Looks like I missed that. Seeing as how the common assumption was that it did trunctuate, I was just trying to bring to light that it didn't. As long as that knowledge gets out there I'm happy. =)
PTR boss value somewhere around 10650, range of minus 20 to plus 280. Medium confidence level. Used bloodthirst tests with varying attack power. Also ran data with 5 sunder armors = 80% armor and various levels of armor penetration. Armor penetration effects are applied after percentage reductions from sunder armor, and assumedly faerie fire.
PTR boss value somewhere around 10650, range of minus 20 to plus 280. Medium confidence level. Used bloodthirst tests with varying attack power. Also ran data with 5 sunder armors = 80% armor and various levels of armor penetration. Armor penetration effects are applied after percentage reductions from sunder armor, and assumedly faerie fire.
Needs confirmation via beast lore or whatever.
Also a question is whether Faerie Fire and Sunder Armor are multiplicative or additive.
Landsoul and I spent about 5 hours last night trying to nail down the new arpen mechanics. (Bloodthirst makes for much more accurate testing, since it's doing thousands of damage, and has no damage range, less margin of error)
New boss armor value is between 10635 and 10650. Looks like 10645.
Sunder and Faerie Fire are multiplicative with each other, for sure. Sunder is -20% armor on the boss, Faerie Fire is -5%, both are -24%.
ArPenRating is acting odd. I have word from a friend of a friend that how it works on PTR at the moment is totally a bug, and will be fixed, but if you care how it works right now...
It's not multiplicative, and it's not additive. It's actually even worse than multiplicative, using some formulae we couldn't figure out after slamming our faces into this huge pile of numbers for 5 hours, if it's using the same rating to % conversion.
If you assume, however, that it is multiplicative, and they just changed the conversion ratio, it works... except the conversion ratio is different depending on what debuffs are on the target. On live, it's 15.3. On PTR it's 19 with no debuffs, 16.6 with Sunder, and 16.0 with Sunder+FF. You'd think that that meant it was additive, but that's off, in the wrong direction, to be additive.
If you assume, however, that it is multiplicative, and they just changed the conversion ratio, it works... except the conversion ratio is different depending on what debuffs are on the target. On live, it's 15.3. On PTR it's 19 with no debuffs, 16.6 with Sunder, and 16.0 with Sunder+FF. You'd think that that meant it was additive, but that's off, in the wrong direction, to be additive.
This makes a lot of sense when I think back of the hours I spent trying to figure out why my hunter shot calculations were off. With a fixed damage ranged weapon I was trying to determine the damage done at various AP levels and the % of mitigation kept changing..
I also have to check at what point the pet special abilities that affect armor are applied.
I've tested on a rogue with Mace Specialization* ("Your attacks with maces ignore up to 15% of your opponent's armor."), and got rather weird results as well: for the level 60 and 70 dummies, Mace Specialization yielded roughly 15% less armor, and roughly 32% together with Expose Armor (85% x 80% = 68%), pretty much spot on. For the level 80 and boss level dummy, however, Mace Specialization was only roughly 12% on its own - but still roughly 32% together with Expose Armor.
I can confirm both boss-level armor, and multiplicative stacking of Major (SA/EA) and Minor (CoW/FF) armor debuffs.
*) via Gouge at fixed AP, Maces and Daggers with weapon skill 400; "roughly" as used above is +/-0.5%
* Armor Penetration Rating: All classes now receive 25% more benefit from Armor Penetration Rating.
* Haste Rating: Shamans, Paladins, Druids, and Death Knights now receive 30% more melee haste from Haste Rating.
Maybe that's what has been off in your new Arp calculations.
ArP rating according to tooltip seems to have been lowered from 15.3 to something like 12.04.
Expertise change affects warriors aswell but the tooltip for this seems bugged (it shows the old value).
ArP rating according to tooltip seems to have been lowered from 15.3 to something like 12.04.
Expertise change affects warriors aswell but the tooltip for this seems bugged (it shows the old value).
Yeah, in the tooltip, the bottom line is still using the old ratio. Top line is correct, but you have to subtract whatever you get from talents.
I have to admit that ArP rating and ArP effects (battle stance for ex) are really:
1) buggy.
2) completely different from before.
I start to think they changed the armor reduction formula.
