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Old 08/03/08, 5:43 AM   #196
sarf
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Fars
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Originally Posted by Tyrian View Post
If they did this, everyone would be forced into being an Alchemist for raids and having the stone.
Depends on the cooldown, doesn't it? They could even do a "Inflicts Potion Weakness (50% decrease in effectiveness, cumulative) on use" part, and remove any cooldown, effectively limiting you to the power of two pots in one fight which should not overpower it. Having a "until combat is over" cooldown would also make it work similarly (at the benefit of just consuming two pots). Or perhaps an "On Use: Duplicate the effects of the last potion used."

It is quite an interesting idea, given the right constraints.

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Old 08/03/08, 8:49 AM   #197
Tyrian
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effectively limiting you to the power of two pots in one fight which should not overpower it.
Depends on what sort of raid fights they design. Twins (sac first) Phase 1 is ~3 minutes. Being able to use two ironshields then instead of one would be a pretty big deal. Its still an interesting idea with the right constraints as you said - but even something as seemingly innocent as 'Use: Allows the wearer to consume two potions before getting potion sickness." could have a large affect on some encounters.

To minimise the aforementioned issue, you could separate 'potion sickness' into several types of sickness: Reactive potion sickness (health/mana pots), proactive/buffing potion sickness (ironshields, destro pots etc) and allowed 1 of each per fight.

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Old 08/03/08, 5:08 PM   #198
 frmorrison
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Originally Posted by Anedris View Post
I doubt that we'll see alchemist stones in Wrath. Likely alchemy will get a new trinket with a completely different effect, since the current potion-boosting effect is being given to all alchemists as a passive skill.
The new Alchemy buff (called Mixologist) only affects elixirs and flasks.

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Old 08/03/08, 8:47 PM   #199
Malleus
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Originally Posted by Tyrian View Post
To minimise the aforementioned issue, you could separate 'potion sickness' into several types of sickness: Reactive potion sickness (health/mana pots), proactive/buffing potion sickness (ironshields, destro pots etc) and allowed 1 of each per fight.
Which doesn't address the fundamental issue. Blizzard are trying to reduce consumability dependence, which isn't itself a bad thing, but the way they're going about it is reducing the moneymaking potential of crafting professions by reducing the number of things you can sell. That isn't healthy. If there's not enough items worth making for profit, it inevitably leads towards people taking professions for the minimaxing perks - which is exactly what Blizz are trying to negate with effects like Tinnitus.

My take on potion sickness, if it's going to be included: the debuff should be temporary - between 3-5 minutes; I favour towards the lower end of the range - and instead of preventing potion use entirely it should reduce the effect (or duration, if it has one) of potions by 10%. If you drink another potion before the debuff wears off, the duration is refreshed and the debuff stacked. This would make chain-chugging less desirable, but at the same time not screw you completely if you have to take a second pot for whatever reason. And if you can hold off on your pot for long enough, there's no drawback at all - thus encouraging players to manage their resources more effectively.

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Old 08/03/08, 10:53 PM   #200
Nezralix
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Honestly, what makes you think they want potions in the raid game at all? They've obviously been more of a burden to raiding than anything else for *years*, when it's plainly obvious that they're designed as more of a situational "oh shit" sort of thing. Why the burning desire to shoehorn them into the raid game?

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Old 08/04/08, 12:15 AM   #201
Nisu
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Originally Posted by Malleus View Post
My take on potion sickness, if it's going to be included: the debuff should be temporary - between 3-5 minutes; I favour towards the lower end of the range - and instead of preventing potion use entirely it should reduce the effect (or duration, if it has one) of potions by 10%. If you drink another potion before the debuff wears off, the duration is refreshed and the debuff stacked. This would make chain-chugging less desirable, but at the same time not screw you completely if you have to take a second pot for whatever reason. And if you can hold off on your pot for long enough, there's no drawback at all - thus encouraging players to manage their resources more effectively.
That's not what Blizzard is trying to do. The entire point of the potion sickness debuff is to make Mana potions reactive like Health potions are. The idea is not to drink them asap so you have the cooldown free, but rather an extra leg up on mana if you run dry and have exhausted other regen options.

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Old 08/04/08, 12:23 AM   #202
Jebraltar
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Without potions, Alchemy will only be able to sell Elixirs and Flasks, which is apparently not enough for alchemists to make money. (Worse still, elixirs and flasks might be available through other channels in somewhat-below-needed levels, meaning that there will be a reduction in people's use of elixirs.)

