The WotLK profession thread - Page 33

Grayson Carlyle · 08/13/08, 12:54 PM

Originally Posted by erragal

That's where the fun is at, in a PVE game.

Bingo. And your argument just fell apart.

Because PvE is about earning rewards.
And PvP is about proving your capabilities.

Yes, if the game was only PvE, I would fully support specialization in the form of inscription. But, it's not. PvP requires an even playing field. My tank set is far from ideal, and that's the consequence of putting the majority of my effort into my DPS set.

Remove inscription effects from PvP and I'm sure almost noone would care that their holy shield glyph didn't help in the least when they specced ret for a DPS fight. But I'm pretty sure even more people would be upset that they lose out on a[nother] whole profession because they focus on PvP.

Haphnet · 08/13/08, 12:56 PM

Originally Posted by kysta

Not if the cost is high enough and the benefit small enough.

See BOP jewelcrafting gems, see enchanting ring enchants.

If glyphs are cheap and easy to change, yes I'll agree with you. However that remains a big unknown at this point.

It was just discussed on the previous page how there are people who level enchanting simply to enchant their rings and then drop it. That cost is so astronomically prohibitive that it does prevent more people from doing it, but certainly not all.

Even if glyphs are very expensive they aren't likely to approach that level of cost which means the desire for people to "respec" their glyphs will probably be much more frequent.

Also, they have several of the current glyphs released and many of them are certainly not a small benefit.

kysta · 08/13/08, 1:07 PM

Originally Posted by Haphnet

It was just discussed on the previous page how there are people who level enchanting simply to enchant their rings and then drop it. That cost is so astronomically prohibitive that it does prevent more people from doing it, but certainly not all.

But it is viewed as acceptable by the majority, isn't it? I don't see any threads posted in outrage about how stupid it is that to be optimal in pvp and pve you need to retrain your professions twice a week, do you? It's because nobody does it. The cost *does* work. Someone might retrain professions 2-3 times per expansion, and maybe some really crazy players will do it once a month, but that isn't the same as doing it twice a week.

This would be like going from tailoring to engineering twice a week so you can wear frozen shadoweave for raids and goblin rocket launchers for arena. It just doesn't happen, it's not viable, even though it may give some small benefit.

Calantus · 08/13/08, 1:24 PM

Originally Posted by erragal

The question becomes: are the people that want to be at the very top of both aspects of the game, really going to care what the cost is? Shouldn't there be a cost to be the BEST at both aspects of the game? Why should it be easy to specialize in multiple things? Why shouldn't you be a little bit limited if you want to casually enjoy both aspects of the game? You have a free secondary talent specialization, and alternate gear (Which you had to put time in to acquire additional). Should gear be applicable in all situations with no differentiation at all? It hurts people interested in more aspects of the game that they have to farm multiple sets of gear, as well. They also have to enchant it differently, as well. They have to put more time into that.

Why shouldn't you reward people that want to focus on only one aspect? Is that supposed to be considered a poor playstyle decision?

I hate using ridiculous realworld analogies, but they do have some merit: Rarely is there a world-class decathlete or pentathlete that is the best in the world at any (And certainly not ALL) of their individual events. Clearly this is a game, but why shouldn't dedication and specialization be rewarded? There are plenty of people who play just for that, and certainly take offense to the idea that someone can spend thirty seconds and a small amount of money (Or none) to become equal to them.

Here's some perspective: WoW is a computer game.

Also, you can pay as much gold in the world and you won't be as good as a 2400 player unless you actually have the skills. Nobody on the first page is afraid some PVE scrub is going to own them because they changed their glyphs.

erragal · 08/13/08, 1:24 PM

Originally Posted by Grayson Carlyle

Bingo. And your argument just fell apart.

Because PvE is about earning rewards.
And PvP is about proving your capabilities.

Yes, if the game was only PvE, I would fully support specialization in the form of inscription. But, it's not. PvP requires an even playing field. My tank set is far from ideal, and that's the consequence of putting the majority of my effort into my DPS set.

Doesn't really cancel my argument, it just brings up the very obvious fact: wow is a poor competitive game. It needs to be rigged/highly restricted to get even some level of competitive balance (As all competitive games/events are). It's the reason many PVE-oriented people give for hating PVP: just by having it in the game design decisions are going to be made that limit options. (I don't hate PVP, but I do not like losing options)

I don't see why that fact should prevent PVE specializations. PVP is far more about class choice/team composition at the highest level, than it is 5% damage or 60 stamina. And Blizzard doesn't even seem to care about profession bonuses being balanced between PVE/PVP. If the tailoring embroideries end up tailoring only, the Lightweave one is almost required for any dps caster to PVP at the top level due to the power of burst damage in pvp.

EDIT: I honestly feel the profession-specific bonuses are going to end up being a much larger source of chagrin for those who want to play PVE/PVP equally. Even if you have to buy a new glyph regularly to switch, I couldn't see how that could compare to the time/cost of profession switching.

