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Old 08/13/08, 6:30 AM   #466
urotas
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Originally Posted by ZeroWashu View Post
I am curious about inscriptions, has anyone encountered inscriptions which only work on talent granted powers? Say for example a pyroblast specific inscription? Those would pose a problem if the talents specs were severely changed depending on the role.
Not only are there glyphs for talented abilities, but there are glyphs giving severe disadvantages in an area of the game. Take these three glyphs for example:

Glyph of Moonfire - Increases the periodic damage of your Moonfire ability by 75%, but initial damage is decreased by 90%.
Glyph of Mindflay - Increases the range of your Mind Flay spell by 5 yards but it no longer reduces the target's movement speed.
Glyph of Avenger's Shield - Your Avenger's Shield hits -2 fewer targets but for 100% more damage.

The moonfire glyph is very good for pve, but gives you a severe disadvantage in pvp. The mindflay glyph may be very useful in some pve boss fights, useless in others, and crippling for yourself for pvp. The avenger's shield glyph is good for boss fights, but a disadvantage for aoe tanking. With glyphs like these you can actually be worse at a specific part of the game compared to someone who doesn't have any glyphs at all.

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Old 08/13/08, 7:59 AM   #467
ZeroWashu
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Originally Posted by urotas View Post
The moonfire glyph is very good for pve, but gives you a severe disadvantage in pvp. The mindflay glyph may be very useful in some pve boss fights, useless in others, and crippling for yourself for pvp. The avenger's shield glyph is good for boss fights, but a disadvantage for aoe tanking. With glyphs like these you can actually be worse at a specific part of the game compared to someone who doesn't have any glyphs at all.
Well its glyphs like those you listed which make me want to believe they should be no more expensive than pots/elixirs. You just swap them out on an as needed basis. If they work like 'permanent' pots I think it would be a great mechanic. If they work like gems I won't be too much of a fan. Cost will depend on just how rare the ingredients get. Yet this can create tiers from which we won't feel the need to replace specific glyphs, only the lesser ones.

Example, if they were structured around class and then talent builds it could setup a system where the class one is expensive but less likely to be changed throughout the life of the character but the talent ones which need cheap mats are swapped on demand without much regard. So the class one would be like comparing flask costs to the talent ones at elixir cost. The class level gylph would rely on one rare item (like fel lotus is to flasks) and other regular availability items.

So tier it like.
Class, very powerful but generic (like agility/ap bonus to hunters, some form of permanent haste for mages)
Ability, target a specific one (like +x to fireballs as all mages have them, +x to hots etc)
Talent, target to talent granted abilities.

Cost structure would be similar, Class level would be highest and it would go down from there. Now of course some talent rebuilds might be better supported by a different class level glyph but only for those going for the ultimate mini max... for the majority it would serve regardless.

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Old 08/13/08, 8:37 AM   #468
kysta
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Originally Posted by Ellyh View Post
Probably not, certainly not if your a tank in pve and a healer in PvP. You just won't have any glyphs in common between the two specs.
Sure you would, that is practically two of the same thing. Any sort of glyph that increases survivability would help in both cases to some degree.

Originally Posted by Duilliath View Post
Why ? It feels completely counter-intuitive to what Blizzard has done so far, which is to make life easier on everyone, from Joe Casual to Jack Hardcore.

They could've upped the Respec limit when TBC came. They did no such thing. Instead, they introduced the respecs costs dropping over time. They introduced more gold through dailies. They introduced more gold still from more dailies, upping the dailies limit and having raid bosses drop more money.
They are (talking about) introducing a free respec between two saved specs, which again defeats the monetary cost attached.

Why, in the light of all that, would they want to make respeccing more prohibitive ? They've repeatedly stated they like people participating in all parts of the game (much to the Arena crowd's dismay, as they're 'forced' into Battlegrounds). There is no single reason to consider they'd want to move away from that stance.
Because currently, talents have such a huge effect on a character that it's simply not viable to perform a role against your talent spec unless it's trivial content anyway. So blizzard is giving free talent spec switching. On the other hand, glyphs sound like like an interesting extension of the talent system but compared to the changes based on your talent tree the benefits of the glyphs are rather small, and you could easily perform a role without the best possible glyphs in most cases.

And then as far as glyphs, if the cost is high enough it forces players to make decisions about what role they want to be optimized for. I don't see this as a flip-flop from any previous stance. It's not like you can change race between pvp and pve, even if for example orc warriors are better at pvp than tauren warriors, but tauren is better for pve tanking. I think blizzard saw how trivial the talent respec cost was at 50g, and rather than increase it and upset a lot of players they are going to just make the glyph system the more or less permanent character customization system.

