Elitist Jerks Combat Ratings at level 85 (Cataclysm)
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09/21/08, 8:57 PM   #196
Rustik
Von Kaiser

Orc Warrior

Elune
 Originally Posted by Roywyn It seems like your dodge is calculated first, then your parry? If the [dodge at 300+x*25 => dodge at 300+(x+1)*25] lifetime increase is 1.21s, then maybe [dodge at 300+(x+1)*25 + parry at 300+x*25 => dodge at 300+(x+1)*25 + parry at 300+(x+1)*25] could be a 1.21s increase as well from the (x)-to-(x+1) parry increase as well, or something similar?

If this is true, wouldn't we still have to figure out where miss falls in this calculation? If it calculates it in a specific order, then miss would be first/second/third also.

Whitetooth pointed out that RATING does not effect another stat, but is it possible defense follows it's own formula, combining dodge/parry/miss as a whole, then parry/dodge rating affect their respective rating, by themselves?

Is there any way to determine actual miss chance except to go get swung at 5000 times? The character sheet only displays it before diminishing returns.

It's entirely possible I'm making this more complicated than it is...

EDIT FOR MATH: I decided to follow Roywyn's thought process:
If I've understood you correctly, you're saying that if I gain 25 defense, then it calculates in dodge first, netting a x second increase in lifespan, then it adds in parry, increasing lifespan -in relation to how long I live with the new dodge number-.

So I find the lifespan for 325 worth of dodge, plus 300 worth of parry, then compare it to the 325 defense for both. 300 defense combined included just to be thorough.

300 defense = 87.9923005104065% taken = 113.65 seconds

325 defense dodge, 300 defense parry = 86.9585447311401% taken = 115.00 seconds

325 defense = 85.9352912906832% taken = 116.37 seconds

350 defense dodge, 325 defense parry = 84.9255065917969% taken = 117.75 seconds

350 defense = 83.9458556175232% taken = 119.12 seconds

375 defense dodge, 350 defense parry = 82.9592156410214% taken = 120.54 seconds

375 defense = 82.0204391479489% taken = 121.92 seconds

400 defense dodge, 375 defense parry = 81.0561580657959% taken = 123.37 seconds

400 defense = 80.1557493209839% taken = 124.76 seconds

Looks like you were right. The increase from the split to the total was 1.37, 1.37, 1.38, and 1.39.

The increase from total to total was 2.72, 2.75, 2.8, 2.84.

Last edited by Rustik : 09/21/08 at 9:49 PM. Reason: Didn't realize spaces at the beginning of the line did auto-formatting gunk

09/21/08, 11:57 PM   #197
Whitetooth
Piston Honda

Orc Warlock

Ner'zhul
 Originally Posted by Roywyn Do you have a pure +dodge item ([Helm of Awareness] from Dire Maul, or [Charm of Alacrity] from an easy Hellfire quest)? I'd love to see how the numbers above with some fixed amount of dodge on top. I.e. 306def/Xdodge/0parry, 306def/Xdodge/20parry, 313def/Xdodge/0parry, 313def/Xdodge/20parry.
I used the [Arena Grand Master] for pure Dodge Rating.

Build: 8970
Name: Whitetooth (60 Warrior)
Base Defense: 300
Base Agi: 83

 Defense Dodge Rating Parry Rating Dodge% Parry% Increased Dodge% Increased Parry% 306 0 0 7.2580323219299 5.2497124671936 0.0000000000000 0.0000000000000 306 0 20 7.2580323219299 6.5900726318359 0.0000000000000 1.3403601646423 306 12 0 8.2859573364258 5.2497124671936 1.0279250144959 0.0000000000000 306 12 20 8.2859573364258 6.5900726318359 1.0279250144959 1.3403601646423
 Defense Dodge Rating Parry Rating Dodge% Parry% Increased Dodge% Increased Parry% 313 0 0 7.5482954978943 5.5377106666565 0.0000000000000 0.0000000000000 313 0 20 7.5482954978943 6.8618426322937 0.0000000000000 1.3241319656372 313 12 0 8.5694818496704 5.5377106666565 1.0211863517761 0.0000000000000 313 12 20 8.5694818496704 6.8618426322937 1.0211863517761 1.3241319656372

Cross testing with Defense, Dodge Rating and Parry Rating shows that increasing 1 stat does not affect the other.