I get 10647 armor for a boss target dummy (41.14% reduction) with 0 arp in berz
I get 39.09% reduction when in Battle with 0 arp but armor should then be 8,18% less and not 10%.
With arp on gear it is even worse
I did 3 tests with 0, 17.70% (218 rating) and 34.83% (429 rating) arp trying to keep ap close.
I used a spec with no dmg multipliers, no sunders, and I was alone on the dummy.
The Arp you get from Battle stance is not showed on charsheet (like mace spec), it's 10% reading the tooltip.
I got an approximate value for arp rating being 12.31640
0 Arp zerk
0 Arp battle
17,7 Arp zerk
17,7 Arp battle
34,83 Arp zerk
34,83 Arp battle
0 Arp 5xSA zerk
0 Arp 5xSA battle
AP
3995
3995
3988
3988
3982
3982
3995
3995
Tooltip BT Dmg
1998
1998
1994
1994
1991
1991
1998
1998
Effective BT Dmg
1176
1217
1232
1277
1292
1341
1282
1325
Reduction %
41,1411%
39,0891%
38,2146%
35,9579%
35,1080%
32,6469%
35,8358%
33,6837%
Expected Armor
10647,21
9775,33
9421,4
8552,63
8241,11
7383,39
8507,39
7736,96
Effective Reduction
8,1870%
11,5112%
19,6710%
22,5969%
30,6529%
20,0959%
27,3320%
I hope you can use some of these data to find the interactions, because currently those values aren't equal to armor*0.9 nor armor/1.1.
Unless armor formula has slightly been changed, but that would require a target with known armor.
Last edited by hellord : 03/07/09 at 1:26 AM.
Reason: Added a column with 5xSunder
Landsoul and I did our same testing again, and found that arpen is still working oddly, as before. Let me know if anyone wants our data/calculations, but it's basically identical before, except with 25% more arpen from rating. The effects are still wonky.
I have to admit that ArP rating and ArP effects (battle stance for ex) are really:
1) buggy.
2) completely different from before.
I start to think they changed the armor reduction formula.
I get 10647 armor for a boss target dummy (41.14% reduction) with 0 arp in berz
I get 39.09% reduction when in Battle with 0 arp but armor should then be 8,18% less and not 10%.
With arp on gear it is even worse
I did 3 tests with 0, 17.70% (218 rating) and 34.83% (429 rating) arp trying to keep ap close.
I used a spec with no dmg multipliers, no sunders, and I was alone on the dummy.
The Arp you get from Battle stance is not showed on charsheet (like mace spec), it's 10% reading the tooltip.
I got an approximate value for arp rating being 12.31640
0 Arp zerk
0 Arp battle
17,7 Arp zerk
17,7 Arp battle
34,83 Arp zerk
34,83 Arp battle
0 Arp 5xSA zerk
0 Arp 5xSA battle
AP
3995
3995
3988
3988
3982
3982
3995
3995
Tooltip BT Dmg
1998
1998
1994
1994
1991
1991
1998
1998
Effective BT Dmg
1176
1217
1232
1277
1292
1341
1282
1325
Reduction %
41,1411%
39,0891%
38,2146%
35,9579%
35,1080%
32,6469%
35,8358%
33,6837%
Expected Armor
10647,21
9775,33
9421,4
8552,63
8241,11
7383,39
8507,39
7736,96
Effective Reduction
8,1870%
11,5112%
19,6710%
22,5969%
30,6529%
20,0959%
27,3320%
I hope you can use some of these data to find the interactions, because currently those values aren't equal to armor*0.9 nor armor/1.1.
Unless armor formula has slightly been changed, but that would require a target with known armor.
Its currently bugged that instead of multiplying by 1.25, they divided by 1.25.
Battle Stance = 10/1.25 = 8 (yes, its double bugged since its not even a rating, lol)
218 ArP = 218/15.39529991/1.25 = 11.32813268
429 Arp = 429/15.39529991/1.25 = 22.29251798
Sunder is not bugged and gives 20%.
Combinations seems to be additive for all of your data except 0 Arp 5xSA battle, which is somewhere between additive and multiplicative.
Boss armor seems closer to 10610, using the above calculated reductions to calculate "Effective BT Dmg" matches your data within error of 1 damage.
Thanks for your data
Last edited by Whitetooth : 03/09/09 at 1:42 AM.
