Elitist Jerks Combat Ratings at level 85 (Cataclysm)

10/08/08, 4:04 AM   #301
Selmarix
Piston Honda

Dwarf Hunter

Turalyon (EU)
 Originally Posted by Astrylian Do we know the value of C for misses, specifically for druids?
Unfortunately that requires a lot of testing that is difficult to do (because of no direct way to retrieve miss values after DR).

So someone would have to get an equal level mob to attack a lot of times (without dieing) and then the same for different amounts of defense equipment.

That is far more time consuming and difficult than the parry and dodge data collected in this thread which is probably the reason why no one has done it yet.

 10/08/08, 5:47 AM #302 Jerry Von Kaiser   Jerryak Night Elf Druid   Dalaran (EU) Whatever the case, it won't affect your avoidance much. With crush removed from the combat table, and crit reduction not on diminishing returns, the only effect of whether or not Miss has diminishing returns will be in a fraction of percent of chance to get hit or not. With DR on dodge as it is right now, it's impossible to get full avoidance. If the innate miss chance of 5% is considered outside of DR (as are other base values), and if miss from defense use a diminishing return function similar to the one we know about, you will benefit from it quite a bit. The DR function is designed so that low values (before 5-10%) becomes bigger after DR, and only values above this threshold are diminished. To get +10% Miss before DR, you must have a defense bonus of 250, or 1230 defense rating bonus. It's a lot of defense. You only need 125 defense bonus to get crit immune (50 for a druid) plus 15 to compensate for boss level, and that amount as already been reported as quite difficult to achieve with blue gear. So yes, I'm speculating, but you can be certain that the difference between miss using DR or not has a really small effect on your avoidance, and it's probably a positive effect if there is one.
10/08/08, 6:47 AM   #303
Prinsesa
Bald Bull

Echo Isles
 Originally Posted by Jerry Whatever the case, it won't affect your avoidance much. With crush removed from the combat table, and crit reduction not on diminishing returns, the only effect of whether or not Miss has diminishing returns will be in a fraction of percent of chance to get hit or not. With DR on dodge as it is right now, it's impossible to get full avoidance.
Playing around with my Paladin's gear, I found that it was still possible to get my total miss/dodge/parry/block to ~115% with Holy Shield up.

Of course, this isn't the same as the Rogue or Druid feats, since partial blocks still deal damage, but it was interesting to see that unhittable is now a Paladin-specific property.

"We do want Sanctuary to be the tanking seal"

- Ghostcrawler

10/08/08, 7:57 AM   #304
Jerry
Von Kaiser

Night Elf Druid

Dalaran (EU)
 Originally Posted by Prinsesa Playing around with my Paladin's gear, I found that it was still possible to get my total miss/dodge/parry/block to ~115% with Holy Shield up. Of course, this isn't the same as the Rogue or Druid feats, since partial blocks still deal damage, but it was interesting to see that unhittable is now a Paladin-specific property.
I suspect Warrior also achieve this easily (although at very specific times) with Shield Block. But block is not avoidance (and thus not subject to DR). I also think that Shear-like abilities, with strange combat tables, are things of the past now, so removing hit from the combat table won't be necessary anymore.

10/08/08, 8:40 AM   #305
spookz
Glass Joe

Human Rogue

Perenolde (EU)
 Originally Posted by Prinsesa Armor Penetration Rating is applied AFTER debuffs, which still reduces armor by a set amount. Consider a boss with 7,600 armor and a level 70 player with 700 Armor Penetration in 2.3 After level 67 Sunder Armor (5 stacks of -520 armor each, for a total of -2600), the boss now has 5000 armor. With 700 Armor Penetration, the boss would now only have 4300 armor. Once 3.0 hits, 700 ArPen will be converted into 100 ArPen Rating. 100 ArPen Rating is worth 13.5% armor penetration at level 70, so from 5000 armor, the boss would now only have 4324 armor.
You are missing the other -Armor debuffs like CoR and FF.

Boss Base Armor: 7685 (normal bosses)
5xSA = 2600, FF = 610, CoR =800

7685 - 2600 - 610 - 800 = 3675 Bossarmor after Debuffs.

For a Player with 700ArP the result is 2975 or 19% reduction. (2.4)

when 3.0 hits:

FF/CoR no longer stack and both reduce armor by 610

7685 - 2600 - 610 = 4475 after Debuffs

700ArP=100ArpRating ~ 13,5% ~ 604 reduction = 3871 Bossarmor which is +996 (or +30%!)Armor compared to 2.4

So first the remove stacking of FF and Cor which results in +800 Armor and second they nerf ArP by Convertig it to Rating and % based reduction.

The numbers indicate that they converted ArP from a very good Raiding stat to the worst of all stats (at least for Rogues)

 10/08/08, 3:08 PM #306 Doggett Glass Joe   Reyes Gnome Warrior   Turalyon (EU) Has the defence rating conversion changed on beta recently? Wowhead tooltips seem to be giving about 5.59 rating to 1 defence skill at level 80 now; is this accurate?
10/08/08, 3:16 PM   #307
Whitetooth
Piston Honda

Orc Warlock

Ner'zhul
 Originally Posted by Doggett Has the defence rating conversion changed on beta recently? Wowhead tooltips seem to be giving about 5.59 rating to 1 defence skill at level 80 now; is this accurate?
Just did a quick check on build 9061 files, my numbers in the first post are still correct.

Last edited by Whitetooth : 10/09/08 at 12:36 AM.