Hotdogee@Ner'zhul US <Bahamut>
Author of RatingBuster

09/22/08, 12:36 AM   #198
Whitetooth
Piston Honda

Orc Warlock

Ner'zhul
Build: 8970
Name: Whitetooth (60 Warrior)
Base Defense: 300

 Defense Dodge Rating Parry Rating Dodge% Parry% Increased Dodge% Increased Parry% Agility 321 0 0 7.8776865005493 5.8625373840332 0.0000000000000 0.0000000000000 83 321 0 60 8.5295963287354 9.5704746246338 0.6519098281861 3.7079372406006 98 421 0 0 11.795427322388 9.5704746246338 3.9177408218387 3.7079372406006 83

We know currently in TBC at level 60: 60 Parry Rating gives 4% Parry, and 100 Defense also gives 4% Parry.

This test shows that regardless of the source, whether its from Parry Rating or Defense, the diminishing returns effects are calculated using the same formula.

So if we have the formula for dodge from defense, the same formula will work for dodge from agi, dodge rating, defense combined. The same goes for parry rating.

Last edited by Whitetooth : 09/22/08 at 4:01 PM.

Hotdogee@Ner'zhul US <Bahamut>
Author of RatingBuster

 09/22/08, 6:01 AM #199 Selmarix Piston Honda   Franya Dwarf Hunter   Turalyon (EU) So we know now that dodge, parry and probably also miss diminish separately from each other and the diminishing is done on that level and not on defense level. We also know that flat additions from talents do not diminish. Base dodge and parry does not seem like it is diminished either. So my guess is: Defense and Agi is calculated into dodge, parry and miss rating and the dodge and parry rating from gear added. So you get 3 ratings before diminishing. For each of the avoidance percentages there is a cap value: pcap, dcap and mcap. Then a function that gets closer and closer to the separate caps with increasing ratings is used to compute the avoidance percentage from gear. And last the flat additions from talents and the base value is added. The function could look similar to: 1/(pcap - p) = f(prating) with f as a low order function, probably linear. If that is the case, then the question is if the caps are different for different classes e.g. druids having a higher dodge cap to account for not having parry.
 09/22/08, 11:18 AM #200 Muphrid Don Flamenco   Muphrid Gnome Mage   Stormrage I'm not so sure, Selmarix. I basically performed a regression for 1/(1-avoidance) as a function of defense according to the long table of data earlier, and it came out to a fourth-order polynomial before I could eliminate trends in the residuals. Granted, as to why four and not five, I don't understand, but something's off about it, I think.
09/22/08, 11:28 AM   #201
Whitetooth
Piston Honda

Orc Warlock

Ner'zhul
After hours of work, used up over 40 excel spreadsheets and running multiple regression tools, this is what I got:

$x' = \frac{a}{1+\frac{b}{x}}$

$x'$ is the diminished stat before converting to IEEE754.
$x$ is the stat before diminishing returns.
$a$ is a constant, which also happens to be the cap.
$b$ is a constant.

Further research shows that b = 0.956*a, so we can write:

$\frac{1}{x'} = \frac{1}{a}+\frac{0.956}{x}}$

All floating calculations in wow are done with IEEE754 which has limited precision, it creates a rounding effect on the resulting data, the following formula will convert (x'+Base) to IEEE754 and back.

$k = \lfloor\log_{2}(x'+Base)\rfloor$
$x'' = (round(((x'+Base)/2^k-1)/2^{-23})*2^{-23}+1)*2^k$

$Base$ is the part unaffected by diminishing returns, which is 5 for the following parry from defense data.

