Elitist Jerks Combat Ratings at level 85 (Cataclysm)

09/12/08, 9:50 AM   #151
sp00n
Bald Bull

Night Elf Rogue

Wrathbringer (EU)
 Originally Posted by Whitetooth At level 70, 7.4 ArP rating reduces enemy armor by up to 1%.
Do we have an idea what that 'up to 1%' means?
I see multiple possibilities:
- a random number between 0 and 1
- a random number between x and 1 (alike weapon damage range)
- a simple hard cap, as in you cannot have more than 100% armor penetration

Stopped Playing

09/12/08, 9:53 AM   #152
Rerox
Piston Honda

Dwarf Rogue

Proudmoore (EU)
 Originally Posted by sp00n Do we have an idea what that 'up to 1%' means? I see multiple possibilities: - a random number between 0 and 1 - a random number between x and 1 (alike weapon damage range) - a simple hard cap, as in you cannot have more than 100% armor penetration
If a mob has zero Armor you can not reduce it any further.
Standard Blizz-wording.

09/12/08, 10:06 AM   #153
Modal
Glass Joe

Windrunner
 Originally Posted by Whitetooth Commands: /dump GetParryChance().." "..GetCombatRating(CR_PARRY).." "..GetCombatRatingBonus(CR_PARRY).." "..select(1, UnitDefense("player"))+select(2, UnitDefense("player")) /dump GetDodgeChance().." "..GetCombatRating(CR_DODGE).." "..GetCombatRatingBonus(CR_DODGE).." "..select(1, UnitDefense("player"))+select(2, UnitDefense("player")).." "..select(1, UnitStat("player", 2)) .
Is there a way to get your chance to be missed from defense skill? I'm curious to know whether that increases at the same rate as dodge/parry or if it is still .04 per point.

09/12/08, 10:43 AM   #154
Whitetooth
Piston Honda

Orc Warlock

Ner'zhul
 Originally Posted by Modal Maintankadin :: View topic - Defensive Stats in WotLK (diminishing returns)
Thank you for pointing me to your thread, I've read through the whole thread and its good to know I'm not alone on this.

About agi to dodge, tests from a friend showed that it too has deminishing effects:

 +agi from gear/buffs (no def/dodge rating) additional dodge from base (2.3220000267029 @ 115 agi) +agi/+dodge 121 1.721002579 70.30785514 154 2.190250874 70.31158022 155 2.204469681 70.31169508 171 2.431964874 70.31351555 180 2.559926033 70.31453162 183 2.60257864 70.31487817 199 2.830053329 70.31669613 212 3.014867783 70.31817489 236 3.356044292 70.32088359 367 5.217829704 70.33575659

Last edited by Whitetooth : 10/28/08 at 8:27 PM.

09/12/08, 10:50 AM   #155
Whitetooth
Piston Honda

Orc Warlock

Ner'zhul
 Originally Posted by Modal Is there a way to get your chance to be missed from defense skill? I'm curious to know whether that increases at the same rate as dodge/parry or if it is still .04 per point.
Nope, there isn't any API that will tell you your missed chance as far as I know.

09/12/08, 10:58 AM   #156
Modal
Glass Joe

Windrunner
 Originally Posted by Modal About agi to dodge, tests from Matthew Gaalswyk show that it too has deminishing effects
Really? I tested this on my enhancement shaman, who has lots of agi gear, and found that it gave dodge at exactly the linear rate I would expect on live. I didn't save the numbers because the result was uninteresting, but I checked many different combinations.

I wonder if this varies depending on class?

That was also, I think, 1 build ago or maybe 2. Perhaps it's changed. I'll check again.

09/12/08, 1:01 PM   #157
Whitetooth
Piston Honda

Orc Warlock

Ner'zhul
 Originally Posted by Modal Really? I tested this on my enhancement shaman, who has lots of agi gear, and found that it gave dodge at exactly the linear rate I would expect on live. I didn't save the numbers because the result was uninteresting, but I checked many different combinations. I wonder if this varies depending on class? That was also, I think, 1 build ago or maybe 2. Perhaps it's changed. I'll check again.
I think its becuase your test results were limited to 2 decimal places from the char window, which is really not enough for accurate theorycrafting.