Hotdogee@Ner'zhul US <Bahamut>
Author of RatingBuster

 10/08/08, 11:41 PM #308 Muphrid Don Flamenco   Muphrid Gnome Mage   Stormrage Okay, after some discussion spurred on by the beta forums, I've figured out a series expansion for average time-to-live as a function of pre-diminshed avoidance. $T(a_u)= \frac{1}{1-a_0} + \frac{1}{(1-a_0)^2} \frac{a_u}{k} + \sum_{n=2}^{\infty} \left ( \frac{1}{1-a_0} \right ) ^{n+1} \left ( \frac{-(1-a_0-a_c)}{a_c} \right) ^{n-1} \left ( \frac{a_u}{k} \right )^n$ Where a_u is pre-DR avoidance (easy to convert to rating or agi), a_0 is base avoidance of that type (non-zero for dodge but 0 for parry, usually), a_c is the cap for that stat (in decimal, not percentage form--Whitetooth has given percentages), and k is Whitetooth's K. From this, I can refine my scaling analysis from earlier, which I believe was faulty. The overall scaling trend hinges on the cap. We can rewrite the summation (which carries the second- and higher-order terms) as so: $T(a_u)= O(a_u) + \sum_{n=2}^{\infty} \left ( \frac{1}{1-a_0} \right ) ^{n+1} \left (1 - \frac{1-a_0}{a_c} \right) ^{n-1} \left ( \frac{a_u}{k} \right )^n$ In particular, pay attention to this factor: $\left (1 - \frac{1-a_0}{a_c} \right) ^{n-1}$ If a_c = 1-a_0, then the whole summation drops out, and we have pure linear scaling. If a_c > 1-a_0, then the term is always positive, and the scaling is faster than linear (in fact, after playing with the cap some, I think this can be locally faster than exponential given a high enough cap). Conversely, if a_c < 1-a_0 (which is usually the case), the scaling is slower than linear. It may help in general to rewrite the summation as so: $T(a_u)= \frac{1}{1-a_0} + \frac{1}{(1-a_0)^2} \frac{a_u}{k} - \frac{a_c}{(1-a_0) (1-a_0-a_c)} \sum_{n=2}^{\infty} \left ( \frac{-(1-a_0-a_c) a_u}{(1-a_0) a_c k} \right )^n$
 10/09/08, 4:22 AM #309 Scrufola Von Kaiser   Scrufola Human Warlock   Kargath (EU) Is there anything known about the mana regen of warlock pets? This post indicates, that the Imp regenerates mana independent off spirit. Does someone have a macro which could output the required information to measure that? (Something like the avoidance macro).
 10/09/08, 10:05 AM #310 Whitetooth Piston Honda     Hotdogee Orc Warlock   Ner'zhul I used a base TTL of 1. For reference, 10 Armor gives 0.06565 TTL. Agi calculations include armor and dodge. Defense calculations include dodge, parry, -crit and -miss. Last edited by Whitetooth : 10/09/08 at 10:23 AM. Hotdogee@Ner'zhul US Author of RatingBuster
 10/09/08, 12:02 PM #311 • Melthu Confused   Melthu Troll Druid   Alterac Mountains Muphrid, I'm having trouble using your formula. Based on your description if we use a level 80 druid as an example I would guess k = 0.9720 and a_c = 1.16890707, right? My question is what do we use for a_0 and a_u? Let's say my equipment has 40 total dodge rating on it for ~1% dodge, pre-DR. Do I use 1, 1.01, or 0.01 for a_u?
 10/09/08, 12:08 PM #312 Nymph' Von Kaiser     Sylke Night Elf Death Knight   Conseil des Ombres (EU) Actually I think it remains possible to have full avoidance for a rogue in WOTLK, using the method I described a few monthes ago in the rogue avoidance tanking topic (adaptable and very complicated cycle of mitigation trinket/abilities/proc). However, with diminishing returns, I guess it will be only with outstanding gear, and there will be way fewer aggro generated. And it actually still depends of level 80 potions, etc. We'll see in two or three monthes.
10/09/08, 8:12 PM   #313
ranma
Von Kaiser

Night Elf Druid

Crushridge
 Originally Posted by Whitetooth I used a base TTL of 1. For reference, 10 Armor gives 0.06565 TTL. Agi calculations include armor and dodge. Defense calculations include dodge, parry, -crit and -miss.
I am surprised that other than defense rating, other avoidance stats have negative effects on TTL.

What did I miss here?

Edit: I understand it now, but can I delete my post?

10/11/08, 2:09 AM   #314
Embher
Glass Joe

Here I simplified these equations for people to estimate the increase in dodge % from changing gear, which is probably one of the most common goals/ problems to solve with these stats.

Maintankadin :: View topic - diminishing returns on parry to?

 According to his examples, x and x' are % values and they are % contributions from GEAR ONLY. ............ Simplifying the equations for finding the increased % when changing gear: Undiminished Dodge %(does not include base stats)= [(Defense rating with original gear)*defense modifier+(Dodge rating with original gear)/dodge modifier]+ [Increased Defense rating from the gear change*defense modifier+Increased Dodge rating from the gear change/dodge modifier] You cannot take the character sheet %-base dodge % because it really does show effects of diminishing returns. where dodge modifier converts to dodge rating to dodge%, e.g,. 18.9 at 70 where defense modifier converts to defendse rating to dodge%, e.g,. 0.04 at 70 x'd= 1 __________________ (0.011347 + 0.9560/Undiminished Dodge%)

Last edited by Embher : 10/11/08 at 4:50 AM.

 10/11/08, 10:06 AM #315 dr_AllCOM3 Great Tiger     Döc Orc Death Knight   Blutkessel (EU) What is the rage conversion value for level 80? That's something I'd really like to know . Maybe someone could ask in the US forum, since the Dev's don't reply in the EU forum.

 Elitist Jerks Combat Ratings at level 85 (Cataclysm)

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