Doing a nonlinear regression with my parry data from defense and we have:
$a=47.00351944$
$b=44.93536383$

 $x$ Parry Data $x''$ error 0.00 5.0000000000000 5.0000000000000 0.0000000000000 0.12 5.1251888275146 5.1251888275146 0.0000000000000 0.16 5.1667699813843 5.1667699813843 0.0000000000000 0.20 5.2082781791687 5.2082781791687 0.0000000000000 0.24 5.2497124671936 5.2497124671936 0.0000000000000 0.28 5.2910733222961 5.2910733222961 0.0000000000000 0.32 5.3323612213135 5.3323612213135 0.0000000000000 0.36 5.3735761642456 5.3735761642456 0.0000000000000 0.40 5.4147186279297 5.4147181510925 0.0000004768372 0.44 5.4557881355286 5.4557881355286 0.0000000000000 0.48 5.4967856407166 5.4967851638794 0.0000004768372 0.52 5.5377106666565 5.5377106666565 0.0000000000000 0.56 5.5785636901855 5.5785636901855 0.0000000000000 0.60 5.6193451881409 5.6193451881409 0.0000000000000 0.64 5.6600551605225 5.6600551605225 0.0000000000000 0.68 5.7006936073303 5.7006936073303 0.0000000000000 0.72 5.7412610054016 5.7412610054016 0.0000000000000 0.76 5.7817568778992 5.7817568778992 0.0000000000000 0.80 5.8221826553345 5.8221826553345 0.0000000000000 0.84 5.8625373840332 5.8625373840332 0.0000000000000 0.88 5.9028215408325 5.9028215408325 0.0000000000000 0.92 5.9430356025696 5.9430356025696 0.0000000000000 0.96 5.9831795692444 5.9831795692444 0.0000000000000 1.00 6.0232534408569 6.0232534408569 0.0000000000000 1.04 6.0632576942444 6.0632576942444 0.0000000000000 1.08 6.1031923294067 6.1031923294067 0.0000000000000 1.12 6.1430578231812 6.1430578231812 0.0000000000000 1.16 6.1828536987305 6.1828536987305 0.0000000000000 1.20 6.2225809097290 6.2225809097290 0.0000000000000 1.24 6.2622399330139 6.2622394561768 0.0000004768371 1.28 6.3018293380737 6.3018288612366 0.0000004768371 1.32 6.3413500785828 6.3413500785828 0.0000000000000 1.36 6.3808031082153 6.3808031082153 0.0000000000000 1.40 6.4201874732971 6.4201879501343 -0.0000004768372 1.44 6.4595050811768 6.4595046043396 0.0000004768372 1.48 6.4987540245056 6.4987540245056 0.0000000000000 1.52 6.5379352569580 6.5379352569580 0.0000000000000 1.56 6.5770492553711 6.5770497322083 -0.0000004768372 1.60 6.6160960197449 6.6160964965820 -0.0000004768371 1.64 6.6550760269165 6.6550760269165 0.0000000000000 1.68 6.6939888000488 6.6939888000488 0.0000000000000 1.72 6.7328348159790 6.7328352928162 -0.0000004768372 1.76 6.7716150283813 6.7716145515442 0.0000004768371 1.80 6.8103275299072 6.8103280067444 -0.0000004768372 1.84 6.8489751815796 6.8489751815796 0.0000000000000 1.88 6.8875560760498 6.8875560760498 0.0000000000000 1.92 6.9260706901550 6.9260711669922 -0.0000004768372 1.96 6.9645204544067 6.9645204544067 0.0000000000000 2.00 7.0029044151306 7.0029044151306 0.0000000000000 2.04 7.0412225723267 7.0412225723267 0.0000000000000 2.08 7.0794763565063 7.0794758796692 0.0000004768371 2.12 7.1176638603210 7.1176643371582 -0.0000004768372 2.16 7.1557869911194 7.1557874679565 -0.0000004768371 2.20 7.1938462257385 7.1938462257385 0.0000000000000 2.24 7.2318406105042 7.2318406105042 0.0000000000000 2.28 7.2697696685791 7.2697701454163 -0.0000004768372 2.32 7.3076357841492 7.3076357841492 0.0000000000000 2.36 7.3454370498657 7.3454370498657 0.0000000000000 2.40 7.3831744194031 7.3831748962402 -0.0000004768371 2.44 