Hotdogee@Ner'zhul US <Bahamut>
Author of RatingBuster
It'll be interesting to see if the bugged ArP was fixed in the latest PTR build.
Also, has anyone run similar tests with a Blood DK and the effects of Blood Gorged? I am curious if it has the same problem as battle stance. If not, I'll be on PTR tonight with a Blood DK and can collect some numbers, so hopefully I'll have a decent amount of data to contribute to the efforts.
@Hellord-If possible can you post the spec and a chardev sheet? It would be good to know exactly what talents and gear you were using for the tests.
@Whitetooth-Keep up the good work, I really appreciate your efforts with rating buster and contributions thus far to the community as a whole.
During the most recent tests I did on PTR I found out that ArP rating is working with the same rating to% as on live.
I managed to equip 54% Arp (674 rating) but the armor reduction seemed to be only 44sh% (more or less same conversion on live).
Battle stance seems to be around 8.2% armor ignored rather than 10%, and when you stacks debuffs the values changes aswell.
The expected armor using multiplicative or additive method is never close enough to results and differs much the more debuffs you have.
I made tests with a spec without multipliers, using BT with 3607AP (1804 BT damage on tooltip) with 674ArP rating from gear (54.72% on tooltip)
Tying together the miss cap testing and the expertise granularity testing... is it possible to say whether defense works the same way? I.e. does defense rating provide avoidance directly per point, even though the character sheet only updates on full defense skill boundaries?
I did few more tests on this build and I would like to share the results.
Actually I'm inclined to think that they "tend" to stack additively, but there are still some strange behaviours that I can't understand.
All tests were done with a spec without multipliers, using Bloodthirst with 4295AP for 0arp gear and 4270AP for 356arp gear. Since Bloodthirst have a 1 damage difference between max and min I always waited to get both values and averaged.
I examined the 2 armor debuffs (Sunder and FF) plus a spec buff plus gear buffs, separately and together.
Sunder 5 stacks alone is consistently around 20% reduction, the difference is due to roundings most probably.
FF alone is 5% reduction, roundings skew this value aswell by a few decimals.
So the debuffs seems to work correctly.
Battle stance should give 10% Arp, but used alone seems to only give between 8.02% to 8.2%. Since the value is quite much lower than expected I'll have to make more tests with full raidbuffs to have a better BT damage and closer results.
356 Arp rating shows (from tooltip) 28.90% armor penetration, but from tests it seems to only grant around 23.2%-23.4%. This value is very close to the ArP rating conversion on live server (so 25% less than tooltip).
So after seeing that Arp from gear and battle stance grants different buffs from what tooltips stated, I used those values to check how they stack. ~8% for BS and ~23.3% for Gear arp.
I used an arbitrary boss armor value of 10650 that should be quite close to what is real (values from 10645 to 10655 where inline with expectation in most cases).
Stacking FF and BattleStance
Stacks additively (8+5) (the difference from expected is around 0.03%) giving ~13% armor penetration
Stacking Gear, FF and BattleStance
Stacks additively (23+8+5) (difference from expected around 0.5%) giving ~36% armor penetration
Stacking Sunderx5 and BattleStance
Stacks additively (20+8) (difference from expected around 0.54%) giving ~27.5% armor penetration
Stacking Gear and FF
Stacks additively (23+5) (difference from expected around 0.3%) giving ~28% armor penetration
Stacking Gear and BattleStance
Stacks additively (23+8) (difference from expected around 0.15%) giving ~31.6% armor penetration
These values are quite close to those I would expect considering BattleStance an 8% buff in ArP and gear arp with live rating conversion (25% less than expected).
What I noticed is that when you factor in sunder armor the values skew by much more.
Stacking FF and Sunderx5
Stacks additively (20+5) (difference from expected around 1%) giving ~24% armor penetration
Stacking FF, Sunder and BattleStance
Stacks additively (20+8+5) (difference from expected around 1.65%) giving ~31.4% armor penetration
Stacking Gear and Sunderx5
Stacks additively (23+20) (difference from expected around 1.9%) giving ~41.5% armor penetration
Stacking Gear, FF and Sunderx5
Stacks additively (23+5+20) (difference from expected around 3.2%) giving ~45.2% armor penetration
Stacking Gear, FF and BattleStance
Stacks additively (23+8+20) (difference from expected around 2.5%) giving ~49% armor penetration
Stacking Gear, FF, BattleStance and Sunderx5
Stacks additively (23+5+8+20) (difference from expected around 4%) giving ~52.5% armor penetration
Using proper values for gear and Battlestance makes this values shift by quite much, so assuming a bug I preferred to use parsed values.