Grungo · 08/13/08, 1:45 PM

I think a fair compromise in terms of permanency versus cost of glyphs would be to give inscribers the ability to create a cheap, one-time-use item that allows you to remove a glyph from a socket back into your inventory, and keep the costs of the glyphs themselves highly expensive. This would keep the glyphs as the high-cost, one-time purchases of the profession, and would add the scroll of erasure (or whatever) to the stat scrolls as an additional cheap, mass-produced item. Habitual respeccers would still pay the large cost twice (or three times, or four, or however many roles you want glyphs for), but that's no more prohibitive than building that many sets of gear. The scroll to remove a glyph to your inventory would be cheap enough that re-glyphing constantly would be viable, but would keep inscription profitable in the long-term (because I honestly don't think the stat scrolls would be enough to do so on their own).

Or maybe I just find funny the image of a scroll of silly-putty to copy the ink off your skin.

Sydane · 08/13/08, 2:10 PM

It's funny how the glyph argument degenerated into almost the same couple of directions as the potion sickness argument did. Except now with Glyphs, you throw PvP into the mix and it gets all the more heated. It seems clear that Blizzard has already made the decisions about how the profession is going to work, I just wish they'd release that information so we could put an end to all the speculation and start discussion the actual profession itself, and concepts such as leveling.

I'd strongly suggest that everyone putting so much energy and effort into debating how the system "should be" take a deep breath and realize you're probably going to end up disappointed in some way. Especially those who continue to insist the inscriptions should be reusable, because we already know for a fact that they won't be. It seems like the inevitable solution is going to be simply disabling Inscriptions completely during arenas, which is unfortunate, but probably the only choice they really have.

Grungo · 08/13/08, 2:42 PM

Originally Posted by Sydane

It seems like the inevitable solution is going to be simply disabling Inscriptions completely during arenas, which is unfortunate, but probably the only choice they really have.

It's certainly not the only choice the have. I would be very surprised if they turned off an entire profession in pvp because it might be unbalanced. What they'll probably do is balance it as much as they can for pvp, much to the chagrin of people who have that profession and don't pvp (see also rocket boot nerf).

Some of the inscriptions that have already been released are clearly intended for pvp. Here are a few, for example:

Glyph of Psychic Scream 01 (Priest) (Class: Priest) - Increases the duration of your Psychic Scream by 3 sec.
Glyph of Dispel Magic 01 (Priest) (Class: Priest) - Your Dispel Magic also heals your target for 3% of maximum health if it removes a damaging effect. (yes, also useful in pve, but I'd argue it's far stronger for/intended for pvp)
Glyph - Frost Shock 01 (Shaman) (Class: Shaman) - Increases the duration of your Frost Shock by 2 sec.
Venomous Mana (Glyph Passive) - Empowers a Greater Glyph to grant your Viper Sting ability an additional 15% chance to resist dispel effects.

Also, if their intention was to disable glyphs during arena, they would design ones that intentionally hinder pvp utility, such as:

Glyph of Moonfire - Increases the periodic damage of your Moonfire ability by 75% but initial damage is decreased by -90%.
Glyph of Mind Flay 01 (Priest) (Class: Priest) - Increases the range of your Mind Flay spell by 5 yards but it no longer reduces the target's movement speed.

saiyajinmaster · 08/13/08, 3:23 PM

There was an interview on Wowvault, I linked it on my guild board where people were asking about inscription too, in that it sounds like Tigole clearly states that you can swap your glyphs around either from your ivnentory (lame) or from another tab in your spellbook or something.
Jeff Kaplan Talks About Wrath of the Lich King -- World of Warcraft: The Burning Crusade Vault
30:00 almost exactly, glyph section starts at about 28 or 29 minutes in. Not a ton of great info in it, but some stuff I hadn't heard before.

ZeroWashu · 08/13/08, 4:15 PM

Originally Posted by Grayson Carlyle

Bingo. And your argument just fell apart.

Because PvE is about earning rewards.
And PvP is about proving your capabilities.

Yes, if the game was only PvE, I would fully support specialization in the form of inscription. But, it's not. PvP requires an even playing field. My tank set is far from ideal, and that's the consequence of putting the majority of my effort into my DPS set.

Remove inscription effects from PvP and I'm sure almost noone would care that their holy shield glyph didn't help in the least when they specced ret for a DPS fight. But I'm pretty sure even more people would be upset that they lose out on a[nother] whole profession because they focus on PvP.

I would prefer they move the world of PvP and PvE further apart by making BG/Arena really about skill. In that regard your earnings in BG/Arena are usable only there. We don't have an even playing field, its far from it. Just an arena and its pot luck half the time who your going to meet. Too much of it can simply be tipped by gear. I would love to see it where you have an arena set that is just that, only works there and in BGs. Your points in either can make you better but there must be a baseline that everyone has access too without requiring PvE work. All those bought by rep blue items should instead be simply available to anyone wanting to do an Arena/BG and only equipped while there.

