gems from being placed in non-meta sockets, I'm pretty sure its technologically possible to disallow epic gems from being placed in BS sockets.

Option 4: just like the fishing gems and dragonseyes, epic gems get a maximum number of epic gems applied to them.

Starfire · 05/25/09, 7:22 PM

Originally Posted by sihyunie

What will happen when the epic gems come out? We knew that BS would be best profession when that happens, but JC went from competitive thanks to prismatic status to worst profession. JC goes from 33+alpha stat gain to 21 stat gain (or 39 SP to 27SP), which pales in comparison to other professions. I think they should just leave JC as is and introduce epic gems next patch instead.

How do you figure?

You still get 3 Runed Dragon's Eyes which give 96 spellpower. If you weren't a JC, you would of used 3 Runed Scarlet Rubies, which give 57 spellpower. Therefore since 96 - 57 = 39, Jewelcrafting is worth 39 spellpower to a caster.

This is on part with Leatherworking/Blacksmithing/Alchemy/Enchanting, all worth around 37-38 spellpower.

The only time this would not be true is if gear did not have 3 red sockets. And as an added bonus, a JC can have a 33 Int bonus, something a Leatherworkign or Enchanter can't have. Admittedly a BS could get 32 Int.

Gofa · 05/25/09, 7:40 PM

Originally Posted by Starfire

How do you figure?

You still get 3 Runed Dragon's Eyes which give 96 spellpower. If you weren't a JC, you would of used 3 Runed Scarlet Rubies, which give 57 spellpower. Therefore since 96 - 57 = 39, Jewelcrafting is worth 39 spellpower to a caster.

This is on part with Leatherworking/Blacksmithing/Alchemy/Enchanting, all worth around 37-38 spellpower.

The only time this would not be true is if gear did not have 3 red sockets. And as an added bonus, a JC can have a 33 Int bonus, something a Leatherworkign or Enchanter can't have. Admittedly a BS could get 32 Int.

He is referring to epic gems: 3x23 = 69. 96 - 69 = 27 => JW only worth 27+dmg anymore.
I'm 100% positive there will be epic gems in 3.2, so let's see how Blizzard will solve this problem.

Kyai · 05/25/09, 7:40 PM

Originally Posted by Nemantopia

Not just this, but the colors clearly have a theme. Red is Damage, Blue is Defense, and Yellow is Otha'. Clearly, this is not an entirely accurate assessment, since there seems to be some elemental theme here [egads, it's Pokeminz!] and should probably be restated as Red/Fire = (Bruet/Raw) Power, Blue/Water = Health/Mana/well-being/healing/entropy, Yellow/Lightning/'tricity = Indirect/Deflection. So, why is there the 8/6/4 distribution of stats? As ildon mentions, to keep physical DPS from getting essential freebies on the meta-gem thing, but also to keep casters from doing so. If blue had a straight stat [Str, Agi] or one of the hard DPS stats [crit, haste, hit, expertise], there'd be no point to the meta-gem requirments. They'd just use their blue slots for a solid chunk of those, then go back to slotting Bold/Runed/Bright.

Similarly, the distribution between red and yellow exists to provide intentional multi-color benefits for both tanks and DPS. Instead of having to use a red spot for Str/Stam [which admittedly isn't bad], it opens up the board to things NOT assigned to blue: hit and expertise, or threat stats; defense and dodge, mitigation stats. This means a tank can meet both meta and socketing-bonus requirements with a lot of flexibility. Notice how red and yellow each get one of two threat stats and one of two mitigation stats? Obviously, Parry is the odd-man out and opens similar lee-way, but could honestly be a blue stat with no impact. To my knowledge, parry is pretty undesirable at this point thanks to harsh diminishing returns and a cap around 45% [as opposed to dodge, which is stupid high so bear tanks can, well, tank], so I just skipped it; I suppose you could argue it's further imbalance in favor of red that could be shuffled without fiddling with gem design.

Is it 'fair'? Not especially, either in terms of what color gets what or a DPS vs tank argument. That said, I want my tank with no useless itemization, cause it means my DPS gets to keep DPSing.

It's a nice idea, but in reality there's no real pattern to what the colours offer. Blue has spell pen, and red has doge, parry and formerly healing too. Yellow has defense and resilience on the one hand, and haste, hit and crit on the other. By your loose definitions these are all mis-classed. So really I cannot see any coherent pattern in the gem colours and the associated stats. There is also the wierd issue that there are twice as many red gem associated stats as there are blue gem associated stats. This is part of the reason why red gems are disproportionately abundant.

I guess the crux question is, should every class have viable options for each gem colour. Personally I think offering more choice and flexibility in gemming can only be a good thing. Perhaps from the point of view of the designer, having a gradient of desirability for gem colour slots allows you to diversify the quality of your itemisation more; this is really the only reason I can think of why the current system is maintained.