I could be totally wrong, but I think it's just as likely of a possibility as free multiple glyph specs.

Originally Posted by urotas View Post
Not only are there glyphs for talented abilities, but there are glyphs giving severe disadvantages in an area of the game. Take these three glyphs for example:

Glyph of Moonfire - Increases the periodic damage of your Moonfire ability by 75%, but initial damage is decreased by 90%.
...
The moonfire glyph is very good for pve, but gives you a severe disadvantage in pvp.
Then obviously if you are a druid who likes the option to spam moonfire in pvp, you should not take the moonfire glyph. I like the way glyphs have both advantages and drawbacks, hopefully players have to carefully consider which glyphs they take instead of mindlessly taking the 4 best raiding glyphs and then switching to the 4 best pvp glyphs twice every week.

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Old 08/13/08, 10:27 AM   #469
Tharia
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The problem with glyphs is the same than chainpotting or stacking flasks and elixirs. Blizzard needs to balance encounters around the fact that many people will use everything to enhance their chances on killing the boss, so the boss has to be tuned accordingly often making it mandatory for "casual" raids to do it, too if they want to stand a chance at beating the encounter in a "reasonable" time, and yes, some glyphs have a big impact. The changes to flasks and pots clearly indicate that they want to make a sort of baseline that can be expected of everyone and is not too expensive and restrict everything that goes beyond.
Therefor I wouldn't expect expensive reglyphing and me personally I would hate it, because even with my paladin alt I switch roles in kara/ZA/Heroics sometimes three times or more per evening just because someone else comes online and wants to join the group and I just don't like being suboptimal in any of my roles just because glyphs are to expensive. Of course i could do the heroic without optimal glyphs but it's way more fun to be the best you possibly could be.

Either it is really cheap or free or totally restricted and I don't think it will be restricted because it contradicts the respecc for free/take part of every part of the game thing and, as I said before, some glyphs would NEVER be used if you can't swap them (like aforementioned Mind Flay or Avanger's Shield Glyph)

/EDIT: typo, probably still some more there ^^

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Old 08/13/08, 12:03 PM   #470
Fondren
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Originally Posted by Tharia View Post
The problem with glyphs is the same than chainpotting or stacking flasks and elixirs. Blizzard needs to balance encounters around the fact that many people will use everything to enhance their chances on killing the boss, so the boss has to be tuned accordingly often making it mandatory for "casual" raids to do it, too if they want to stand a chance at beating the encounter in a "reasonable" time, and yes, some glyphs have a big impact.
But they DO re-tune encounters regularly.

Remember how impressed everybody was with the first guild on their server to clear Kara? Remember the pre-nerf Magtheridon before they simplified cube-clicking?

I'll never forget the sight of a shadow priest tanking Ragnaros shortly before the BC release.

Bosses are incredibly tough at release, making it possible for only the best of the best hardcore min/max guilds to succeed.

A series of nerfs and the introduction of easy "welfare" gear makes it possible for hardcore, midcore and "casual" guilds to have their turn. Many of these guilds maximize their consumables, and many do not. But eventually everybody has their turn.

Blizzard tunes encounters so that you can only be FIRST if you have time, skill and a fortune in consumables.

The auction house is my favorite form of PvP.

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Old 08/13/08, 12:20 PM   #471
erragal
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Originally Posted by kysta View Post


Then obviously if you are a druid who likes the option to spam moonfire in pvp, you should not take the moonfire glyph. I like the way glyphs have both advantages and drawbacks, hopefully players have to carefully consider which glyphs they take instead of mindlessly taking the 4 best raiding glyphs and then switching to the 4 best pvp glyphs twice every week.
I'm in agreement with this.

One thing I see so many people arguing for is "I want to be more versatile, have more flexibility, make it easier for me to switch between specializations". I understand the desire for easy/free secondary specs, but by lowering the cost instead of raising it they eliminate the idea of specialization in general.

What about advantages for those of us who WANT to specialize in PVE or PVP content? Don't you think there should be some systems where you can make a hard decision of "Ok I'll be sacrificing a lot of PVP/PVE viability, but I don't care because I just want to focus on PVE/PVP".

As a PVE balance druid I love the moonfire glyph, and I don't want it to be cheap or easy for me to switch things up. If I specialize in PVE content, I should get some sort of bonus. If someone specializes in PVP content, they deserve something a bit extra. Glyphs are a PERFECT place to put this sort of decision. You can make the choice to focus on PVE or PVP through your Glyph choices, or be more generalized. Profession choices are going to allow for the same thing in the expansion.

