Combat Ratings at level 85 (Cataclysm) - Page 11

sp00n · 09/12/08, 9:50 AM

Originally Posted by Whitetooth

At level 70, 7.4 ArP rating reduces enemy armor by up to 1%.

Do we have an idea what that 'up to 1%' means?
I see multiple possibilities:
- a random number between 0 and 1
- a random number between x and 1 (alike weapon damage range)
- a simple hard cap, as in you cannot have more than 100% armor penetration

Rerox · 09/12/08, 9:53 AM

Originally Posted by sp00n

Do we have an idea what that 'up to 1%' means?
I see multiple possibilities:
- a random number between 0 and 1
- a random number between x and 1 (alike weapon damage range)
- a simple hard cap, as in you cannot have more than 100% armor penetration

If a mob has zero Armor you can not reduce it any further.
Standard Blizz-wording.

Modal · 09/12/08, 10:06 AM

Originally Posted by Whitetooth

Commands:
/dump GetParryChance().." "..GetCombatRating(CR_PARRY).." "..GetCombatRatingBonus(CR_PARRY).." "..select(1, UnitDefense("player"))+select(2, UnitDefense("player"))
/dump GetDodgeChance().." "..GetCombatRating(CR_DODGE).." "..GetCombatRatingBonus(CR_DODGE).." "..select(1, UnitDefense("player"))+select(2, UnitDefense("player")).." "..select(1, UnitStat("player", 2))
.

Is there a way to get your chance to be missed from defense skill? I'm curious to know whether that increases at the same rate as dodge/parry or if it is still .04 per point.

Whitetooth · 09/12/08, 10:43 AM

Originally Posted by Modal

Maintankadin :: View topic - Defensive Stats in WotLK (diminishing returns)

Thank you for pointing me to your thread, I've read through the whole thread and its good to know I'm not alone on this.

About agi to dodge, tests from a friend showed that it too has deminishing effects:

+agi from gear/buffs (no def/dodge rating)	additional dodge from base (2.3220000267029 @ 115 agi)	+agi/+dodge
121	1.721002579	70.30785514
154	2.190250874	70.31158022
155	2.204469681	70.31169508
171	2.431964874	70.31351555
180	2.559926033	70.31453162
183	2.60257864	70.31487817
199	2.830053329	70.31669613
212	3.014867783	70.31817489
236	3.356044292	70.32088359
367	5.217829704	70.33575659

Whitetooth · 09/12/08, 10:50 AM

Originally Posted by Modal

Is there a way to get your chance to be missed from defense skill? I'm curious to know whether that increases at the same rate as dodge/parry or if it is still .04 per point.

Nope, there isn't any API that will tell you your missed chance as far as I know.

Modal · 09/12/08, 10:58 AM

Originally Posted by Modal

About agi to dodge, tests from Matthew Gaalswyk show that it too has deminishing effects

Really? I tested this on my enhancement shaman, who has lots of agi gear, and found that it gave dodge at exactly the linear rate I would expect on live. I didn't save the numbers because the result was uninteresting, but I checked many different combinations.

I wonder if this varies depending on class?

That was also, I think, 1 build ago or maybe 2. Perhaps it's changed. I'll check again.

Whitetooth · 09/12/08, 1:01 PM

Originally Posted by Modal

Really? I tested this on my enhancement shaman, who has lots of agi gear, and found that it gave dodge at exactly the linear rate I would expect on live. I didn't save the numbers because the result was uninteresting, but I checked many different combinations.

I wonder if this varies depending on class?

That was also, I think, 1 build ago or maybe 2. Perhaps it's changed. I'll check again.

I think its becuase your test results were limited to 2 decimal places from the char window, which is really not enough for accurate theorycrafting.

Modal · 09/12/08, 1:17 PM

Originally Posted by Whitetooth

I think its becuase your test results were limited to 2 decimal places from the char window, which is really not enough for accurate theorycrafting.

Well, I'm still using the char window, but here are my results, redoing the test on my enhancement shaman (Level 70, untalented, no defense or dodge rating):

Agility		Dodge %		Dodge per Agi
61		4.11		-----                  << Baseline/Naked
105 (+44)	5.90 (+1.79)	.0406818
143 (+82)	7.43 (+3.32)	.0404878
195 (+134)	9.54 (+5.43)	.0405224
228 (+167)	10.87 (+6.76)	.0404790
265 (+204)	12.37 (+8.26)	.0404901
324 (+263)	14.75 (+10.64)	.0404563
430 (+369)	19.04 (+14.93)	.0404607

Looks to me like there is some small variation, probably due to rounding, but no significant trend.

Satrina · 09/12/08, 1:26 PM

Originally Posted by Modal

Is there a way to get your chance to be missed from defense skill? I'm curious to know whether that increases at the same rate as dodge/parry or if it is still .04 per point.

The paperdoll frame in the default UI uses num = GetDodgeBlockParryChanceFromDefense() then formats the tooltip as "Increases chance to Dodge, Block and Parry by (num). Decreases chance to be hit and critically hit by (num)". Based on how things are looking now, I think the UI is maybe lagging behind the mechanics.

Whitetooth · 09/12/08, 2:34 PM

I had a friend of mine(Imbamoo, Level 80 Warrior) help me do some testing on Defense, results show Dodge and Parry from Defense also have diminishing returns.

Also, the amount of Dodge and the amount of Parry given from Defense are not the same.

