Combat Ratings at level 85 (Cataclysm) - Page 21

Hinalover · 08/18/09, 3:14 AM

Originally Posted by Whitetooth

I'll be interested if anyone gets different numbers and what caused it(most likely some talent or buff modifying dodge I missed), because that means something is broken and I'd like to fix it

I made some fixes to LibStatLogic, please use r69 or newer, thanks!

Yea it probably was a talent somewhere because I tried it on both my mage and my druid and both numbers match up.

Talented on my feral druid, I come up with .0208.

I went through each point and I think it's a combination of "Survival of the Fittest" and "Improved Mark of the Wild". Because I had 3/3 "Survival of the Fittest" set, I was at .0209 when I did 1/2 "Improved Mark of the Wild", but it switched to .0208 when I went to 2/2 "Improved Mark of the Wild". I tried it the other way around, with getting 2/2 "Improved Mark of the Wild" first and it stayed .0209 until I did 3/3 "Survival of the Fittest" (.0209 for 2/3, but .0208 for 3/3)

This is using r69 FYI

Archi86 · 08/18/09, 3:50 AM

Untalented with any gear on allways returned 0.0209 value for lvl 80 Rogue. Value started to change again when i specced onto Lightning Reflexes in combat tree.

Edit: used r69 too

Whitetooth · 08/18/09, 4:26 AM

Originally Posted by Hinalover

Yea it probably was a talent somewhere because I tried it on both my mage and my druid and both numbers match up.

Talented on my feral druid, I come up with .0208.

I went through each point and I think it's a combination of "Survival of the Fittest" and "Improved Mark of the Wild". Because I had 3/3 "Survival of the Fittest" set, I was at .0209 when I did 1/2 "Improved Mark of the Wild", but it switched to .0208 when I went to 2/2 "Improved Mark of the Wild". I tried it the other way around, with getting 2/2 "Improved Mark of the Wild" first and it stayed .0209 until I did 3/3 "Survival of the Fittest" (.0209 for 2/3, but .0208 for 3/3)

This is using r69 FYI

Originally Posted by Archi86

Untalented with any gear on allways returned 0.0209 value for lvl 80 Rogue. Value started to change again when i specced onto Lightning Reflexes in combat tree.

Edit: used r69 too

Thank you, I now have an idea of how to fix this, gonna test on PTR.

Whitetooth · 08/26/09, 5:17 AM

First post updated with 3.2.0 dodge/agi stats. And the talent calculation problem for dodge/agi has been fixed in LibStatLogic r73

Hinalover · 08/26/09, 12:20 PM

using r73, untalented, no gear, it's working fine. Even Talented, with no gear it works. Just as an FYI, it looks like if a Feral Druid is specced, once we get a certain amount of gear on, it lowers the conversion. I cannot be certain but it looks like once Feral Druids get somewhere between 81 and 122 passive Dodge that the conversion drops. Because I had my T8.5 helm, chest, T8 Shoulders, [Shard of the Crystal Forest], and [Cloak of the Shadowed Sun] just on, no extra buffs were on.

Strength: 208
Agility: 435
Stam: 844
Defense: 417 (increase chance to dodge: .68%)
dodge: 81 (Dodge: 16.66% in caster)

Here I'm still running at .0209. When I add [Gatekeeper], it drops it down to .0208

Strength: 255
Agility: 435
Stam: 935
Defense: 417 (increase chance to dodge: .68%)
dodge: 122 (Dodge: 17.45% in caster)

I can check if this happens untalented but with gear, but I think that would keep the dump at .0209, even with just these 5 items. I'm not sure is Feral Swiftness and Natural Reaction are affecting it; though I don't think so given that they only add dodge in bear form and I do all my testing in caster form.

I can also check if enough agility -> dodge causes this problem as well, since I have a very good Kitty set going.

Edit:

Ok, I don't know what is causing it. I just tried with ONLY my [Shard of the Crystal Forest], my [Cloak of the Shadowed Sun] with [Scroll of Enchant Cloak - Major Agility], and my [Gatekeeper], it stays at .0209. However when I add in the [Mark of the Relentless], it changes to .0208

Edit2:

Ok, untalented, with the 4 items listed above: .0209
untalented with all tanking gear: .0209

Edit3:

It looks like it's the "Improved Mark and "Survival of the fittest" talents again. Went through both ways again and the number came up with JUST the 4 items I listed.