Then it becomes easier to have a Arena/PvP talent tab and having the same for gear and glyphs. Make everything purchasable for the gear through the system from enchants to pots. You get up tier by simple time spent with victories providing quicker access. While you will still get to situations of higher geared teams appearing their gear will keep them in a different tier, if not they quickly hit a ceiling because while they can earn to tier X they can't make it to tier Y.

Fabinas · 08/13/08, 4:33 PM

I dont understand this re-glyph obsession some people have. If you respec to healer and use your enchanted gear you will still be a VERY competent healer. You dont have to re-glyph for healer and i doubt Blizzard is going to make encounters that need people use certain glyphs to achieve it.

THe only ones who should be really whining about the inability to swap glyphs are the people who want to PvP and PvE at the same time. Alas, noone can have his cake whole and eat it to. With the "homogenisation" of class abilities Blizzard is trying to do (so that 10 man and 25 man dungeons are possible to be made with any combination of the 30 specs, as long there's tanks, healers and dps), the only way to differentiate yourself are the glyphs. If you want to swap them, so that you can get your Season 10 gear, go ahead, but be prepared to pay the price.

Mode · 08/13/08, 4:34 PM

Originally Posted by saiyajinmaster

There was an interview on Wowvault, I linked it on my guild board where people were asking about inscription too, in that it sounds like Tigole clearly states that you can swap your glyphs around either from your ivnentory (lame) or from another tab in your spellbook or something.
Jeff Kaplan Talks About Wrath of the Lich King -- World of Warcraft: The Burning Crusade Vault
30:00 almost exactly, glyph section starts at about 28 or 29 minutes in. Not a ton of great info in it, but some stuff I hadn't heard before.

Quick and dirty transcription of the relevant section:

It's a brand new profession. Open up your spellbook sean this is a very early interface and this will change
There's a new tab that all players get whether you're an inscriber or not. This allows you to up six glyphs in your spellbook. What glyphs do is modify existing spells and abilities. Only inscribers could make the glyphs. If J was an inscriber he'd make me one.
"What??
"I'd pay him gold to make me one."
"There you go."
Suppose I'm a warrior, maybe my thunderclap would hit 6 targets instead of 4 would be an example of a specific ability I could modify. He would give me that glyph I could keep several glyphs on my character and then I could swap which ones into the glyph section for whatever content was relevant. We've also got a concept going of major vs minor glyphs. So major glyphs would modify core abilities. Minor would be things that are more about convenience or cosmetic. So a convenience example, maybe a priest could buff a raid without having to buy any reagents.
<jabber>
Another example would be alternate mage polymorphs.

Nurru · 08/13/08, 4:37 PM

Originally Posted by Fabinas

I dont understand this re-glyph obsession some people have. If you respec to healer and use your enchanted gear you will still be a VERY competent healer. You dont have to re-glyph for healer and i doubt Blizzard is going to make encounters that need people use certain glyphs to achieve it.

This is acceptable if you don't care about your performance. However, most of us do and simply saying "just suck it up and don't be optimal" isn't going to cut it.

Originally Posted by fabinas

THe only ones who should be really whining about the inability to swap glyphs are the people who want to PvP and PvE at the same time. Alas, noone can have his cake whole and eat it to. With the "homogenisation" of class abilities Blizzard is trying to do (so that 10 man and 25 man dungeons are possible to be made with any combination of the 30 specs, as long there's tanks, healers and dps), the only way to differentiate yourself are the glyphs. If you want to swap them, so that you can get your Season 10 gear, go ahead, but be prepared to pay the price.

So you feel it's acceptable to have to pay a respec cost plus replace every glyph every time you want to raid or do arena? Really? All that serves is to punish players participating in both aspects of the game.

Fondren · 08/13/08, 4:38 PM

Originally Posted by saiyajinmaster

There was an interview on Wowvault, I linked it on my guild board where people were asking about inscription too, in that it sounds like Tigole clearly states that you can swap your glyphs around either from your ivnentory (lame) or from another tab in your spellbook or something.

Interesting. So basically the purchase of a glyph would be permanent, but you would move them back and forth between "active" and "inactive" tabs. You would only delete obsolete glyphs, for organizational or space saving purposes.

This would solve most of the problems we've been discussing so far.

If this is the case; inscription will be a strong money maker in the beginning, then trickle off in the months after release.

However, a "consumable glyph" arrangement would be a better long-term money maker.

Sydane · 08/13/08, 4:47 PM

Nothing in the interview indicates that you can swap glyphs out, only that you can swap them in. Data mining from the client shows that removing a glyph destroys it. The logical conclusion is, they intend glyphs to be relatively inexpensive, such that you won't mind or may even want to swap them frequently. Even if they cost a fortune, dailies are going to give you 25 gold each. There's no epic flying to buy this time. Complaining about the expense of something, when we don't even know what the expense is, is pointless.

Plenty of us have no problem whatsoever with the idea of having to reglyph if we want to min/max. Plenty of other people choose to put 50g rare gems in their gear instead of 200g epic ones. The game has choices, and virtually all of them have always meant being the best means spending and doing the most. After all these years, with gold being easier to get now more than ever, why on earth should that change.