The WotLK profession thread - Page 21

PSGarak · 08/07/08, 5:39 PM

This really is a quantitative question, as much as people seem to be arguing black-and-white qualitative scenarios. Putting in time raiding the content should give rewards for raiding the content. Putting in more time, or effort, or skill, should generate more rewards. A linear relationship (double time = double rewards) is a hardcore-friendly, casual-unfriendly game. I'm not saying it's necessarily a bad one, but it's not the one I signed up for and it's not the one that blizzard has chosen to design.

Farming for consumables (and farming in general) nets you some performance advantage in raids that nets you some reward advantage (usually in amount of raid resets to get a first kill, or ability to kill a boss at all). This isn't a bad thing. What's a bad thing, currently, is the amount. Both the amount of farming needed to supply the potions, and the amount of raid-benefit you get from using the potions. Both are way out of line with other "taxes" in the game, and the power-level is way out of line from what one could reasonably expect from consumables, based on comparisons to gear upgrades.

I suppose this thought was really a slow-simmering response to Smurrf:

Originally Posted by Smurrf

What people aren't taking into account is that people will still have to pony up for potions, just for a reduced number of them. The absolute only thing that's changing here is the number of potions that will be used during a fight. For those guilds that EXPECT people to chain-pot currently, they're still going to be expected to use that pot every single serious fight attempt.

Basically I'm agreeing about what will happen, but saying that actually is the ideal result. You may think that still having to pot changes nothing fundamental, but I think that dropping the number of pots changes everything that needed changing. Kind of like how dropping the number of elixers you needed to raid from N to two was actually a good fix, and it's totally acceptable to need 2.

I do understand your complaints, though, that the power of potions suddenly stops scaling when they're a one-per-fight, which means that the provides a smaller and smaller regen benefit for a long fight. I don't see any way around that problem that doesn't also address the issue of tactical invariability (PRES BUTAN 4 FITE), which I think is the larger issue with potions currently. I'll admit that, because of this, it is an unideal solution but still feel it's a massive step up from where we are currently, both from the economic and gameplay perspectives.

Harwin · 08/07/08, 5:56 PM

Originally Posted by PSGarak

I do understand your complaints, though, that the power of potions suddenly stops scaling when they're a one-per-fight, which means that the provides a smaller and smaller regen benefit for a long fight. I don't see any way around that problem that doesn't also address the issue of tactical invariability (PRES BUTAN 4 FITE), which I think is the larger issue with potions currently. I'll admit that, because of this, it is an unideal solution but still feel it's a massive step up from where we are currently, both from the economic and gameplay perspectives.

Blizzard could still allow multiple potions in longer fights.

Suppose the reliquary ghosts not only restored full health/mana but also cleared the debuff? You'd still have a local tactical decision (mana or haste or protection?) on phase 1, and at the end of it you don't just "drink a mana potion", because you get full mana.

Or if Illidan cleared it w/ shadow prison. If you've gotten to that point without having to drink, you drink a mana pot, so there's an incentive to not need other pots, and then you've got a pot left for the emergency at the end.

The risk is that, like with the Illidan example, you basically try to save needing any others, and then drink a mana pot right before the debuff clears, but it's still a smaller buff.

Or perhaps a tears of the goddess-type mechanic, which clears the debuff and your pot cooldowns. So you can drink 2 mana pots back to back, if you need it, or you can drink one, clear the debuff/cooldown, and then wait to see what else you might need.

All of those keep the tactical benefit, and Blizzard can pick which fights get extra pots.

Nezralix · 08/07/08, 6:19 PM

How complicated do you really want to make this potion mechanic? Do you want a dozen little subrules and "but wait!" exceptions just to let players milk some imperceptible benefit out of them in raid scenarios?

They've got a simple and rather intuitive solution that solves most of the problems that annoyed people about potions; why the need to force them into raids? You might as well be arguing that rested experience should give you some kind of large benefit to raiding if you plan carefully enough. The fact that they've implemented this solution at all implies that they don't want potions to be a staple of the raid game like they have been since at least AQ40. Just stop with the half-baked "elegant solutions" designed to enable players to keep on chain chugging.

PSGarak · 08/07/08, 6:37 PM

Encounter-specific pot-sickness-clearing does seem a bit cheesy. It's specifically explicitly ramping up the logistic concerns of one particular fight. However, your ideas did make me think that perhaps Blessing (Hand) of Protection clearing potion sickness wouldn't be an altogether bad thing. At it's core, you're basically trading one oh-shit button for another, and it gives HoP something to be used for on fights where the person taking damage needs their agro. And I would be greatly amused if mages had to blow Iceblock in addition to all their other cooldowns in order to maximize their DPS.

Harwin · 08/07/08, 6:49 PM

Originally Posted by Nezralix

How complicated do you really want to make this potion mechanic? Do you want a dozen little subrules and "but wait!" exceptions just to let players milk some imperceptible benefit out of them in raid scenarios?

