Elitist Jerks Combat Ratings at level 85 (Cataclysm)

 09/23/08, 4:09 AM #226 nightcrowler Don Flamenco     nightcrowler Night Elf Druid   Runetotem (EU) It could be interesting to notice if talents like survival of the fitness (feral druid, +6% all stats) or Blessing of Kings once multiplied by the base agility are affected by diminushing returns or not (aka, 87 base agility +SoF+BoK = 101 agility, 101-87 = 14, are those 14 agility affected by diminushing returns?).
09/23/08, 6:41 AM   #227
Whitetooth
Piston Honda

Orc Warlock

Ner'zhul
The following level 80 warrior data when compared to my level 60 warrior data, shows that the cap $a$ does not change with level, so for the same class, the same formula and cap can be used for all levels.

Build: 8970
Name: Imbamoo
Level: 80
Class: Warrior
Base Defense: 300
Base Agi: 108

 Defense Dodge% Parry% Increased Dodge% Increased Parry% 400 4.9323997497559 5.0000000000000 0.0000000000000 0.0000000000000 419 5.7202720642090 5.7817568778992 0.7878723144531 0.7817568778992 437 6.4537920951843 6.4987540245056 1.5213923454284 1.4987540245056 453 7.0955438613892 7.1176638603210 2.1631441116333 2.1176638603210 474 7.9235496520996 7.9048829078674 2.9911499023437 2.9048829078674

Build: 8970
Name: Whitetooth
Level: 60
Class: Warrior
Base Defense: 300
Base Agi: 83

 Defense Dodge% Parry% Increased Dodge% Increased Parry% 400 7.0076994895935 5.0000000000000 0.0000000000000 0.0000000000000 419 7.7955713272095 5.7817568778992 0.7878718376160 0.7817568778992 437 8.5290918350220 6.4987540245056 1.5213923454285 1.4987540245056 453 9.1708440780640 7.1176638603210 2.1631445884705 2.1176638603210 474 9.9988489151 7.9048829078674 2.9911494255066 2.9048829078674

The variances in Increased Dodge% is the result of IEEE754 rounding effect.

Hotdogee@Ner'zhul US <Bahamut>
Author of RatingBuster

 09/23/08, 7:26 AM #228 Whitetooth Piston Honda     Hotdogee Orc Warlock   Ner'zhul Now we have everything we need, we're ready to do some multi stat calculations. Current Stats: Level 60 warrior Base defense: 300 Base dodge%: 7.0076994895935 Base parry%: 5 Dodge rating: 0 Parry rating: 0 Base Agility: 83 Put on some gear which gives +8 Defense +24 Dodge Rating +20 Parry Rating +21 Agility How much Dodge% and Parry% do I have now? Solution: For a level 60 Warrior 1 Defense = 0.04% Dodge + 0.04% Parry (the rest are not important for this problem) 12 Dodge Rating = 1% Dodge 15 Parry Rating = 1% Parry 1 Agility = 0.0427% Dodge $Dodge=8*0.04+\frac{24}{12}+21*0.0427=3.2167$ $Parry=8*0.04+\frac{20}{15}=1.653333333$ Dodge Cap $C_D=88.131540$ Parry Cap $C_P=47.003518$ $Dodge_{DR}=\frac{1}{\frac{1}{C_D}+\frac{0.956}{Dodge}}=3.241011307$ $Parry_{DR}=\frac{1}{\frac{1}{C_P}+\frac{0.956}{Parry}}=1.668054461$ Add the base values and we have: Dodge = 10.2487108 Parry = 6.668054461 Answer: (These are the values taken in game) Dodge = 10.248710632324 Parry = 6.6680541038513 Hotdogee@Ner'zhul US Author of RatingBuster
09/23/08, 10:59 AM   #229
jowyattreides
Glass Joe

Blackhand (EU)
 Originally Posted by Whitetooth 1 Defense = 0.04% Dodge + 0.04% Parry (the rest are not important for this problem)
Does this mean, that miss chance from defense is not subject to diminishing returns?

09/23/08, 11:22 AM   #230
Selmarix
Piston Honda

Dwarf Hunter

Turalyon (EU)
 Originally Posted by jowyattreides Does this mean, that miss chance from defense is not subject to diminishing returns?
Miss is very likely subject to diminishing returns. But unlike dodge and parry there is no easy function to get the values after diminishing returns.
So we'd need someone getting hit a lot of times at one defense value to determine the cap in the formula (the $a$) and a lot of times at another defense value to confirm that it uses the same formula.

 09/23/08, 12:56 PM #231 Rhî Glass Joe   Rhîniel Blood Elf Paladin   Zirkel des Cenarius (EU) I guess, Paladins have another Dodge and Parry Cap? If yes, do you need some data to evaluate it?
 09/23/08, 12:57 PM #232 Muphrid Don Flamenco   Muphrid Gnome Mage   Stormrage Okay, based on Whitetooth's results, we can conclude that the % increase in average time-to-live is given by the following expression: $1+\Delta T/T= \left (h-a \right ) \left (h- \left (\frac{1}{a_c}+\frac{n}{a_u+\Delta a_u} \right )^{-1} - a_0 \right )^{-1}$ Where h is the chance to be hit before the generalized avoidance factor a is accounted for, a_c is the cap, n is the constant in the neighborhood of .956%, and a_u is the avoidance above base before diminishing returns, and a_0 is the base avoidance. As $\Delta a_u$ increases, this quantity increases, indicating faster-than-exponential growth. So, in my mind, Blizzard has still not come close to fixing the problem. Avoidance is still better the more you stack it, particularly since the different avoidance stats don't share DRs. The only thing this will accomplish is encouraging tanks to stack a variety of avoidance stats, which for some is impossible.
09/23/08, 1:11 PM   #233
Selmarix
Piston Honda