Stats with JUST the 4 items listed; Talented:

NE Druid

Strength: 296
Agility: 117
Stamina: 522
Armor: 1187
Defense Rating: 66
Increased Chance to Dodge: .52%
Dodge Rating: 152 (adds 3.36%)
Dodge %: 11.89%

Armadeus · 08/26/09, 2:08 PM

Do we know how diminishing returns works with block value for shield slam yet? I did some calculations assuming that diminishing returns starts at 2400 BV (not including BV from strength) and assuming that the cap is 2760 (which I don't think it right). The math makes no sense. When diminishing returns starts at 2400 BV your effective BV would go to 1300. I think there must be some other value used for the BV cap, but I have not seen any theorycrafting on it yet.

I would do the work myself but I don't have a set of gear with 2400 BV.

Gruntle · 08/27/09, 3:58 AM

It's the damage contribution to Shield slam that is capped to 2760 (at least that is what the patch notes say). Block Value diminish in value after 2400 (for SS damage), but as you say we don't know at all at what point it becomes useless (that is, at what on-gear BV the resulting damage contribution becomes 2760).

• Aldriana · 08/31/09, 7:59 PM

Summary: Current PTR testing shows a nerf to ArPen - the 25% buff appears to have been scaled back to 10%.

Details: With 498 ArPen, live tooltip shows 40.43% reduction, while PTR shows only 35.58%; note that 35.58% is consistant with 498 * 1.1 / 15.39529991 = .35582288. In terms of testing, gouging the combat dummy with 3415 AP (base damage: 718.15) yields damage of 479-480 with no debuffs and 522-523 with sunder; using the (live) 40.43% number gives expected damages of 488.62 and 532.42, while using the PTR 35.58% number gives 479.65 and 522.65.

Thus: the actual damage done matches the tooltip, which is consistant with the 25% ArPen buff being cut to 10%.

Whitetooth · 09/01/09, 12:23 AM

Originally Posted by Aldriana

Summary: Current PTR testing shows a nerf to ArPen - the 25% buff appears to have been scaled back to 10%.

Details: With 498 ArPen, live tooltip shows 40.43% reduction, while PTR shows only 35.58%; note that 35.58% is consistant with 498 * 1.1 / 15.39529991 = .35582288. In terms of testing, gouging the combat dummy with 3415 AP (base damage: 718.15) yields damage of 479-480 with no debuffs and 522-523 with sunder; using the (live) 40.43% number gives expected damages of 488.62 and 532.42, while using the PTR 35.58% number gives 479.65 and 522.65.

Thus: the actual damage done matches the tooltip, which is consistant with the 25% ArPen buff being cut to 10%.

I can confirm this change on PTR. LibStatLogic-1.1 r75 updated accordingly(with version detection).

Rating	Level 60	Level 70	Level 80
Armor Penetration(3.2.0)	3.756097412	5.92307663	12.31623993
Armor Penetration(3.2.2)	4.268292514	6.730768897	13.99572719

ildon · 09/01/09, 5:06 AM

ArP change may be a bug. This post is relevant.

Edit: Oops you posted in that thread!

Tinwhisker · 09/01/09, 9:47 AM

Originally Posted by ildon

ArP change may be a bug. This post is relevant.

Edit: Oops you posted in that thread!

That doesn't have any bearing on whether it's a bug or not, Dresorull is part of the QA team. While they usually know about changes made to the PTR so they can test them, it isn't always the case that they do. Since it has been posted on the PTR forums though we should have confirmation soon about whether this change was intended or not.

But looking at the facts that the tooltip and damage are consistent plus this ArP scaling value is new (not previously seen on any PTR or live) it seems very likely that this change is intentional. The only question is whether this change will make it to live as it will have noticeable effects on those classes that may be gem'ing for ArP right now including rogues, hunters, warriors, and DKs.

alienangel · 09/01/09, 10:17 AM

Originally Posted by Tinwhisker

That doesn't have any bearing on whether it's a bug or not, Dresorull is part of the QA team. While they usually know about changes made to the PTR so they can test them, it isn't always the case that they do. Since it has been posted on the PTR forums though we should have confirmation soon about whether this change was intended or not.

But looking at the facts that the tooltip and damage are consistent plus this ArP scaling value is new (not previously seen on any PTR or live) it seems very likely that this change is intentional. The only question is whether this change will make it to live as it will have noticeable effects on those classes that may be gem'ing for ArP right now including rogues, hunters, warriors, and DKs.

