The WotLK profession thread - Page 2

Ellerain · 07/29/08, 6:45 AM

Originally Posted by Tacitus

Yup. Blocking Shear with a 30s CD block is going to need some luck (or a 100% avoidance set, but those aren't exactly common).

Or you can remember that there are other tanking classes than warriors in the game.

Edit:

On the point of, actually, professions - anybody else think that relying on inscription to make enchanting scrolls leads to nowhere, especially with possibility of high-level enchant requiring high-level (read:expensive) scrolls? Getting inexpensive ones seemed like a chore bad enough, with serious cost attached it will lead to less demand from enchanters, less supply from inscriptors -> back to square one, eventually.

Dioneirra · 07/29/08, 6:47 AM

The glyph preview for druids shows that it will most likely be subject of a lot of rebalancing. The shown glyphs differ quite a lot in terms of usability even among the same glyph category (minor, major, lesser). While i do appreciate the approach of offering a glyph for almost every single ability, i'm not sure that it actually can be balanced. Right now not only the glyphs for spells itself but also the glyphs regarding different talent trees seems a little bit in need of more work. And sadly, everything points (at least right now) in the direction of certain decisions for 'must have for raiding' or 'must have for pvping'-glyphs. I would have liked to have glyphs with less severe effects, more in the direction of customization than effect changing. Although certain glyphs do show interesting ideas in terms of trade of effects, other seems to be much more in the original wording of just adding boni to existing abilities.

And of course i do expect them to be permanent like enchants, and only be subject to change for some severe costs. Everything else would be ridiculous, given the actual impact of some of the glyphs. What i would like to know, what type of glyph is the additional one for inscriptors?

Tacitus · 07/29/08, 6:50 AM

Originally Posted by Ellerain

Or you can remember that there are other tanking classes than warriors in the game.

Druids don't have a block. Death Knights (as far as we know) don't have a block. Holy Shield is only 30% block with a 10s CD (and as far as I know, shear ignores miss).

But that's not the point of this thread. Can we stop this before Kaubel comes stomping in and locks the whole thread?

Originally Posted by Dioneirra

I would have liked to have glyphs with less severe effects, more in the direction of customization than effect changing. Although certain glyphs do show interesting ideas in terms of trade of effects, other seems to be much more in the original wording of just adding boni to existing abilities.

It seems that that most of the druids Glyphs were Greater Glyphs, we still have two other classes of Glyphs, for example the penguine polymorph for mages.

see:
* Glyph of Natural Force (Class: Druid) - Empowers a Greater Glyph to avoid interruption caused by damage while casting your Wrath spells by 50%.
* Glyph of Moonfire (Class: Druid) - Empowers a Lesser Glyph to reduce the rage cost of your Demoralizing Roar by 20.
* Glyph of Thorns (Class: Druid) - Empowers a Minor Glyph to reduce the mana cost of your Thorns spells by %s1%.

Shakes · 07/29/08, 6:51 AM

Originally Posted by Hildegard

Interaction is a good thing as long as it doesn't get too annoying.

One mans "good thing" is another man's "too annoying". The fact of the matter is that anything that requires interaction typically requires one to subject themselves to the trade channel. I don't know about anyone else's server, but on the one I play on, that qualifies as "too annoying".

I really wish they'd remove all need for profession interaction by having a buyers market version of the AH, where you cold put up what you want to buy and the price you're willing to pay, and letting people fill those orders. Forcing you to sit in trade asking for something and hoping that someone happens to be around who can do it, on the trade channel and paying attention isn't my idea of fun at all.

Zurgat · 07/29/08, 6:59 AM

Originally Posted by Tacitus

Blacksmithing already makes Belt Buckles. [Iron Buckle]

True, they're not used a lot, but perhaps engineering could make some belt "enhancements", say something like an utility belt to add to your normal belt.

True, but I was more thinking along the lines of gear enchants, much like we have leatherworking patches for legs and other parts.

Truesteel buckle of vindication.
Quicksilver buckle of haste.
etc.