7.4208488464355 7.4208488464355 0.0000000000000 2.48 7.4584589004517 7.4584589004517 0.0000000000000 2.52 7.4960060119629 7.4960060119629 0.0000000000000 2.56 7.5334897041321 7.5334897041321 0.0000000000000 2.60 7.5709104537964 7.5709099769592 0.0000004768372 2.64 7.6082677841187 7.6082677841187 0.0000000000000 2.68 7.6455631256104 7.6455626487732 0.0000004768372 2.72 7.6827950477600 7.6827950477600 0.0000000000000 2.76 7.7199654579163 7.7199649810791 0.0000004768372 2.80 7.7570719718933 7.7570724487305 -0.0000004768372 2.84 7.7941179275513 7.7941179275513 0.0000000000000 2.88 7.8311009407043 7.8311014175415 -0.0000004768372 2.92 7.8680224418640 7.8680229187012 -0.0000004768372 2.96 7.9048829078674 7.9048829078674 0.0000000000000 3.00 7.9416809082031 7.9416813850403 -0.0000004768372 3.04 7.9784183502197 7.9784183502197 0.0000000000000 3.08 8.0150938034058 8.0150938034058 0.0000000000000 3.12 8.0517091751099 8.0517091751099 0.0000000000000 3.16 8.0882635116577 8.0882625579834 0.0000009536743 3.20 8.1247558593750 8.1247558593750 0.0000000000000 3.24 8.1611890792847 8.1611881256104 0.0000009536743 3.28 8.1975612640381 8.1975603103638 0.0000009536743 3.32 8.2338724136353 8.2338724136353 0.0000000000000 3.36 8.2701234817505 8.2701234817505 0.0000000000000 3.40 8.3063154220581 8.3063154220581 0.0000000000000 3.44 8.3424472808838 8.3424472808838 0.0000000000000 3.48 8.3785200119019 8.3785190582275 0.0000009536744 3.52 8.4145326614380 8.4145317077637 0.0000009536743 3.56 8.4504852294922 8.4504852294922 0.0000000000000 3.60 8.4863786697388 8.4863786697388 0.0000000000000 3.64 8.5222139358521 8.5222139358521 0.0000000000000 3.68 8.5579891204834 8.5579891204834 0.0000000000000 3.72 8.5937070846558 8.5937061309814 0.0000009536744 3.76 8.6293649673462 8.6293649673462 0.0000000000000 3.80 8.6649637222290 8.6649646759033 -0.0000009536743 3.84 8.7005052566528 8.7005062103271 -0.0000009536743 3.88 8.7359886169434 8.7359886169434 0.0000000000000 3.92 8.7714138031006 8.7714138031006 0.0000000000000 3.96 8.8067808151245 8.8067808151245 0.0000000000000 4.00 8.8420896530151 8.8420896530151 0.0000000000000 4.04 8.8773412704468 8.8773412704468 0.0000000000000 4.08 8.9125356674194 8.9125356674194 0.0000000000000 4.12 8.9476728439331 8.9476718902588 0.0000009536743 4.16 8.9827518463135 8.9827518463135 0.0000000000000 4.20 9.0177736282349 9.0177736282349 0.0000000000000 4.24 9.0527391433716 9.0527391433716 0.0000000000000 4.28 9.0876474380493 9.0876474380493 0.0000000000000 4.32 9.1224994659424 9.1224994659424 0.0000000000000 4.36 9.1572952270508 9.1572942733765 0.0000009536743 4.40 9.1920328140259 9.1920328140259 0.0000000000000 4.44 9.2267160415649 9.2267160415649 0.0000000000000 4.48 9.2613420486450 9.2613420486450 0.0000000000000 4.52 9.2959117889404 9.2959127426147 -0.0000009536743 4.56 9.3304271697998 9.3304271697998 0.0000000000000 4.60 9.3648853302002 9.3648853302002 0.0000000000000 4.64 9.3992891311646 9.3992881774902 0.0000009536744 4.68 9.4336357116699 9.4336357116699 0.0000000000000 4.72 9.4679279327393 9.4679288864136 -0.0000009536743 4.76 9.5021648406982 9.5021657943726 -0.0000009536744 4.80 9.5363473892212 9.5363473892212 0.0000000000000 4.84 9.5704746246338 9.5704746246338 0.0000000000000 4.88 9.6045475006104 9.6045465469360 0.0000009536744