Er, is the tooltip and actual damage being consistent on the PTR evidence of a nerf or just evidence of a fixed tooltip? I was under the impression the tooltip on live was just wrong compared to observed damage:

Marksman questions

That being said, a slight nerf wouldn't be out of place. Given their dislike of the stat as evidenced by its removal in 4.0, having several classes ArP capped through two full tiers (softcapped or hardcapped through all of CC, and hardcapped through all of Icecrown) seems silly.

Mazz · 09/01/09, 1:06 PM

Originally Posted by alienangel

Er, is the tooltip and actual damage being consistent on the PTR evidence of a nerf or just evidence of a fixed tooltip? I was under the impression the tooltip on live was just wrong compared to observed damage:

Marksman questions

Since Aldriana tested with Gouge on both live and the PTR and saw the exact damage difference he expected for ArP rating being less effective, I'd say it is not a tooltip correction.

alienangel · 09/01/09, 1:22 PM

Originally Posted by Mazz

Since Aldriana tested with Gouge on both live and the PTR and saw the exact damage difference he expected for ArP rating being less effective, I'd say it is not a tooltip correction.

Apologies then, reading her post it didn't seem clear she had also tested on live.

Mazz · 09/01/09, 1:28 PM

Actually, it looks like I am the one that missread the post. Aldriana mentioned the expected damage on live... he did not explicitly say if he also tested it on live.

Edit: So I tested it myself. The ArP tooltip on live seems to be correct.

3945 AP, 302 ArP rating (24.52% on the tooltip, consistent with 302 * 1.25/ 15.39529991), base damage on gouge 829 *1.06 = 878.74 (6% extra because of Find Weakness) The ArP formula comes up with 0.64108 without sunders, expose or FF. 878.74 * 0.64108 * = 563.3435, Gouge hit the boss target dummy for 563-564.

Hinalover · 09/02/09, 8:51 AM

using version r81, it looks like the Improved Mark and Survival of the fittest talents are working with the agility -> dodge dump. in both kitty spec in kitty gear as well as tank spec in tank gear, I'm getting .0209 for my dump. Both specs spec into both of those talents. Right now my kitty gear stacks agility so it's showing that won't affect the dump as well.

Whatever fixing "returning 1.#INF" did fixed the feral druid problem.

Whitetooth · 09/05/09, 12:11 AM

GC has confirmed the ArP nerf on PTR
World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Armor pen nerf in 3.2.2

Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler

The nerf to armor pen in 3.2.2 is intentional. Compared to the recent buff where we increased the value of armor rating to 125%, this nerf would take it back down to 110%. While we are still evaluating the effects of this change in the 3.2.2 build, we did want to let you know of the possibility in case you were about to spend a lot on armor pen gems.

In fact, this was really the point. Several melee specs (and Marksman hunters) had begun to focus on armor pen at the expense of all other stats. Gear without armor pen was being passed over and gem sockets were increasingly being filled with just this one stat. While every spec has stats that are more valuable than others, this one felt like it was starting to trump everything. Not coincidentally, characters stacking lots of armor pen were starting to do more damage than their peers and more damage than we were comfortable with.

This change is largely for PvE reasons, though we won't cry at all if melee damage in PvP drops a little as a result.

We're letting you know now so that this doesn't feel like a stealth nerf, assuming it goes live. While you might disagree or be frustrated by the change (though I also suspect it won't come as a surprise to many players), we ask that you try and keep your response to something appropriate for these forums.

dedmonwakeen · 09/10/09, 10:26 AM

Does a mob's chance of parrying/blocking a tank depend upon the difference in their levels as it does for miss/dodge?

bung · 10/02/09, 2:55 PM

I'm trying to make a simple spreadsheet to calculate how much buffed HP I have:

Formula Looks something like
TOTAL_HP = (total_stamina)*1.1(HotW)*1.06(SotF)*1.02(IMotW)*1.1(Kings)*1.25(Bear)*10(HP/sta) + (HP_modifiers)

Total Stamina includes:
IMotW = 52
IFort = 214
Gear+base = 2560 (from character tab unbuffed in human form)

HP Modifiers include:
Commanding shout or Blood Pack
Flask

My numbers come out to be about 3K less then what I've actually seen. I am putting in 2826 for total_stamina and 0 for HP_modifiers getting 46214 HP, I believe unflasked I've seen 51K+.

Am I completely wrong at my approach? Am I forgetting something stupid like a buff or base HP naked is not included in character sheet?