Defense	Dodge	Parry	+Defense	+Dodge	+Parry	+Dodge/+Defense	+Parry/+Defense
400	2.2268002033	5.0000000000
401	2.2686409950	5.0418405533	1	0.0418407917	0.0418405533	0.0418407917	0.0418405533
402	2.3104813099	5.0836806297	2	0.0836811066	0.0836806297	0.0418405533	0.0418403149
403	2.3523213863	5.1255197525	3	0.1255211830	0.1255197525	0.0418403943	0.0418399175
404	2.3941609859	5.1673579216	4	0.1673607826	0.1673579216	0.0418401957	0.0418394804
405	2.4360001087	5.2091956139	5	0.2091999054	0.2091956139	0.0418399811	0.0418391228
406	2.4778389931	5.2510328293	6	0.2510387897	0.2510328293	0.0418397983	0.0418388049
408	2.5615153313	5.3347043991	8	0.3347151279	0.3347043991	0.0418393910	0.0418380499
413	2.7706995010	5.5438699722	13	0.5438992977	0.5438699722	0.0418384075	0.0418361517
414	2.8125352859	5.5857009888	14	0.5857350826	0.5857009888	0.0418382202	0.0418357849
421	3.1053736210	5.8784971237	21	0.8785734177	0.8784971237	0.0418368294	0.0418331964
432	3.5655088425	6.3385305405	32	1.3387086391	1.3385305405	0.0418346450	0.0418290794
440	3.9001221657	6.6730446815	40	1.6733219624	1.6730446815	0.0418330491	0.0418261170
452	4.4019951820	7.1747260094	52	2.1751949787	2.1747260094	0.0418306727	0.0418216540
460	4.7365455627	7.5091204643	60	2.5097453594	2.5091204643	0.0418290893	0.0418186744

Modal · 09/12/08, 3:06 PM

So, I'm trying to use the /dump command to get more accurate numbers, but even though I installed Chatter I can't get the copy text feature to work. I click the button, and then alt-tab to notepad and there is nothing to paste. Any idea what I'm doing wrong?

Modal · 09/12/08, 3:38 PM

Ok, you're right--Agility does give slightly diminishing returns on dodge. Without rounding I see the trend on my shaman (again, level 70, untalented):

+Agility	+Dodge			+Agility/+Dodge
4		0.1619415283203		0.040485382080075
8		0.3238797187805		0.040484964847563
12		0.4858136177063		0.040484468142192
24		0.9715952873230		0.040483136971792
29		1.1739945411682		0.040482570385110
44		1.7811589241027		0.040480884638698
70		2.8334565162658		0.040477950232369
107		4.3306951522827		0.040473786469932
140		5.6658105850219		0.040470075607299
172		6.9602327346798		0.040466469387673
211		8.5375003814698		0.040462087115970
279		11.2867879867558	0.040454437228515
369		14.9239540100098	0.040444319810325

However, this seems pretty insignificant. After stacking 369 +agility, I've lost less than .02% dodge chance due to this effect:

369 * 0.040444319810325 = 14.923954010009925
369 * 0.040485382080075 = 14.939105987547675

The difference between multiplying by the coefficient at 369 agi and at 4 agi is 0.01515197753775

landsoul · 09/13/08, 3:33 PM

I found the 50% armor reduction value (important for calculating armor curves) for level 80

15259 armor = 50.04% redution

Z = 15250 +/- 7

any ideas to come up with an experiment to find the 83/boss Z value would be appreciated.

Roywyn · 09/13/08, 4:28 PM

Originally Posted by landsoul

I found the 50% armor reduction value (important for calculating armor curves) for level 80

15259 armor = 50.04% redution

Z = 15250 +/- 7

any ideas to come up with an experiment to find the 83/boss Z value would be appreciated.

By finding the level 79 (78/77) values for 50% damage reduction and interpolating.
It was linear from 1-63 in vanilla, then 1-60 and 60-73 in BC.

So it should be linear from from ~74-83 in Wrath.

Actually, it was posted before that AC conversion hasn't changed yet.
http://elitistjerks.com/836091-post47.html

From that, a level 83 opponent means:
levelModifier = 83 + 4.5*(83-59) = 191
You get 50% damage reduction when temp == 1, i.e.
Armour = 10*(8.5*levelModifier+40) = 16635, and 15232.5 vs. level 80 mobs.

Conclusion

For 50% reduction, you need 15232.5 AC vs. level 80 mobs, 16635 AC vs. level 83 bosses.
To cap, you'd need 45697.5 AC vs. level 80 mobs, 49905 AC vs. level 83 bosses.

Grayson Carlyle · 09/13/08, 6:32 PM

Doing some weapon-less Armor Penentration tests at level 70 on level 36 raptors, no sunder:

290-291 damage, Enemy Armor Reduced by up to 25.39%, actual hit: 263 damage. 9.31% damage reduction.
156-157 damage, Enemy Armor Reduced by up to 0.00%, actual hit: 138-139 damage. 11.53% damage reduction.
Difference: 23.8%

Level 68 felboars, no sunder:

290-291 damage, Enemy Armor Reduced by up to 25.39%, actual hit: 200 damage. 31.03% damage reduction.
156-157 damage, Enemy Armor Reduced by up to 0.00%, actual hit: 98-99 damage. 37.17% damage reduction.
Difference: 19.7%

Level 68 felboars, 5xsunder (2600 armor reduction):

290-291 damage, Enemy Armor Reduced by up to 25.39%, actual hit: 232 damage. 20% damage reduction.
156-157 damage, Enemy Armor Reduced by up to 0.00%, actual hit: 117 damage. 25% damage reduction.
Difference: 25%

I can't really think at the moment to figure out their exact armor and how the percent reductions work, but at least here's some data points.

It appears that against the boar, the effect of the % armor reduction is roughly the same as the live implementation (1316 armor penetration was about half as effective as the 2600 armor reduction from Sunder). No nerfs, definitely, and an increase in effectiveness on the higher armor bosses where we currently see less return from armor penetration.