They've got a simple and rather intuitive solution that solves most of the problems that annoyed people about potions; why the need to force them into raids? You might as well be arguing that rested experience should give you some kind of large benefit to raiding if you plan carefully enough. The fact that they've implemented this solution at all implies that they don't want potions to be a staple of the raid game like they have been since at least AQ40. Just stop with the half-baked "elegant solutions" designed to enable players to keep on chain chugging.

Sorry, I wasn't trying to bring back chain chugging, just illustrating ways in which Blizzard could change the fact that potion power varies so much between long and short fights, if they so desired. I'm not saying any or all of them are good design decisions, just pointing out that if it becomes a problem, it can be addressed for specific encounters if necessary(mainly from a losing "oh-sh**" buttons perspective - Archimonde for instance wants all such buttons I can give my raiders to push)

Scurn · 08/07/08, 7:07 PM

Originally Posted by Nezralix

How complicated do you really want to make this potion mechanic? Do you want a dozen little subrules and "but wait!" exceptions just to let players milk some imperceptible benefit out of them in raid scenarios?

They've got a simple and rather intuitive solution that solves most of the problems that annoyed people about potions; why the need to force them into raids? You might as well be arguing that rested experience should give you some kind of large benefit to raiding if you plan carefully enough. The fact that they've implemented this solution at all implies that they don't want potions to be a staple of the raid game like they have been since at least AQ40. Just stop with the half-baked "elegant solutions" designed to enable players to keep on chain chugging.

I'm not arguing for an elegant solution to replace potion sickness. I like the restriction of one per fight. What I don't like is how boring mana potions are. There's no reactive element to them at all other than hey I'm missing x amount of mana time to use it. I don't really see this changing even with potion sickness unless the basic mechanic is changed or there are more interesting potion choices made available so we have to decide if the mana potion is worth using over the others.

Prinsesa · 08/07/08, 9:48 PM

Farming and grinding repeated content is an aspect of MMOs as a genre.

Before WoW, grinding monsters pointlessly for hours on end was accepted as an aspect of MMOs as a genre (and still is, to a large extent)

Before WoW, being unable to kill mobs outside of a group for selected "support" classes was accepted as an aspect of MMOs as a genre

Before WoW, fighting over boss spawns in outdoor areas was accepted as an aspect of MMOs as a genre.

Just because it has always been like this does not mean it should change, and WoW's earth shattering success has precisely been the result of making a game that said "No, it's not fun, and we're not going to do it like that" in the face of a genre that refused to change its ways since the original EverQuest.

Jerry · 08/08/08, 5:28 AM

Originally Posted by Scurn

What I don't like is how boring mana potions are. There's no reactive element to them at all other than hey I'm missing x amount of mana time to use it.

What this change means is that you really should plan each fight as if you were NOT using a mana potion. Then, if something bad happens (someone dies, the dps is unsufficient and the enrage timer is coming), you can react correctly to it by using the perfect potion.

As a side note, the longer the fight, the less interesting a mana potion is, as other source of mana regeneration will become more and more important. Yet a carefully timed destruction or haste potion can give a good benefit, whatever the length of the fight.

Duilliath · 08/08/08, 5:38 AM

Seriously, what is it with all this alchemy blabbing ? Nothing new is being added, just more rehashed stuff "Oh noes ! We want to chain-chug" vs "It's not fun!".

We got that in the first 4-5 posts. Blizzard doesn't give a rat's ass about how profitable a profession is and specifically reduces their benefit if they are too profitable. Crafting professions are not your main money maker. Gathering professions never were affected. Alchemy is not an exception.

Now quit it please unless there's something of interest to share, such as an actual change to the potion sickness.

In the meanwhile, most other professions have been completely ignored, even Inscription which is far more interesting than Alchemy losing its potion market.

Prinsesa · 08/08/08, 5:53 AM

Just to recap on what we DO know about WOTLK Professions:

* Miners gets a STA boost as a profession-specific perk

* Skinners get a critical strike boost as a profession-specific perk

* Herbalists get a Heal-over-time ability and consumables, such as Deadnettle as profession-specific perks.

* Alchemy received the potion sickness debuff to limit potions to once per combat, but got Mixology as a profession-specific perk. Mixology increases the stats gained from Elixirs and Flasks by 20%

* Blacksmithing gets to put sockets on weapons and belts as "constantly in-demand" products, as well as sockets on gloves and bracers as profession-specific perks.

* Engineering gets to apply special Engineering-esque abilities to their items such as rocket-power to boots, parachute abilities to cloaks, haste abilities to gloves and rocket launchers on an as-yet-undetermined slot. Only Engineers can use these activated abilities, and they replace the traditional enchants. Scopes for ranged weapons continue as the "constantly in-demand" products, while a Motorcycle land mount is a new profession-specific perk. Other engineering gadgets include a deployable Auction House NPC and a deployable mailbox.