Would not have to be a very large buff or enchant, but enough to make it worth trading with.

As for raid support professions, I had a thing up about that a while ago, but with WotLK coming up and new info being released it's already outdated.

The stat bonusses seen so far would still favour leatherworking as the primary profession at least 1 person per group needs.
After that enchanting and blacksmithing are closely tied with jewelcrafting. But it really depends on what other gems jewelcrafters get. Enchanting and blacksmithing each have the option for +2x20 stat points (assuming you dual wield), skinning 25, jewelcrafting +10 per gem you can use. (Probably no more than 4). Engineering, tailoring, jewelcrafting, herbalism are still fairly unknown.

It's reasonable to suspect herbalism will get something like mining and skinning, maybe +25 fixed spirit.
Inscription looks to be very powerful, but until we know what scribes will get that only they can use (1 extra socket) it'll be mostly speculating. It'll remain to be seen whether it can be offset against +40 stats like the above professions.

And I'm certainly still looking for a reason to drop engineering, or a good enough reason to stick with it.

Calixtus · 07/29/08, 7:07 AM

Originally Posted by Zurgat

Requiring interaction makes it hard for alts to be used as crafters though.

That's part of the point though. The less crafting you make possible via alts, or the harder you make it to aquire the recipies (... thus making it unlikely you'll get it on an alt) the more you increase the, well, "playability" of professions for individual players. If an alt can do everything I can do, I'm not particularly useful in regards to profession. Short of adding a limit to the number of characters per server (which has been done in other games) - or professions per server - there aren't that many ways to insure viability for professions for many players. Interaction requirements, is one way, Masteries, BoP recipies, rep recipies, raid recipies, lvl requirements for professions and so on, are other examples of similar systems. The only thing I don't get it why they're not taking steps to make it system-wide and not just enchanter-only.

Speaking of character development via professions, there's one thing about gathering profession that keeps irking me. The new stat bonuses are great, they really are, but... My main alchemist has been an alchemist since way before TBC, and all of TBC. If I leveled a second character, as fast as possible, and got him to 375 alchemy as fast as possible, there'd be a difference. My alt would lack many recipies - BoP, rep, BoE, discoveries - so he wouldn't be able to do as much. Where as my herbalist alt... There's nothing I can't do on my herbalist alt I can do on my herbalist main, despite significant difference in hours invested. The bonuses won't really change that. But that's not really what's irking me as much as the fact as what we have in BC is less than what we had in vanilla.

Finkle's Skinner, Pristine Hide of the Beast, Onyxia Scales, Core Leather, Bloodschythe, Bloodvine... They certainly weren't huge things, but they were... There. A gathering alt was that just dinged couldn't help with all of that (ignoring the raid instace requirements here

) you'd actually need a dedicated and well geared practicioner of the gathering profession. I miss that, and I don't understand why they didn't have it in BC.

songster · 07/29/08, 7:09 AM

Originally Posted by Shuror

Right now it seems that a majority of class spells will have Glyphs available, and all of the Glyphs scale with level.

This raises the question of when the Glyphs will be craftable. Unavoidably, some will be crafted at lower profession skill levels. If good glyphs are available at low skill, this will overpower Inscription in comparison to other professions at low levels and create a disproportionate demand for low-level herbs and other materials required.

Yup, just like jewelcrafting was OP because of all the gems you could cut at lower skill levels. Alternatively, not. Inscription also makes materials like parchments, ink and so on, scrolls, and low-power cosmetic glyphs. What on Earth makes you think they'll have to put overpowered high-end glyphs as low skill level items?

Zurgat · 07/29/08, 7:18 AM

Originally Posted by Calixtus

That's part of the point though. The less crafting you make possible via alts, or the harder you make it to aquire the recipies (... thus making it unlikely you'll get it on an alt) the more you increase the, well, "playability" of professions for individual players. If an alt can do everything I can do, I'm not particularly useful in regards to profession. Short of adding a limit to the number of characters per server (which has been done in other games) - or professions per server - there aren't that many ways to insure viability for professions for many players. Interaction requirements, is one way, Masteries, BoP recipies, rep recipies, raid recipies, lvl requirements for professions and so on, are other examples of similar systems. The only thing I don't get it why they're not taking steps to make it system-wide and not just enchanter-only.