Last edited by erragal : 08/13/08 at 12:23 PM. Reason: Clarity

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Old 08/13/08, 12:26 PM   #472
Grayson Carlyle
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Originally Posted by kysta View Post
And then as far as glyphs, if the cost is high enough it forces players to make decisions about what role they want to be optimized for.
You CANNOT make people do that. You're making people who play more aspects of the game suffer more because they're enjoying more parts of the game. If you want to be competitive in PvP you must get the PvP glyphs, otherwise you're at an inherent disadvantage in an area where the difference between winning and losing is a single crit over more than a hundred thousand damage done. If you want to push the limits in PvE, then you must use the best possible raid glyphs, or you're at an inherent disadvantage.

You're trying to penalize the people who enjoy more of the game, which is the exact opposite of what you should be doing, either by making them put even more time in to fund their endeavours, or by limiting their capabilities. People who are interested in more aspects of the game should be rewarded.

Originally Posted by erragal View Post
As a PVE balance druid I love the moonfire glyph, and I don't want it to be cheap or easy for me to switch things up. If I specialize in PVE content, I should get some sort of bonus.
You have it backwards too. Noone should ever get a bonus for specializing except for their own personal skill. You should never limit what people can and cannot do in a game artificially like that.

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Old 08/13/08, 12:27 PM   #473
erragal
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Originally Posted by Tharia View Post

Either it is really cheap or free or totally restricted and I don't think it will be restricted because it contradicts the respecc for free/take part of every part of the game thing and, as I said before, some glyphs would NEVER be used if you can't swap them (like aforementioned Mind Flay or Avanger's Shield Glyph)

/EDIT: typo, probably still some more there ^^


I think it's a bit crazy to say they would NEVER be used. Especially in this community, where most people will do everything they can to maximize their performance. That also implies there are no or very few players that focus only on PVE/Raid content, and don't care about the drawbacks.

It's only a drawback if you want everything to be free/no consequences/no specialization. I'm surprised how many people posting are opposed to having options for specialization, is homogeneity that desirable to everyone?

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Old 08/13/08, 12:33 PM   #474
Grayson Carlyle
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Originally Posted by erragal View Post
It's only a drawback if you want everything to be free/no consequences/no specialization. I'm surprised how many people posting are opposed to having options for specialization, is homogeneity that desirable to everyone?
There's a reason the arena realms have everyone in the same gear with the ability to choose any race/class, and I'll give you a hint, it's not homogeneity.

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Old 08/13/08, 12:36 PM   #475
erragal
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Originally Posted by Grayson Carlyle View Post
You CANNOT make people do that. You're making people who play more aspects of the game suffer more because they're enjoying more parts of the game. If you want to be competitive in PvP you must get the PvP glyphs, otherwise you're at an inherent disadvantage in an area where the difference between winning and losing is a single crit over more than a hundred thousand damage done. If you want to push the limits in PvE, then you must use the best possible raid glyphs, or you're at an inherent disadvantage.

You're trying to penalize the people who enjoy more of the game, which is the exact opposite of what you should be doing, either by making them put even more time in to fund their endeavours, or by limiting their capabilities. People who are interested in more aspects of the game should be rewarded.
The question becomes: are the people that want to be at the very top of both aspects of the game, really going to care what the cost is? Shouldn't there be a cost to be the BEST at both aspects of the game? Why should it be easy to specialize in multiple things? Why shouldn't you be a little bit limited if you want to casually enjoy both aspects of the game? You have a free secondary talent specialization, and alternate gear (Which you had to put time in to acquire additional). Should gear be applicable in all situations with no differentiation at all? It hurts people interested in more aspects of the game that they have to farm multiple sets of gear, as well. They also have to enchant it differently, as well. They have to put more time into that.

Why shouldn't you reward people that want to focus on only one aspect? Is that supposed to be considered a poor playstyle decision?

I hate using ridiculous realworld analogies, but they do have some merit: Rarely is there a world-class decathlete or pentathlete that is the best in the world at any (And certainly not ALL) of their individual events. Clearly this is a game, but why shouldn't dedication and specialization be rewarded? There are plenty of people who play just for that, and certainly take offense to the idea that someone can spend thirty seconds and a small amount of money (Or none) to become equal to them.