Although most of the data is correct to the very last place, there are still errors in some of it, I hope someone can come up with a formula that is 100% correct.

Last edited by Whitetooth : 09/22/08 at 3:34 PM.

Hotdogee@Ner'zhul US <Bahamut>
Author of RatingBuster

09/22/08, 11:49 AM   #202
Selmarix
Piston Honda

Dwarf Hunter

Turalyon (EU)
 Originally Posted by Whitetooth After hours of work, this is what I got: $x' = \frac{a}{1-\frac{b}{x}}$ $x'$ is the diminished stat before converting to IEEE754. $x$ is the stat before diminishing returns. $a$ is a constant, which also happens to be the cap. $b$ is a constant.
Something is wrong with that formula. Wouldn't small values of $x$ result in a negative $x'$ ?

09/22/08, 11:55 AM   #203
Whitetooth
Piston Honda

Orc Warlock

Ner'zhul
 Originally Posted by Selmarix Something is wrong with that formula. Wouldn't small values of $x$ result in a negative $x'$ ?
Sorry for the typo, should be + instead of - there, fixed now.

Hotdogee@Ner'zhul US <Bahamut>
Author of RatingBuster

 09/22/08, 12:30 PM #204 Selmarix Piston Honda   Franya Dwarf Hunter   Turalyon (EU) That means the diminishing return for additional parry reaches 50% around 20% parry from gear (1% additional parry adds about 0.5% parry then). On my druid that value for dodge is definitely higher (using the pocket watch at around 33% dodge from gear added slightly more than 8% dodge so the value for half return should be around 38% or so). So the diminishing returns are probably class specific.
 09/22/08, 12:52 PM #205 Muphrid Don Flamenco   Muphrid Gnome Mage   Stormrage So, Whitetooth, for dodge I get b/a = 0.955999867444231 and 1/a = .0113468848294694, which implies a = 88.1299153934183 and b = 84.2521874339791?
09/22/08, 2:28 PM   #206
Mijae
Don Flamenco

Tauren Druid

Tichondrius
 Originally Posted by Selmarix That means the diminishing return for additional parry reaches 50% around 20% parry from gear (1% additional parry adds about 0.5% parry then). On my druid that value for dodge is definitely higher (using the pocket watch at around 33% dodge from gear added slightly more than 8% dodge so the value for half return should be around 38% or so). So the diminishing returns are probably class specific.
Is that 38% total, or 38% from dodge rating alone?

09/22/08, 2:33 PM   #207
Whitetooth
Piston Honda

Orc Warlock

Ner'zhul
 Originally Posted by Muphrid So, Whitetooth, for dodge I get b/a = 0.955999867444231 and 1/a = .0113468848294694, which implies a = 88.1299153934183 and b = 84.2521874339791?
Yes, your values are about the same as mine

Using the formula:

$\frac{1}{x'} = \frac{1}{a}+\frac{0.956}{x}}$

Doing a nonlinear regression with my dodge data from defense:
$a=88.13154$

Proven by my tests in page 8, these formulas work for not only dodge from defense, but for dodge in general, whether its from agility, dodge rating or defense.