That's the thing though, I doubt there's a single alchemist, enchanter, leatherworker or blacksmith who will be willing to make any lvl 1-300 craftables for you unless you bring a decent and out of proportions tip along with the mats.
If you can look at your alts for the more mundane craftables then you save them a lot of time, and yourself a lot of frustration trying to find someone to make the item for you. If I need something simple, i want to just make it and have it ready within minutes without having to spam a trade channel for the possible chance of getting scammed out of my materials, or bid on the AH in the hopes of winning the bid or paying a dozen times more than the item's worth.

BoP recipes are a good thing, and give the profession character. There's a limit to how far interaction should go though.
Ensuring that the high end, rare recipes are Bind on Pickup makes it so mainly high end guilds have the patterns. This makes the patterns rare, you're not likely to encounter scammers as they'd have a reputation to lose as a guild. But if almost nobody has the pattern on your server then you're just stuck with the earlier problem of having to spend hours in the trade channel to find someone.

Profession masteries are an option, but they'd have to be distilled into more than 3 categories. And, all trees should be worthwhile so you don't end up with "everyone" taking the same tree.

Requiring a player to find a scribe to insert or replace every single rune you carry would be over the top for sure.
I'd prefer them to be freely swappable like trinkets. Especially since some are just aesthetic effects like penguin poly.

pewsey · 07/29/08, 7:19 AM

Originally Posted by ZeroWashu

I saw the drum debuff listed as well. My concern is that what happens to BC fights? they can tailor the new instances to take into account the potion sickness and drum debuff but as these can be staples of some BC fights I wonder if they plan to revisit those encounters.

Whomever was in charge of tailoring in BC did a bang up job. You could easily equip any cloth based class for the end game for the most part with just everyday work. The other professions were not so well served.

As for Inscriptions being permanent or exchangeable.

I vote for exchangeable glyphs. I would have assumed they would be like sockets, the player can select when and if to replace them individually. It could be as bad as having to pay a NPC to clear them like talent resets are handled.

If they are implemented as exchangeable there are ways for Blizzard to put limits on it so that we don't see people flipping inscriptions during a raid. It could be as simple as requiring a fixed item similar to the blacksmiths anvil, tailors mana loom, or such.

With due respect, the tailoring was just too good. I would have liked to have seen all professions have a mix between the quality of the tailoring patterns, with an upgrade path like blacksmithing.

If you notched down tailoring a bit (say to T4 levels) and each level (T5, T6) gave out an upgrade path - it would have been perfect. The current T6 patterns which are retardedly good, but impossible to find could just require some tokens from Felmyst/Twins/Mu'ru for the tailors/LW/blacksmiths to upgrade the items.

Agreed with glyphs. I'm picking "jewelcrafting mixed with enchanting". I'd say the mats for them will be expensive enough to not hot-swap them, in the same way that you'd not hot-swap enchant on weapons or gems in gear (or at least the vast majority of the raiding populace wouldn't)

Ellerain · 07/29/08, 7:20 AM

Originally Posted by Calixtus

If an alt can do everything I can do, I'm not particularly useful in regards to profession. [...] The only thing I don't get it why they're not taking steps to make it system-wide and not just enchanter-only.

<special gathering stuff>

If somebody took a time leveling profession on an alt, he should be able to benefit from it (even on his other character). The disparity between crafting main and crafting alt is already covered via many means (you named them). There is absolutely no need to artificially require even more intercation by following enchanting-like system, because it is plainly annoying for many people.

And as for special gathering routines - there were Hyjal Mining nodes ^_^.