* Leatherworking received the Tinnitus debuff to limit Drum buffs to once every 5 minutes, but received BOP Leg Armors as a profession-specific perk

* Tailoring gets to create "Embroideries" which are applied to cloaks in a manner similar to spellthreads and leg armors. Embroideries provide special abilities such as a chance to deal additional Holy damage on spell hit, a chance to restore mana on spell cast, or a chance to proc extra armor penetration. These embroideries replace the traditional enchants and are a profession-specific perk. Spellthreads continue to be a "constantly in-demand" product, with an additional PvE/healing-oriented variant of SPI/spell power as opposed to STA/spell power. Like Leatherworking, Tailoring will also have spellthreads with higher-than-average stats as a profession-specific perk.

* Jewelcrafting has the ability to create "Perfect" gems when cutting Uncommon gems - these supposedly provide more stats than the Uncommon gem, but it is unknown if thet provide more than Rare or Epic gems. It is also unknown if these Perfect gems are BOE or BOP. Special "Dragon's Eye" gems with higher-than-average stats continue to be JC's profession-specific perk, with the added bonus of matching any of the three socket colors, regardless of the stats provided.

* Enchanting has had its new enchants released. There are also recipes for upgradable BOP epic Wands, similar to the Thunder/Deep Thunder/Stormherald line of upgradable epic maces for Blacksmithing, although their stats have not been finalized as of yet.

Inscription:

* Will produce Scrolls of <Stats> as their "constantly in-demand" product, meant to slightly make up for missing buffs (like Divine Spirit) without surpassing them, or in some cases provide another layer of buffs all their own (such as a Scroll of Strength)

* Will produce Glyphs that modify the abilities of classes. Some trivially (change into a Polar Bear), some non-trivially (Healing Touch becomes Flash Healing Touch).

* Each player will have 3 major and minor Glyph slots, with Inscribers getting a 4th Glyph slot as a profession-specific perk.

* We do not know how Glyphs will interact with respecs, but that would largely determine if Glyphs are a one-shot deal or another "constantly in-demand" product

* Inscription will draw most of its materials from Herbalism's herbs, milling them the same way a Jewelcrafter prospects a Miner's ores.

* Inscription will interact with Enchanting by allowing enchants to be placed on Scrolls, which can then be sold separately and applied without an enchanter. Newer scrolls have since been revealed with a level 35 minimum requirement, allowing TBC enchants to be placed on them. It can be expected that a third scroll for WOTLK level minimum requirements will be implemented as well.

Cadfael · 08/08/08, 6:02 AM

Herbalism might be renamed to Herb gathering.

Jerry · 08/08/08, 6:16 AM

Originally Posted by Prinsesa

* We do not know how Glyphs will interact with respecs, but that would largely determine if Glyphs are a one-shot deal or another "constantly in-demand" product

The UI code in the most recent build show no possibility to move / disable / remove Glyphs. The confirmation message when placing a glyph in a slot is :

CONFIRM_GLYPH_PLACEMENT = "Are you sure you want to place this glyph in slot %d? Any glyph currently in the slot will be replaced.";

So it looks similar to gems. Although it may change, at least the original design is for glyph to work for character like gem work for items.

Malleus · 08/08/08, 6:36 AM

Originally Posted by Harwin

I pay a monthly fee for this game. I expect that, after that fee, I am able to have my cake and eat it too. I pay Blizzard the same amount of money regardless of whether I farm or don't farm outside of raids - I don't see why I have to spend my time as well.

By which logic we should all be getting full sets of best in slot epics in our mailbox, because we all pay the same fee. Why should we have to spend our time as well?

You paid for the right to play the game, and consumable collecting is part of playing the game. Complaining about it is like paying your road tax and renewing your driver's licence, then complaining that you have to pay for petrol if you want to drive.

Getting back to the consumables issue itself: if players can use consumables, then hardcore players will use the maximum amount of consumables that they can benefit from. All fights must therefore be balanced around that maximum, no matter what it is. If casters can only drink one mana potion per fight, then they will - in which case, why not eliminate mana potions entirely and give everyone a larger base mana pool?

One alternative is to adjust the utility of certain potions and design fights around that. Resistance potions, for example: buff them to shield twice the amount of damage that a corresponding rank health potion would heal, and suddenly you have a strategic decision added. When you get to the boss in Azhol-Yanub with his Breath of Random Nobbling fire attack that ticks for 20k over 4 seconds, you have to think seriously about whether you top up your mana or hold back in case he Breathes on you.

Prinsesa · 08/08/08, 6:45 AM

If casters can only drink one mana potion per fight, then they will - in which case, why not eliminate mana potions entirely and give everyone a larger base mana pool?

That is, in fact, EXACTLY what they are trying to do:

* Mana Spring becoming raid-wide
* Ret Paladins and Surv Hunters joining Shadow Priests as mana batteries
* Everyone getting in-combat mana regen abilities
* Etc., etc.

Which is besides the fact that they do not even need to give everyone a larger base mana pool upon eliminating mana pots to begin with. You simply have to design fights around the idea that mana users no longer have an extra +140 MP5 on top of your projected gear level for that fight.

Juice · 08/08/08, 11:10 AM

We've had enough discuss on the Alchemy Potion Sickness change, particularly on what appears to be degenerating into a hardcore vs. casual discussion. Any further babbling that doesn't offer new information will be infractioned.