 $x$ Dodge Data $x''$ error 0.00 7.0076994895935 7.0076994895935 0.0000000000000 0.12 7.1330442428589 7.1330437660217 0.0000004768372 0.16 7.1747460365295 7.1747465133667 -0.0000004768372 0.20 7.2164087295532 7.2164092063904 -0.0000004768372 0.24 7.2580323219299 7.2580323219299 0.0000000000000 0.28 7.2996163368225 7.2996163368225 0.0000000000000 0.32 7.3411607742310 7.3411612510681 -0.0000004768371 0.36 7.3826661109924 7.3826665878296 -0.0000004768372 0.40 7.4241323471069 7.4241323471069 0.0000000000000 0.44 7.4655590057373 7.4655594825745 -0.0000004768372 0.48 7.5069470405579 7.5069475173950 -0.0000004768371 0.52 7.5482954978943 7.5482959747314 -0.0000004768371 0.56 7.5896062850952 7.5896058082581 0.0000004768371 0.60 7.6308765411377 7.6308765411377 0.0000000000000 0.64 7.6721086502075 7.6721086502075 0.0000000000000 0.68 7.7133016586304 7.7133016586304 0.0000000000000 0.72 7.7544560432434 7.7544560432434 0.0000000000000 0.76 7.7955713272095 7.7955718040466 -0.0000004768371 0.80 7.8366489410400 7.8366484642029 0.0000004768371 0.84 7.8776865005493 7.8776869773865 -0.0000004768372 0.88 7.9186863899231 7.9186868667603 -0.0000004768372 0.92 7.9596476554871 7.9596476554871 0.0000000000000 0.96 8.0005702972412 8.0005702972412 0.0000000000000 1.00 8.0414552688599 8.0414552688599 0.0000000000000 1.04 8.0823011398315 8.0823011398315 0.0000000000000 1.08 8.1231088638306 8.1231088638306 0.0000000000000 1.12 8.1638784408569 8.1638784408569 0.0000000000000 1.16 8.2046098709106 8.2046098709106 0.0000000000000 1.20 8.2453031539917 8.2453031539917 0.0000000000000 1.24 8.2859573364258 8.2859582901001 -0.0000009536743 1.28 8.3265752792358 8.3265752792358 0.0000000000000 1.32 8.3671541213989 8.3671541213989 0.0000000000000 1.36 8.4076957702637 8.4076957702637 0.0000000000000 1.40 8.4481983184814 8.4481983184814 0.0000000000000 1.44 8.4886636734009 8.4886636734009 0.0000000000000 1.48 8.5290918350220 8.5290918350220 0.0000000000000 1.52 8.5694818496704 8.5694818496704 0.0000000000000 1.56 8.6098346710205 8.6098346710205 0.0000000000000 1.60 8.6501493453979 8.6501493453979 0.0000000000000 1.64 8.6904268264771 8.6904268264771 0.0000000000000 1.68 8.7306661605835 8.7306661605835 0.0000000000000 1.72 8.7708683013916 8.7708683013916 0.0000000000000 1.76 8.8110332489014 8.8110332489014 0.0000000000000 1.80 8.8511610031128 8.8511610031128 0.0000000000000 1.84 8.8912506103516 8.8912515640259 -0.0000009536743 1.88 8.9313049316406 8.9313039779663 0.0000009536743 1.92 8.9713201522827 8.9713201522827 0.0000000000000 1.96 9.0112991333008 9.0112991333008 0.0000000000000 2.00 9.0512399673462 9.0512409210205 -0.0000009536743 2.04 9.0911455154419 9.0911455154419 0.0000000000000 2.08 9.1310129165649 9.1310129165649 0.0000000000000 2.12 9.1708440780640 9.1708431243896 0.0000009536744 2.16 9.2106370925903 9.2106370925903 0.0000000000000 2.20 9.2503938674927 9.2503948211670 -0.0000009536743 2.24 9.2901144027710 9.2901144027710 0.0000000000000 2.28 9.3297977447510 9.3297977447510 0.0000000000000 2.32 9.3694448471069 9.3694448471069 0.0000000000000 2.36 9.4090547561646 9.4090557098389 -0.0000009536743 2.40 9.4486284255981 9.4486293792725 -0.0000009536744 2.44 9.4881658554077 9.4881658554077 0.0000000000000 2.48 9.5276670455933 9.5276670455933 0.0000000000000 2.52 9.5671310424805 9.5671310424805 0.0000000000000 2.56 9.6065587997437 9.6065587997437 0.0000000000000 2.60 9.6459503173828 9.6459503173828 0.0000000000000 2.64 9.6853055953979 9.6853055953979 0.0000000000000 2.68 9.7246246337891 9.7246246337891 0.0000000000000 2.72 9.7639083862305 9.7639083862305 0.0000000000000 2.76 9.8031549453735 9.8031549453735 0.0000000000000 2.80 9.8423662185669 9.8423652648926 0.0000009536743 2.84 9.8815402984619 9.8815402984619 0.0000000000000 2.88 9.9206790924072 9.9206790924072 0.0000000000000 2.92 9.9597816467285 9.9597816467285 0.0000000000000 2.96 9.9988489151001 9.9988489151001 0.0000000000000 3.00 10.0378799438480 10.0378799438476 0.0000000000003 3.04 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Last edited by Whitetooth : 09/22/08 at 4:07 PM.