Zurgat · 07/29/08, 7:36 AM

Originally Posted by Ellerain

If somebody took a time leveling profession on an alt, he should be able to benefit from it (even on his other character). The disparity between crafting main and crafting alt is already covered via many means (you named them). There is absolutely no need to artificially require even more intercation by following enchanting-like system, because it is plainly annoying for many people.

And as for special gathering routines - there were Hyjal Mining nodes ^_^.

The hyjal gems were also available trough black temple drops though, and now badges.
The sunmotes and hearts of darkness fall into the quite useful category, and there's patterns that use them for most classes.

It would have been interesting to see an enchanting recipe or 2 that used them as well though.

Sometimes it's early in the morning where there's nobody online, it's great to just be able to log an alt then.
But yes, If able i prefer to make my own stuff in general, it saves time and grief.
If i don't have a pattern, then guild members are the second spot to look which generally pays off.

For WotLK, I'm sure we'll see something similar to the hearts and sunmotes again, we can't be sure whether the sunmote system will be used again, personally i think it's quite useful that way. For other materials, even if they're available only in raids most such materials will end up in the guildbank and not really benefit the individual crafter.

Liebestod · 07/29/08, 7:39 AM

Right now I'm surprised by how powerful these Glyphs are. The Healing Touch one is huge, for example, though it arguably won't change Resto playstyle very much. But at the same time, I can't help but see some of these as further precipitating the erosion of class uniqueness.. which is a debate in and of its own right, I suppose, along with the fact that the devs seem intent on making the game require skill by making abilities more and more complicated so that optimal rotations become more difficult to determine on the fly.

However, my excitement about glyphs are largely dampened in the same way my excitment about the new talents are - there will almost surely be a cookie-cutter glyph set to go along with your cookie-cutter talent build. Unless good glyphs are actually difficult to attain - and if they were, the complaints would be endless - then I'm not sure if they'd add much to the game that couldn't have been added through new talents already. Personally, I'm a fan of interesting gear and set bonuses that force you to change your playstyle as you progress in order to remain cutting-edge, like with a lot of Mages switching to Arcane when they got 2/5 T5 bonuses. I don't think you'll ever see much diversity in high-end builds, which is why I don't think introducing new options will genuinely lead to more customization, but I think if Blizz makes it so that your playstyle has to change several times throughout your character's progression (and not just because spec X outscales spec Y), that'd be interesting.

Okay, this is getting kinda tl;dr. But the overall point is that I hope the more radical glyphs become fairly rare items that you acquire through endgame PvE or PvP, and then you take them to Inscriptors (maybe with some other mats) and have them Inscribed with whatever ability you want. And then you adjust your playstyle. And as you continue to progress and get better glyphs, you have to do this several times. The alternate goal of glyps, promoting a diversity of customization, is probably a lost cause..

Hildegard · 07/29/08, 7:52 AM

I would personally favor more interaction. I can see the point if your server has the usual channel 2 spam, but on our server it is quite ok. Perhabs they should introduce better options for advertising or searching stuff than a channel. Maybe you could pay an NPC to announce what you offer or seek for a small fee and this could only be heard in trade districts.

There are many ways to promote interaction and the "I want something and I want it now" is always a bad approach. Every rogue wants wargleaves and you can fill in other stuff. The problem is that channel 2 is bad tool and not that interaction is bad by itself.

dlanod · 07/29/08, 7:55 AM

My gut feeling (and only that) would be that Inscriptions should be "poppable" for a gold fee, either paid to an Inscriber or some NPC. The glyphs end up in your inventory so you can swap them when respeccing. Seems like a fairly nice solution to me.

Alcemon · 07/29/08, 7:57 AM

Originally Posted by Zurgat

It's reasonable to suspect herbalism will get something like mining and skinning, maybe +25 fixed spirit.

The perks for Herbalists are probably [Fel Blossom]s V2 like the following:

They don't seem to be that interesting (though a lot better than the original, for sure).

Apparently these do not share cooldown with Healthstones, but they do share the cooldown with drums.
Having a mana regen one would be nice.