After all seems that sunder is the one creating problems when stacking since it varies from 0.54% to 4% difference from expected.
I compiled a sheet with all results and data with comparisons, hope somebody can use them and maybe complete them with better data.
I can't look at your spreadsheet right now, but the numbers that you listed work better if we assume that there are 2 kinds of armor penetration. The first is Sunder and FF, which stack multiplicatively. The second is Battle Stance and gear, which also stack multiplicatively. You then stack those 2 sources of armor pen additively. However, this only applies if Sunder is present. If there's no Sunder the numbers are much closer if Battle Stance and gear are additive, along with FF.
Stacking FF and BattleStance
Stacks additively (8+5) (the difference from expected is around 0.03%) giving ~13% armor penetration Matches my assumptions
Stacking Gear, FF and BattleStance
Stacks additively (23+8+5) (difference from expected around 0.5%) giving ~36% armor penetration My assumptions predict 34.16% armor penetration, which is less accurate than what you came up with
Stacking Sunderx5 and BattleStance
Stacks additively (20+8) (difference from expected around 0.54%) giving ~27.5% armor penetration Matches my assumptions
Stacking Gear and FF
Stacks additively (23+5) (difference from expected around 0.3%) giving ~28% armor penetration Matches my assumptions
Stacking Gear and BattleStance
Stacks additively (23+8) (difference from expected around 0.15%) giving ~31.6% armor penetration My assumptions predict 29.16% armor penetration, far less accurate than if they are additive
Stacking FF and Sunderx5
Stacks additively (20+5) (difference from expected around 1%) giving ~24% armor penetration FF and Sunder stacking multiplicatively matches your results exactly, and is what others such as Astrylian have reported
Stacking FF, Sunder and BattleStance
Stacks additively (20+8+5) (difference from expected around 1.65%) giving ~31.4% armor penetration My assumptions predict 32% armor penetration, so only about 0.6% off
Stacking Gear and Sunderx5
Stacks additively (23+20) (difference from expected around 1.9%) giving ~41.5% armor penetration Matches my assumptions
Stacking Gear, FF and Sunderx5
Stacks additively (23+5+20) (difference from expected around 3.2%) giving ~45.2% armor penetration My assumptions would predict 47% armor penetration, not too accurate but slightly closer than assuming they are all additive
Stacking Gear, Sunderx5 and BattleStance
Stacks additively (23+8+20) (difference from expected around 2.5%) giving ~49% armor penetration My assumptions predict 49.16% armor penetration, matching your results
Stacking Gear, FF, BattleStance and Sunderx5
Stacks additively (23+5+8+20) (difference from expected around 4%) giving ~52.5% armor penetration My assumptions predict 53.16% armor penetration, somewhat closer to your results than assuming everything is additive
It seems a rough formula can be 1-((1-sunder)*(1-ff) -bs -gear).
I am gonna try mace spec to see if there is a 25% damage reduction there aswell (as it is for battle stance).
EDIT: Also mace spec seems to only remove 12%, so 25% less than expected; same happens to battlestance and gear and if anybody can check Blood Gorged (DK blood) and combat rogue mace spec we can probably state that these are semi-conclusive tests.
I can't post on US forums, so it would be nice if somebody else can give feedback on this bug.
Not quite, the formula that I came up with was (1 - (1-Sunder)*(1-FF)) + (1 - (1-gear)*(1-BattleStance)) = Total armor penetration, but only when Sunder is present. Otherwise it's simply FF + gear + BattleStance. Of course, these numbers still don't match your data exactly, which more than likely means that armor penetration is simply very buggy at the moment.
Not quite, the formula that I came up with was (1 - (1-Sunder)*(1-FF)) + (1 - (1-gear)*(1-BattleStance)) = Total armor penetration, but only when Sunder is present. Otherwise it's simply FF + gear + BattleStance. Of course, these numbers still don't match your data exactly, which more than likely means that armor penetration is simply very buggy at the moment.
I was also wondering if there have been a slight change in armorToDR formula, but I didnt make any test on a target with known armor.
02/17/09, 5:47 PM
Similar Threads