09/12/08, 1:17 PM   #158
Modal
Glass Joe

Windrunner
 Originally Posted by Whitetooth I think its becuase your test results were limited to 2 decimal places from the char window, which is really not enough for accurate theorycrafting.
Well, I'm still using the char window, but here are my results, redoing the test on my enhancement shaman (Level 70, untalented, no defense or dodge rating):

```Agility		Dodge %		Dodge per Agi
61		4.11		-----                  << Baseline/Naked
105 (+44)	5.90 (+1.79)	.0406818
143 (+82)	7.43 (+3.32)	.0404878
195 (+134)	9.54 (+5.43)	.0405224
228 (+167)	10.87 (+6.76)	.0404790
265 (+204)	12.37 (+8.26)	.0404901
324 (+263)	14.75 (+10.64)	.0404563
430 (+369)	19.04 (+14.93)	.0404607```
Looks to me like there is some small variation, probably due to rounding, but no significant trend.

Last edited by Modal : 09/12/08 at 1:26 PM.

09/12/08, 1:26 PM   #159
Satrina
Von Kaiser

Human Warrior

Stormrage
 Originally Posted by Modal Is there a way to get your chance to be missed from defense skill? I'm curious to know whether that increases at the same rate as dodge/parry or if it is still .04 per point.
The paperdoll frame in the default UI uses num = GetDodgeBlockParryChanceFromDefense() then formats the tooltip as "Increases chance to Dodge, Block and Parry by (num). Decreases chance to be hit and critically hit by (num)". Based on how things are looking now, I think the UI is maybe lagging behind the mechanics.

09/12/08, 2:34 PM   #160
Whitetooth
Piston Honda

Orc Warlock

Ner'zhul
I had a friend of mine(Imbamoo, Level 80 Warrior) help me do some testing on Defense, results show Dodge and Parry from Defense also have diminishing returns.

Also, the amount of Dodge and the amount of Parry given from Defense are not the same.

 Defense Dodge Parry +Defense +Dodge +Parry +Dodge/+Defense +Parry/+Defense 400 2.2268002033 5.0000000000 401 2.2686409950 5.0418405533 1 0.0418407917 0.0418405533 0.0418407917 0.0418405533 402 2.3104813099 5.0836806297 2 0.0836811066 0.0836806297 0.0418405533 0.0418403149 403 2.3523213863 5.1255197525 3 0.1255211830 0.1255197525 0.0418403943 0.0418399175 404 2.3941609859 5.1673579216 4 0.1673607826 0.1673579216 0.0418401957 0.0418394804 405 2.4360001087 5.2091956139 5 0.2091999054 0.2091956139 0.0418399811 0.0418391228 406 2.4778389931 5.2510328293 6 0.2510387897 0.2510328293 0.0418397983 0.0418388049 408 2.5615153313 5.3347043991 8 0.3347151279 0.3347043991 0.0418393910 0.0418380499 413 2.7706995010 5.5438699722 13 0.5438992977 0.5438699722 0.0418384075 0.0418361517 414 2.8125352859 5.5857009888 14 0.5857350826 0.5857009888 0.0418382202 0.0418357849 421 3.1053736210 5.8784971237 21 0.8785734177 0.8784971237 0.0418368294 0.0418331964 432 3.5655088425 6.3385305405 32 1.3387086391 1.3385305405 0.0418346450 0.0418290794 440 3.9001221657 6.6730446815 40 1.6733219624 1.6730446815 0.0418330491 0.0418261170 452 4.4019951820 7.1747260094 52 2.1751949787 2.1747260094 0.0418306727 0.0418216540 460 4.7365455627 7.5091204643 60 2.5097453594 2.5091204643 0.0418290893 0.0418186744

Last edited by Whitetooth : 09/12/08 at 2:44 PM.

 09/12/08, 3:06 PM #161 Modal Glass Joe   Modal Draenei Paladin   Windrunner So, I'm trying to use the /dump command to get more accurate numbers, but even though I installed Chatter I can't get the copy text feature to work. I click the button, and then alt-tab to notepad and there is nothing to paste. Any idea what I'm doing wrong?