EDIT: Discussion moved to correct post
Feral Druid Numbers (updated for 3.2.2)

Hinalover · 10/02/09, 3:04 PM

Originally Posted by bung

I'm trying to make a simple spreadsheet to calculate how much buffed HP I have:

Formula Looks something like
TOTAL_HP = (total_stamina)*1.1(HotW)*1.06(SotF)*1.02(IMotW)*1.1(Kings)*1.25(Bear)*10(HP/sta) + (HP_modifiers)

Total Stamina includes:
IMotW = 52
IFort = 214
Gear+base = 2560 (from character tab unbuffed in human form)

HP Modifiers include:
Commanding shout or Blood Pack
Flask

My numbers come out to be about 3K less then what I've actually seen. I am putting in 2826 for total_stamina and 0 for HP_modifiers getting 46214 HP, I believe unflasked I've seen 51K+.

Am I completely wrong at my approach? Am I forgetting something stupid like a buff or base HP naked is not included in character sheet?

Are you factoring in Commanding Shout as well. I know that would increase your health by a bit.

d07.RiV · 10/04/09, 4:23 PM

Has anyone got an agility to dodge table for all levels?
I tried taking the 80 rates and applying the same scaling as used by avoidance ratings but its slightly off (though I only tested it on a 20 druid so far).

I guess I will end up grabbing tons of armory profiles and getting the values from them (but I'm not sure what to do about levels 1-10 if anyone ever needs those).

Edit: it seems this threat isn't getting much views; nevertheless I got dodge per agi values for most class/level combinations. I am trying to find leveling guilds on other servers.
So far I am noticing slight inaccuracies in my results, e.g. level 75 DK has 0.017094 agi per dodge while 76 has 0.017263 - I hope these are rounding errors, then it would be possible to smoothen the curves after I get the remaining results.
Any idea how bliz gets these numbers? Do they set a value they want for key levels (like 60, 70, 80) and then use a certain function to interpolate?

Another point, in StatLogic .lua it says that 16% miss cap was only tested for warriors and assumed to be the same for other classes; while wowwiki says its exactly 16% for tanking classes. Could one trust this information?

AnrDaemon · 11/22/09, 5:07 AM

Could someone with proper power please see to fix LaTeX renderer?

Nachti · 12/14/09, 11:06 PM

First of all, thank you for all that great work, it is very much appretiated.

I have a question regarding the miss cap (16%). The avoidance caps are supposed to be unreachable because of DR, right? But when I use the formula you or Satrina mention, I get results over the miss cap. I am a Night Elf frost specced Death Knight, so it's like this:

1% Stoneskin Gargoyle
5% base miss
2% Night Elf racial
3% Frigid Deathplate
161 Defense Skill

Undiminished miss: 1+5+2+3=11%
Prediminished miss: 161*0,04=6,44%
Diminished miss: 1/(1/16+0,956/6,44)=4,74
Total miss: 11+4,74=15,74%

That's pretty close to the cap. If I got some more defense rating (no problem really) it would push the miss chance over the cap. Is everything above the cap just lost? Or is there a mistake in my formula? Or is there just something stupid I'm overlooking?^^

Prinsesa · 12/15/09, 6:44 AM

Nachti, the avoidance DR only applies to any avoidance you gain from combat ratings or AGI. Direct amounts of avoidance are not factored in.

To put it another way, if you're getting 11% miss from your listed effects, and another 2% miss from defense rating pre-DR, the 5% will be diminished with respect to the 16% cap as 5% miss, not as 13% miss.

This actually means that it's still theoretically possible to become completely unhittable without block, since the amounts of avoidance you get from base and from talents can add up to you needing avoidance-from-gear that wouldn't hit the 88% dodge / 47% parry caps.

Ydy · 01/10/10, 11:53 PM

After some long discussions and searching different articles and forums I am a little bit confused now. Sorry, if this question has been asked too often in the past (couldnt find an answer anywhere) and sorry for my bad english.

How is avoidance calculated exactly ? Using a one-roll-sytem (miss + parry + dodge) or using a multiple-roll-system (1st rolling for miss, then rolling for dodge and last for parry) ?

This would be important for the new Debuff (-20% dodge) in ICC, so please answer only if you know for sure.

Sample calculation using only 20% parry and 30% dodge (no miss, DR, ...)

One Roll System:
Avoidance: 50%
Avoidance w. Debuff: 30%
Loss of 20%

Two Roll System:
Avoidance: 44%
Avoidance w. Debuff: 28%
Loss of 16%

Which one is correct ?