The problem seems to be that the "money-maker" for Alchemy worked primarily by making other players leap through hoops to manufacture money so that it could be given to Alchemists, because otherwise it wasn't possible to do things they actually do. Increasing raiding's money flow and reduces its money drains make raiding a mostly self-sustainable lifestyle. End result is that, like PvP, raiding ends up not requiring that you level an alt to go pick flowers or that you do dailies for an hour or two a day. I don't really see how a reduction in Alchemy's money-making viability is going to do anything but bring it closer to other professions. (Making other professions as profitable means that people need to do more work, because even considering that everyone will have improved income, everyone will also have at least 2-3 times the spending to get the Blacksmith-only service, the Tailor-only service, etc.)

Of course, I also don't really believe the hype about other crafting professions not making money, either. Selling nethers at a measly 50g-100g a pop fairly early on was enough to more than pay for the cost of leveling Blacksmithing, my Enchanting pre-BC was usually good for 10g tips on any pattern it had taken me longer than ten seconds to rustle up, and overall, the worst part was that I had to advertise both occasionally and actually find/buy patterns. (I AH'ed most of the patterns I acquired, and most paid for themselves and then some. The most extreme example was a Felsteel Reaper pattern that led to my getting paid a 2700g crafting fee from somebody, but the rest was all just normal exchanges. "You can make Bracers of Awesome?" "Yeah." "How much?" "100g for the nether/craft, you bring the other mats." "That's steep." "Darn." "Okay, meet in Shatt?")

In the end, the worst that happens is you decide Alchemy is not a viable money-maker because you can only provide Elixirs now, and you switch to another profession (or dailies) for your money-making instead.

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Old 08/04/08, 12:36 AM   #203
rhen
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Originally Posted by Nezralix View Post
Honestly, what makes you think they want potions in the raid game at all? They've obviously been more of a burden to raiding than anything else for *years*, when it's plainly obvious that they're designed as more of a situational "oh shit" sort of thing. Why the burning desire to shoehorn them into the raid game?
What do you think would happen to alchemy if they remove potions from raids? Keep in mind that they are already removed from arenas, and flasks can be attained free from raid drops meaning the use of crafted flasks and elixirs are already reduced?

I think we need to, instead of criticising, come up with some constructive ideas that are balanced and will help Blizzard out with the obvious problem they have with alchemy.

Why not change potion sickness to a debuff that "reduces the effects of potions by 50%, stacks 2 times. Lasts 5 minutes"? That way you can use a potion every 5 minutes with full effect, or a second potion 2 minutes after the first with half effect. Will this make such a difference that you will be *required* to use a 50% pot every 5 minutes? I wouldn't have thought so. 50% of a potion is quite a small buff, but it might be enough if used in a clutch moment. It also gives a strategy to using potions instead of chugging them every 2 minutes

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Old 08/04/08, 12:44 AM   #204
Nisu
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Originally Posted by rhen View Post
Why not change potion sickness to a debuff that "reduces the effects of potions by 50%, stacks 2 times. Lasts 5 minutes"? That way you can use a potion every 5 minutes with full effect, or a second potion 2 minutes after the first with half effect. Will this make such a difference that you will be *required* to use a 50% pot every 5 minutes? I wouldn't have thought so. 50% of a potion is quite a small buff, but it might be enough if used in a clutch moment. It also gives a strategy to using potions instead of chugging them every 2 minutes
No, it really doesn't. It means you chug every 5 minutes instead of every two if the fight is 6 minutes or more, or chug every two if it isn't. All you've done is situationally modified the cooldown. It's still a dumb mechanic.

Hell, they're still not clever with the potion sickness debuff, but that's acceptable because they're an "oh crap" button.

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Old 08/04/08, 1:13 AM   #205
Jebraltar
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Originally Posted by rhen View Post
50% of a potion is quite a small buff
Using current numbers: A 100% effectiveness pot on a two-minute cooldown provides 100 mp5. So, burning two pots give you the same amount of mana as two minutes of 100 mp5 (between the first and second pot) and 50 mp5 for the next two minutes. A flask gives 25 mp5. That's a big effect for those last four minutes. (And if the fight is exceptionally long, you use one potion, wait five minutes, then use the next two.)

They want potions to be "OH SNAP!" buttons. It makes encounter balancing a lot less painful and cuts down a lot on people's costs. If you can chain-chug mana potions, even at somewhat reduced effectiveness, they either expect you to do so or you do it and make the encounter easier, then complain because raiding is too easy and too expensive. (I'd consider the equivalent of four minutes of 87.5 mp5 is pretty strong for a short fight, and the timer could be exploited for longer fights as well.)

