Combat Ratings at level 85 (Cataclysm) - Page 2

Akka · 07/31/08, 6:21 AM

One thing that worry me, though : with such a steep decrease in stat effectiveness for each level gained, the levelling phase is about to see a crushing reduction in efficiency for the character.
I'm afraid that, then, this whole phase, with all the regions and dungeons created for it, will be seen only as an irritating farming moment where your character only lose power, and that it will be largely despised and neglected, people only having fun anew at level 80, where their character will finally be able to progress again.
Also, it will make BC items obsolete even faster than it made pre-BC items obsolete in BC.

All in all, isn't this "wiping the state clean" far too harsh, making the same mistake as BC again ?
Especially as blue seemed to say that WotLK wouldn't be as severe as BC in this area, while these coefficients imply it will, actually, be WORSE.

Ellyh · 07/31/08, 6:33 AM

Well it makes specs that are less reliant on ratings for power scaling such as shadow priests, afflocks and holy priests more powerful relative to their comrades and their gear lasts longer.

Valerian · 07/31/08, 8:22 AM

Originally Posted by Akka

One thing that worry me, though : with such a steep decrease in stat effectiveness for each level gained, the levelling phase is about to see a crushing reduction in efficiency for the character.
I'm afraid that, then, this whole phase, with all the regions and dungeons created for it, will be seen only as an irritating farming moment where your character only lose power, and that it will be largely despised and neglected, people only having fun anew at level 80, where their character will finally be able to progress again.
Also, it will make BC items obsolete even faster than it made pre-BC items obsolete in BC.

All in all, isn't this "wiping the state clean" far too harsh, making the same mistake as BC again ?
Especially as blue seemed to say that WotLK wouldn't be as severe as BC in this area, while these coefficients imply it will, actually, be WORSE.

From the items we've seen Sunwell/late BT gear doesn't appear to get replaced all that soon (mainly due to lack of sockets). Thus is the rating change is that large, it will simply be a drop in effective power rather than an obsoleting of all the old gear super fast.

• Vulajin · 07/31/08, 8:27 AM

Erm. So, I derived this information a while ago, actually, and my formula doesn't quite agree with yours. Here's my thread on the beta forums (reposted from the alpha forums):

WoW Forums -> Combat Ratings from 70 to 80

The formula as I have it is H = (82/52)*(101/52)^((Level-70)/10). I've found this formula to be accurate for every data point I've seen so far.

Additionally I'm curious as to where you found the information on agility-to-crit conversions.

(edit) I just logged in to beta and it looks like they've reduced the rating scaling curve. So 101/52 is most certainly not accurate any longer. (edit 2) Your new value of 131/63 seems to check out for this build.

Shai · 07/31/08, 8:35 AM

Perhaps I misunderstand something, but at lvl 74 227 haste rating converts to exactly 10% haste on my character sheet. Using your table, that would match the expected value at lvl 75. What am I missing?

edit: Roywyn's right. My bad for not checking the actual effect on spells.

Roywyn · 07/31/08, 9:04 AM

Originally Posted by Shai

Perhaps I misunderstand something, but at lvl 74 227 haste rating converts to exactly 10% haste on my character sheet. Using your table, that would match the expected value at lvl 75. What am I missing?

Your character sheet rounds down haste and doesn't display fractional haste. (Which is kind of stupid.)
You do however get the full haste, even though the sheet rounds down.

At 74 with 227 haste, the table says you'd have 227/21.134... = 10.74098... % haste.
Is your Drain Soul 15s/1.1074098 = 13.545s cast time (spell book should round up to 13.55s)?
If it is, then you have the full 10.74098% haste and the table is correct.

If you hit 75 with the same gear, you should have 227/22.739... = 9.9828% haste.
The character sheet should then display 9% and Drain Soul should be 15/1.09828 = 13.5677s cast time (spell book should round to 13.57s).
If that's true as well it confirms the table.

Also, what's up with people complaining about the increase of stats/rating needed?

Let's take a simple model:
* At 70 in some blues you have 1k AP and a 70 DPS weapon. About 140 character pane DPS.
To increase that by 1%, you'd need 19 AP or 1% hit.
* At 80 in some blues you have perhaps 2k AP and a 120 DPS weapon, around 260 character pane DPS.
To increase that by 1%, you'd need 37 AP or 1% hit.