Hotdogee@Ner'zhul US <Bahamut>
Author of RatingBuster

 09/22/08, 3:50 PM #208 sp00n Bald Bull   Surprise Night Elf Rogue   Wrathbringer (EU) Wow. Amazing. Now, besides the fact that I understand the desire to not have to fall back to something like the Sunwell Radiance Buff, does it somebody else find quite ironic that, in order to do a little napkin math or a bit theorycrafting ('hm, how high will my avoidance be with this and that gear...'), basically it first requires a degree in mathematics to find out the underlying formula? // Edit I would rather like to see a reasonable high avoidance cap on dodge+parry+miss instead of such a complicated formula (block being an exception from that cap). They already decided to include a cap on armor a long time ago, instead of introducing something fancy like an armor rating with diminishing returns. Seems only reasonable to go down the same road for avoidance. Last edited by sp00n : 09/22/08 at 4:05 PM. Stopped Playing
09/22/08, 4:01 PM   #209
Malazaar
Don Flamenco

Tauren Druid

Gul'dan (EU)
 Originally Posted by sp00n Wow. Amazing. Now, besides the fact that I understand the desire to not have to fall back to something like the Sunwell Radiance Buff, does it somebody else find quite ironic that, in order to do a little napkin math or a bit theorycrafting ('hm, how high will my avoidance be with this and that gear...'), basically it first requires a degree in mathematics to find out the underlying formula?
They could just give us the formula, it would save us the trouble and make finding bugs a lot easier. It's not like we wouldn't figure it out eventually.

Would be nice for a change if they'd do something like this: "We implemented diminishing returns on avoidance, you now gain avoidance according to formula X".

Edit:
 Originally Posted by sp00n I would rather like to see a reasonable high avoidance cap on dodge+parry+miss instead of such a complicated formula (block being an exception from that cap). They already decided to include a cap on armor a long time ago, instead of introducing something fancy like an armor rating with diminishing returns. Seems only reasonable to go down the same road for avoidance.
Those are two very different things. Time to die versus Armor is a linear relationship, so you wouldn't even need an armor cap or armor rating or whatever.

Avoidance is a different matter because time to die versus avoidance has increasing returns. Each percent avoidance you gain is worth more than the last one - that makes (made) stacking avoidance so attractive. It would make sense to implement a hard cap on avoidance but that brings some problems with it.

One thing being that once players reach that cap, there is little way to offer them any improvement with better gear. Another being that avoidance still has increasing returns so until that cap is reached the problem isn't really solved.

So implementing diminishing returns on avoidance is in my opinion the smarter move - it brings it in line with armor and stamina.

Last edited by Malazaar : 09/22/08 at 4:11 PM.

09/22/08, 4:14 PM   #210
Muphrid
Don Flamenco

Gnome Mage

Stormrage
Well, Daelo said, more or less, "We'd be wasting our time developing if we told you, and you can figure it out for yourselves."

Yes, we can (and to a good extent, have) figured it out for ourselves, thanks to Whitetooth in particular. And I suppose it's cheaper for them to have us spend hours reverse engineering their mechanics, rather than take 5 minutes and say what the deal is.

I mean, the actual regressing is not hard. We never would've needed exact numbers from the game code, just a general indication of what kind of model to look at. If Whitetooth's model holds, then what we have is this: "the reciprocal of gained avoidance is a linear function of the reciprocal of pre-DR gained avoidance." That one sentence would have saved us hours and hours of trying linear, polynomial, and exponential functions of rating, 1/rating, and God only knows what else.

And there's another issue: how do we know it works "right" if we don't know what model they intended it to follow?

And furthermore, the issue that led to Sunwell Radiance has not been fixed. Avoidance still increases as a function of gear level with no counter. It may increase less quickly, but it still increases. Irony: Sunwell Radiance is the solution to Sunwell Radiance. Or rather, without some way for mobs to mitigate players' avoidance, those mobs are forced to deal spikier damage to keep the same average pressure on healers, which leads to more spike damage deaths. Slowing avoidance growth just slows the progression of the problem, but it is still there.

 So implementing diminishing returns on avoidance is in my opinion the smarter move - it brings it in line with armor and stamina.
Sadly, if this was Blizzard's intention, they haven't done that. It was this possibility that drove my first regression, and that model was bad. I'm still waiting for a more thorough and complete understanding of how all the stats interact to determine whether avoidance will increase average TTL faster or slower than linear, but I'm reasonably certain that it will not increase TTL linearly.

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