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Old 08/13/08, 12:37 PM   #476
kysta
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Originally Posted by Tharia View Post
The problem with glyphs is the same than chainpotting or stacking flasks and elixirs. Blizzard needs to balance encounters around the fact that many people will use everything to enhance their chances on killing the boss, so the boss has to be tuned accordingly often making it mandatory for "casual" raids to do it, too if they want to stand a chance at beating the encounter in a "reasonable" time, and yes, some glyphs have a big impact.

...

Therefor I wouldn't expect expensive reglyphing and me personally I would hate it, because even with my paladin alt I switch roles in kara/ZA/Heroics sometimes three times or more per evening just because someone else comes online and wants to join the group and I just don't like being suboptimal in any of my roles just because glyphs are to expensive.
I agree to an extent, that blizzard will balance encounters based around everything available.

I simply disagree with your conclusion, which is that hardcore raiders will respec glyphs to raid.

Maybe blizzard intends that the hardcore raiders glyph for raiding and suffer slightly in pvp as a result. Maybe blizzard doesn't want you to be the best at healing AND the best at tanking AND the best at DPS all on the same character just by throwing money into respec costs. Perhaps blizzard's intention is that raiders sacrifice a little bit of pvp capability in order to take the best possible raiding glyphs.

I mean, that is what WoW is all about. You have DPS classes that sacrifice the ability to tank or heal in order to put out a little bit more DPS than the hybrids. You don't see mages crying about the inability to spec into healing or tanking do you? It's all part of the deal, you give up capabilities in some roles to be better at the one you prefer.

If you really want to be able to fill 3 roles optimally, you can always level three characters.

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Old 08/13/08, 12:42 PM   #477
Haphnet
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Originally Posted by kysta View Post

If you really want to be able to fill 3 roles optimally, you can always level three characters.
I think you're missing the point that people are trying to get at. It's not necessarily that they want to fill 3 roles fully optimally at the expense of other classes. It's that if glyphs are swappable people WILL swap them to be as optimal as they can be for their class and spec.

Even if a Prot paladin, or a Warrior, or a Resto druid is "sub-optimal" for a given encounter, if he can become "more optimal" through the use of glyphs he will do so.

Originally Posted by Fellwraith View Post
[Y]ou will tank 3 mobs, and only 3 mobs. 5 shalt thou not tank, nor shalt thou tank 4. Thou shalt not tank 2 mobs unless it is on the way to tanking 3 mobs.

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Old 08/13/08, 12:46 PM   #478
erragal
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Originally Posted by Grayson Carlyle View Post
There's a reason the arena realms have everyone in the same gear with the ability to choose any race/class, and I'll give you a hint, it's not homogeneity.
I was targeting that more towards the idea that everyone can be everything at once with minimal effort. There's no difference between one druid and another because they don't have any decisions to make.

Why shouldn't you limit what people can and cannot do? Why is it artificial? Technically even having classes makes everything 'artificial'. It's a game, there are supposed to be restrictions/limitations/choices. That's where the fun is at, in a PVE game.

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Old 08/13/08, 12:49 PM   #479
 dragon12
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Why shouldn't you reward people that want to focus on only one aspect? Is that supposed to be considered a poor playstyle decision?
I mean, that is what WoW is all about. You have DPS classes that sacrifice the ability to tank or heal in order to put out a little bit more DPS than the hybrids. You don't see mages crying about the inability to spec into healing or tanking do you? It's all part of the deal, you give up capabilities in some roles to be better at the one you prefer.
I think you're both kinda missing the point. PvE and PvP are two totally separate games. Blizzard have said (I don't have a link, but I know it's been referred to previously in one of the WotLK threads here) that they don't want any obstacles between people enjoying and being competitive at both PvE and PvP subgames. Hence the reduction in talent respec cost/inconvenience.

Adding glyphs that are only useful for one subgame or the other, and then making it prohibitive to change your glyphs when you want to change game, is directly opposite to their intention when reducing the respec cost.

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Old 08/13/08, 12:50 PM   #480
kysta
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Originally Posted by Haphnet View Post
I think you're missing the point that people are trying to get at. It's not necessarily that they want to fill 3 roles fully optimally at the expense of other classes. It's that if glyphs are swappable people WILL swap them to be as optimal as they can be for their class and spec.

Even if a Prot paladin, or a Warrior, or a Resto druid is "sub-optimal" for a given encounter, if he can become "more optimal" through the use of glyphs he will do so.
Not if the cost is high enough and the benefit small enough.

See BOP jewelcrafting gems, see enchanting ring enchants.

If glyphs are cheap and easy to change, yes I'll agree with you. However that remains a big unknown at this point.

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