37 AP at 80 costs about twice as much as 19 AP at 70. That's why 1% hit at 80 has to cost about twice as much as 1% hit at 70.
The model is simple, but it shows the basic thing about scaling. Doubling the ratings/stats needed looks pretty natural.

Erdluf · 07/31/08, 10:32 AM

Originally Posted by Roywyn

Also, what's up with people complaining about the increase of stats/rating needed?

The gear reset is bigger than it was for TBC. For TBC, going from 60 to 70, we needed 58% more crit rating to keep the same crit%. At 80, we'll need 108% more crit rating than we did at 70. The same thing holds for most of these stats.

Now it may be that the gear reset is more gradual at first (outland greens at 61 were a huge jump over Azeroth greens at 60).

I'm not complaining about this. I'd find it pretty sad to go 5 levels before getting a gear upgrade.

constantius · 07/31/08, 11:06 AM

Not sure if you care, but the current model is predicting a level 80 regen formula coefficient of 0.007029 (as compared to Live level 70 of 0.0093271). I don't believe RatingBuster currently has Spirit->Regen formula setup, but if you happen to want to add it, those are the numbers.

Full formula taking Intellect & Spirit to OO5SR regen at level 80:

5 * 0.007029 * sqrt {Int} * Spi

Borodin · 07/31/08, 11:19 AM

Good work but as I understand it the following pairs of stats will be merged into single Ratings:

Hit / Spell Hit = Hit
Crit / Spell Crit = Crit
Haste / Spell Haste = Haste

Can someone from beta confirm how these got merged? Are they simply the average of the previous 2 stats or what?

Sydane · 07/31/08, 11:25 AM

It is rather amusing (and somewhat annoying) to think that hitting level 80, still wearing Sunwell gear, characters will actually be a lot weaker, except for the increase in base damage from spells.

The massive increase also means trinkets like [The Skull of Gul'dan] won't remain useful for nearly as long as some of the items like [Neltharion's Tear] did, which is probably a good thing.

Originally Posted by Borodin

Good work but as I understand it the following pairs of stats will be merged into single Ratings:

Hit / Spell Hit = Hit
Crit / Spell Crit = Crit
Haste / Spell Haste = Haste

Can someone from beta confirm how these got merged? Are they simply the average of the previous 2 stats or what?

The ratings on gear were merged, nothing else. The ratings for individual character stats remain the same as now. A piece of gear with +Hit on it will give you both spell hit and melee hit, but in different percentage amounts.

Borodin · 07/31/08, 11:28 AM

Aha that makes sense. Curse my lack of Beta access.

Nezralix · 07/31/08, 11:32 AM

If these are accurate, then I suppose they make some sense. The 60->70 conversions probably weren't steep enough, given the 75% average increase in gear level. *If* they were happy with the level 60 conversion rates (as opposed to the level 70 conversion rates), and *if* 70 to 80 sees another 75% average increase in gear level, then you might assume roughly a 1.75*1.75 = 3.06 multiplier of the level 60 conversion rates (i.e. 14 critical strike rating per 1% crit converts to 14*3.06 = 42.8 critical strike rating per 1% crit). That is, if we don't consider the level 70 values at all.

And that appears to be approximately what we're seeing in these numbers (well, these indicate about a 3.2x multiplier).

So if the falloff is steeper than it was from 60 to 70, then it could well be because they're adjusting for a 60->70 transition that they didn't feel was steep enough, without actually nerfing the level 70 rates.

♦ Praetorian · 07/31/08, 11:39 AM

Fantastic post, thanks. Hopefully you can get a mod-author beta key soon.

Lord BEEF · 07/31/08, 11:58 AM

This actually makes the new gems at level 80 slightly weaker than the ones we have at level 70.

That is to say, a 10 hit rating gem on a level 70 provides more hit than a 20 hit rating gem provides for a level 80. Very slightly so, but it's still there.

• Hamlet · 07/31/08, 12:03 PM

Originally Posted by Lord BEEF

This actually makes the new gems at level 80 slightly weaker than the ones we have at level 70.

That is to say, a 10 hit rating gem on a level 70 provides more hit than a 20 hit rating gem provides for a level 80. Very slightly so, but it's still there.

Well, it's within an integer step of the same value (i.e. the amount of HR required to be exactly equal to the hit you currently get at 70 is between 20 and 21). I think that's all that's going on here.