 09/12/08, 3:38 PM #162 Modal Glass Joe   Modal Draenei Paladin   Windrunner Ok, you're right--Agility does give slightly diminishing returns on dodge. Without rounding I see the trend on my shaman (again, level 70, untalented): ```+Agility +Dodge +Agility/+Dodge 4 0.1619415283203 0.040485382080075 8 0.3238797187805 0.040484964847563 12 0.4858136177063 0.040484468142192 24 0.9715952873230 0.040483136971792 29 1.1739945411682 0.040482570385110 44 1.7811589241027 0.040480884638698 70 2.8334565162658 0.040477950232369 107 4.3306951522827 0.040473786469932 140 5.6658105850219 0.040470075607299 172 6.9602327346798 0.040466469387673 211 8.5375003814698 0.040462087115970 279 11.2867879867558 0.040454437228515 369 14.9239540100098 0.040444319810325``` However, this seems pretty insignificant. After stacking 369 +agility, I've lost less than .02% dodge chance due to this effect: 369 * 0.040444319810325 = 14.923954010009925 369 * 0.040485382080075 = 14.939105987547675 The difference between multiplying by the coefficient at 369 agi and at 4 agi is 0.01515197753775
 09/13/08, 3:33 PM #163 landsoul Myrmidon Champion     Landsoul Worgen Warrior   Alterac Mountains I found the 50% armor reduction value (important for calculating armor curves) for level 80 15259 armor = 50.04% redution Z = 15250 +/- 7 any ideas to come up with an experiment to find the 83/boss Z value would be appreciated.
09/13/08, 4:28 PM   #164
Roywyn
Bald Bull

Roywyn
Gnome Mage

No WoW Account (EU)
 Originally Posted by landsoul I found the 50% armor reduction value (important for calculating armor curves) for level 80 15259 armor = 50.04% redution Z = 15250 +/- 7 any ideas to come up with an experiment to find the 83/boss Z value would be appreciated.
By finding the level 79 (78/77) values for 50% damage reduction and interpolating.
It was linear from 1-63 in vanilla, then 1-60 and 60-73 in BC.

So it should be linear from from ~74-83 in Wrath.

Actually, it was posted before that AC conversion hasn't changed yet.
http://elitistjerks.com/836091-post47.html

From that, a level 83 opponent means:
levelModifier = 83 + 4.5*(83-59) = 191
You get 50% damage reduction when temp == 1, i.e.
Armour = 10*(8.5*levelModifier+40) = 16635, and 15232.5 vs. level 80 mobs.

Conclusion

For 50% reduction, you need 15232.5 AC vs. level 80 mobs, 16635 AC vs. level 83 bosses.
To cap, you'd need 45697.5 AC vs. level 80 mobs, 49905 AC vs. level 83 bosses.

Chaotic Meta Gems in Cataclysm: http://elitistjerks.com/f75/t106009-...2/#post1794256

DPS spec and class comparison in Naxxramas gear: http://code.google.com/p/simulationc...i/SampleOutput
The Blue Bar and you - the complete Fire Mage 2.4 mana compendium: http://elitistjerks.com/658230-post3191.html

And [Timbal's Focusing Crystal] doesn't proc on AM.
Neither does [The Egg of Mortal Essence] since 3.1.

 09/13/08, 6:32 PM #165 Grayson Carlyle Take what ye can;     Grayson Tauren Warrior   Turalyon Doing some weapon-less Armor Penentration tests at level 70 on level 36 raptors, no sunder: 290-291 damage, Enemy Armor Reduced by up to 25.39%, actual hit: 263 damage. 9.31% damage reduction. 156-157 damage, Enemy Armor Reduced by up to 0.00%, actual hit: 138-139 damage. 11.53% damage reduction. Difference: 23.8% Level 68 felboars, no sunder: 290-291 damage, Enemy Armor Reduced by up to 25.39%, actual hit: 200 damage. 31.03% damage reduction. 156-157 damage, Enemy Armor Reduced by up to 0.00%, actual hit: 98-99 damage. 37.17% damage reduction. Difference: 19.7% Level 68 felboars, 5xsunder (2600 armor reduction): 290-291 damage, Enemy Armor Reduced by up to 25.39%, actual hit: 232 damage. 20% damage reduction. 156-157 damage, Enemy Armor Reduced by up to 0.00%, actual hit: 117 damage. 25% damage reduction. Difference: 25% I can't really think at the moment to figure out their exact armor and how the percent reductions work, but at least here's some data points. It appears that against the boar, the effect of the % armor reduction is roughly the same as the live implementation (1316 armor penetration was about half as effective as the 2600 armor reduction from Sunder). No nerfs, definitely, and an increase in effectiveness on the higher armor bosses where we currently see less return from armor penetration.

 Elitist Jerks Combat Ratings at level 85 (Cataclysm)