Dwarf Hunter

Turalyon (EU)
 Originally Posted by Rhî I guess, Paladins have another Dodge and Parry Cap? If yes, do you need some data to evaluate it?
They might, but they can dodge, parry and be missed like warriors so they don't really need a higher dodge cap like druids.
Some data to evaluate it will help though. With the formula known now few data points are enough to determine the caps. My guess is that they will be equal or close to the warrior values.

Deathknights should be interesting though. With their strength to parry conversion they might have a higher parry and a lower dodge cap.

09/23/08, 1:30 PM   #234
Rhî
Glass Joe

Zirkel des Cenarius (EU)
 Originally Posted by Selmarix They might, but they can dodge, parry and be missed like warriors so they don't really need a higher dodge cap like druids. Some data to evaluate it will help though. With the formula known now few data points are enough to determine the caps. My guess is that they will be equal or close to the warrior values. Deathknights should be interesting though. With their strength to parry conversion they might have a higher parry and a lower dodge cap.
Valid Datapoints should look like? I can give you some with my lvl 70 Paladin.

 09/23/08, 1:58 PM #235 Selmarix Piston Honda   Franya Dwarf Hunter   Turalyon (EU) First the data without any equipment (base values), then several with different amounts of defense gear without agility on it. Then some with agility.
 09/23/08, 2:27 PM #236 Rhî Glass Joe   Rhîniel Blood Elf Paladin   Zirkel des Cenarius (EU) LVL70 Bloodelf Paladin AGI Defense Dodge R. Dodge % Parry R. Parry % 79 350 0 6,45 0 5 79 366 44 9,45 0 5,66 79 371 74 11,16 0 5,86 79 379 97 12,57 0 6,18 87 403 97 13,72 0 7,12 92 412 97 14,21 0 7,46 109 429 131 16,87 0 8,09 109 502 288 25,03 75 13,02 No idea how to format it, sry.
09/23/08, 2:33 PM   #237
Malazaar
Don Flamenco

Tauren Druid

Gul'dan (EU)
 Originally Posted by Rhî No idea how to format it, sry.
Use the table tag:

 AGI Defense Dodge R. Dodge % Parry R. Parry % 79 350 0 6.45 0 5 79 366 44 9.45 0 5.66 79 371 74 11.16 0 5.86 79 379 97 12.57 0 6.18 87 403 97 13.72 0 7.12 92 412 97 14.21 0 7.46 109 429 131 16.87 0 8.09 109 502 288 25.03 75 13.02

09/23/08, 2:53 PM   #238
Whitetooth
Piston Honda

Orc Warlock

Ner'zhul
 Originally Posted by Rhî Valid Datapoints should look like? I can give you some with my lvl 70 Paladin.
For those that would like to contribute with data, may I suggest using the following command I formated for obtaining more precise data(because 2 decimal places isn't really useful):

/print select(1, UnitDefense("player"))+select(2, UnitDefense("player")).." "..GetDodgeChance().." "..GetParryChance().." "..GetCombatRating(CR_DODGE).." "..GetCombatRating(CR_PARRY).." "..select(1, UnitStat("player", 2))

This will print your stats in your chat frame, that looks like this:
"274 4.1817655563354 6.6373481750488 0 33 92"
Which is Defense, Dodge%, Parry%, Dodge Rating, Parry Rating, Agility in that order.

The /print command is provided by AceConsole-2.0, if you have any ace2 addons you can use it.
Another helpful addon is Chatter, it gives you a button at the bottom right corner of your chat frame click on it to open a window that you can select text and use ctrl+c to copy out your test results.

And if possible, use gear with only 1 DR stat, like pure agi(no defense dodge parry) or pure defense (no agi dodge parry, but block is fine), it simplifies the calculations quite a bit.

This is how I would do it:
1. Remove all equipped items, and reset talents to 0/0/0
2. Find some pure defense gear, no agi, dodge or parry, but block is fine.
3. Put them on one by one and print the data with the command.
4. Remove all equipped items, find some pure agi gear, take the data
5. Remove all equipped items, find some pure dodge gear, take the data
6. Remove all equipped items, find some pure parry gear, take the data

Last edited by Whitetooth : 09/23/08 at 3:07 PM.

Hotdogee@Ner'zhul US <Bahamut>
Author of RatingBuster

 09/23/08, 3:05 PM #239 Rhî Glass Joe   Rhîniel Blood Elf Paladin   Zirkel des Cenarius (EU) Ok, I will do that. And how I use that table tag?
09/23/08, 3:12 PM   #240
Whitetooth
Piston Honda

Orc Warlock

Ner'zhul
 Originally Posted by Rhî Ok, I will do that. And how I use that table tag?
You can find how to use it here: Elitist Jerks - vB Code List

Hotdogee@Ner'zhul US <Bahamut>
Author of RatingBuster

 Elitist Jerks Combat Ratings at level 85 (Cataclysm)