Now, to address the first thing you said:

What do you think would happen to alchemy if they remove potions from raids?
It will become somewhat less profitable, although Marks don't come close to providing the entirety of most raid groups' flask/elixir needs anyway. (Not to mention that Elixirs are often more powerful than flasks, consumed in greater quantities, and only available through Alchemists.) This will cause people to leave the profession for "more profitable" ones, until eventually the profession makes money again. It may turn out differently, but that's pretty much what I think.

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Old 08/04/08, 2:35 AM   #206
Anedris
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I reiterate: I do not care what happens to alchemy.

I have been an alchemist, and I made 50g or more every day simply by pressing a button in Org and then going to the AH, listing my earthstorm diamond, and buying a few primals and gems to get my mats back so I could do it again tomorrow. I never sold a single potion or flask and did quite well out of the profession - obviously your economy may vary, but transmutes should always be a steady low volume (almost passive) money maker.

However, even if all the transmutes are useless, I will still not care what happens to alchemy, because alchemy is not more important than raiding. I will wholeheartedly support any measure that makes raiding more fun if the only cost is to make alchemy less profitable/viable. Swapping professions is easy. There is no option to swap to a raid game without consumables.

All that alchemy needs is to give it 5-6 best-in-slot, upgradeable BoP trinkets (come up with clever names and give them interesting but-not-consumable-dependent effects) and voila, mains will be alchemists.

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Old 08/04/08, 2:57 AM   #207
rhen
Glass Joe
 
Human Warrior
 
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I did the math for my proposition a few posts back, and it hovers between 50-60mp/5 if you chug current mana potions as often as possible, as opposed to the current 100mp/5 with only a 2min cooldown. I was going to post it, but then I re-read most of the thread and realised I'm arguing against what most people want. Most people want raiding changed to not require or allow multiple potions to be drunk.

I personally like that it requires quite a bit of preparation to raid (in a kind of Role-play way I guess). Makes it feel more epic. I am an alchemist purely for my own benefit and I farm all my own consumables. I used to run BM tribute, hand in zg heart and get every known consumable for loatheb tanking back in the day. I guess these days of requiring raid preparation are passing...

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Old 08/04/08, 3:39 AM   #208
Sabyn
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Originally Posted by rhen View Post
I did the math for my proposition a few posts back, and it hovers between 50-60mp/5 if you chug current mana potions as often as possible, as opposed to the current 100mp/5 with only a 2min cooldown. I was going to post it, but then I re-read most of the thread and realised I'm arguing against what most people want. Most people want raiding changed to not require or allow multiple potions to be drunk.

I personally like that it requires quite a bit of preparation to raid (in a kind of Role-play way I guess). Makes it feel more epic. I am an alchemist purely for my own benefit and I farm all my own consumables. I used to run BM tribute, hand in zg heart and get every known consumable for loatheb tanking back in the day. I guess these days of requiring raid preparation are passing...


There was nothing epic about farming 50 stacks of dreamfoil 3-5 times a week. That level of preparation several times a week gets old incredibly fast, and looses all meaning. If such things do add to the "epic" feel of some raids it is perfectly possible to do them without the millstone of consumables around our necks. I am sure there must be a few good ideas for prep beyond resist gear and consumables.

The idea of ZG heart / ony / nef heads is kinda cool. Hard to work the current mechanic into the actual preparation that makes sense for a raid.

Last edited by Sabyn : 08/04/08 at 4:01 AM.

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Old 08/04/08, 4:42 AM   #209
Zurgat
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Originally Posted by Sabyn View Post
There was nothing epic about farming 50 stacks of dreamfoil 3-5 times a week. That level of preparation several times a week gets old incredibly fast, and looses all meaning. If such things do add to the "epic" feel of some raids it is perfectly possible to do them without the millstone of consumables around our necks. I am sure there must be a few good ideas for prep beyond resist gear and consumables.

The idea of ZG heart / ony / nef heads is kinda cool. Hard to work the current mechanic into the actual preparation that makes sense for a raid.
I recall Wailing Caverns had a NPC druid at the start of the instance who would buff you when talked to.
So does slave pens at the end actually.

I'm hoping that mechanic would get used more often, as it does save a lot of buffing worries.

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Old 08/04/08, 7:57 AM   #210
Daboran
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Originally Posted by Zurgat View Post
I recall Wailing Caverns had a NPC druid at the start of the instance who would buff you when talked to.
So does slave pens at the end actually.

I'm hoping that mechanic would get used more often, as it does save a lot of buffing worries.
I can easily see that being developed along with timed events; "Beat X bosses in Y time and you get an npc spawn to buff you for Z boss"

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