Combat Ratings at level 85 (Cataclysm) - Page 5

Latas · 07/31/08, 9:50 PM

Originally Posted by Arawethion

You're getting closer. Can you just post the values at two levels of Int which are very far apart?

Ok, you are right i probably should.

Initial int - 511
Initial crit from int 6.89%

Changed int - 307
Changed crit from int - 4.8%

Difference in int - 204
Difference in crit from int - 2.09%

Leaving the int for 1% crit at 73 at 97.6076555.

So 100 was close but as you mentioned with such a small change somewhat inaccurate. Hope these new values help, I'll try to keep track of these each level from now on.

Densor · 07/31/08, 11:23 PM

Originally Posted by Akka

And I don't see how my point suffer, on the contrary : why fight inflation by changing the whole game system, if it's to keep with increasing this same inflaiton ?
Just make less ilvl increase. Start with blue ilvl 110-115 at lvl 70 (so they are on-par with previous max instances, not phasing them completely out of the game, at least for the alts coming thereafter), and only increase up to ilvl 150-160 blue for ilvl 80 five-men instances.
Meaning that T7 would be about ilvl 165-170 epics, just a bit above Sunwell. All's good, there is still progression, and you have avoided overinflation. WHY the need to jump into the stratosphere with ilvl 200 epics as first-tier raid gear ? This just scream about putting big numbers without a reason, and increasing the inflation problem.

If you wanted to reroll a DK in WotLK, and wanted to gear up for raids and heroics, would you rather get SWP epics or level 80 dungeon blues? If you were trying to design a level 80 raid instance, do you expect the players to have level 80 dungeon blues or SWP epics?

If you answer "SWP Epics" to the questions, have fun raiding SWP at level 80, except you need the gear from BT/Hyjal to do SWP, so raid those as well. If you answered "dungeon blues", you better hope that those dungeon blues are equivalent to the SWP Epics that other people could have, because if you are applying to a raid, the raid is going to want you in good gear. Having to decide between a SWP Epic'ed Warlock and a dungeon blue DK should actually require thought, right?

Guess what ilvl the level 80 dungeon blues need to be in order to match a ilvl 164 epic? 200. So, if the dungeon blues aren't ilvl 200 or close to it, then your level 80 DK is going to need to raid SWP in order to get geared for Naxx. Alternatively, all of Naxx could be blown through in a week by the SWP Epic'ed raids if you were to design it around ilvl 160 dungeon blues.

Because of how the system works, the only option is to make the level 80 blues ilvl 200 because that is the required ilvl for them to be equivalent to the SWP epics. Plus, since people like epics, new epics need to be designed, and given the way epics scale, the ilvl 200 epics will have tons of stats, making them awesome if the ratings don't take a huge hit.

Whitetooth · 07/31/08, 11:33 PM

First post updated with more data for crit per agi, spell crit per agi, base regen, formula yet to be found.

Borodin · 08/01/08, 5:33 AM

Regarding Roywyn's question about Boss Armour:

Generally I've noted that health scores have doubled as have the base damage scores for many melee attacks, but Sunder Armour only increases 50% (520 to 785).
Does this imply Armour values are only increasing by 50% or are the increases to things like Curse of Recklessness (20% via Frailty) and general physical DPS buffing (Improved BoM will boost BoM 50%) just mean Sunder Armour will be a comparitively smaller reduction in the Bosses Armour with the difference in damage made up from other sources.

Any comments from Beta on Armour scaling?

Veneda · 08/01/08, 6:28 AM

Originally Posted by Densor

If you wanted to reroll a DK in WotLK, and wanted to gear up for raids and heroics, would you rather get SWP epics or level 80 dungeon blues? If you were trying to design a level 80 raid instance, do you expect the players to have level 80 dungeon blues or SWP epics?

Ehm, I don't think SWP epics should be taken into equation at all. SWP was added as extra dungeon for extreme hardcore guilds - while initial raid encounters in WotLK are supposed to be something that general raiding crowd can cope with - that is people that did full ZA and probably part (or whole) MH/BT.

Again, SWP was extra, "buying time" content - not something designed for everyone as normal step in raiding progress.

So gear expected for players to have in initial raid encounters should be roughly equal to 136-141 epics - the ones players got in ZA, BT/MH and for badges. As rewards, they should obtain gear similar to the one from SWP (lev. 159-something).

It translates roughly to lev. 159-160 blues from normal WotLK instances (and couple of epics here and there) that will be good enough to start raiding.

Latas · 08/01/08, 6:33 AM

Originally Posted by Borodin

Regarding Roywyn's question about Boss Armour:

Generally I've noted that health scores have doubled as have the base damage scores for many melee attacks, but Sunder Armour only increases 50% (520 to 785).
Does this imply Armour values are only increasing by 50% or are the increases to things like Curse of Recklessness (20% via Frailty) and general physical DPS buffing (Improved BoM will boost BoM 50%) just mean Sunder Armour will be a comparitively smaller reduction in the Bosses Armour with the difference in damage made up from other sources.

Any comments from Beta on Armour scaling?

Well i can understand the huge increase in boss health as the amount of damage increasing debuffs and raid buffs have increased dramatically. If they didnt drastically increase the health of bosses you would have constant 2-3 minute raid boss fights, and overall they would be to easy unless they make the mechanics so insane that it has to be done in 2-3 minutes max.

Shakes · 08/01/08, 7:52 AM

Originally Posted by Veneda

Ehm, I don't think SWP epics should be taken into equation at all. SWP was added as extra dungeon for extreme hardcore guilds - while initial raid encounters in WotLK are supposed to be something that general raiding crowd can cope with - that is people that did full ZA and probably part (or whole) MH/BT.

Again, SWP was extra, "buying time" content - not something designed for everyone as normal step in raiding progress.

So gear expected for players to have in initial raid encounters should be roughly equal to 136-141 epics - the ones players got in ZA, BT/MH and for badges. As rewards, they should obtain gear similar to the one from SWP (lev. 159-something).

It translates roughly to lev. 159-160 blues from normal WotLK instances (and couple of epics here and there) that will be good enough to start raiding.

If you did that, you'd have:

a) Those that did sunwell upset that they get 0 upgrades from the first tier of raiding in WotLK.
b) Those that didn't do sunwell upset that their best progression path is to go and farm the (now significantly easier since they have level 80 stats/talents/skills) sunwell.

Veneda · 08/01/08, 8:34 AM

Originally Posted by Shakes

If you did that, you'd have:

a) Those that did sunwell upset that they get 0 upgrades from the first tier of raiding in WotLK.
b) Those that didn't do sunwell upset that their best progression path is to go and farm the (now significantly easier since they have level 80 stats/talents/skills) sunwell.

Point (a) is somehow valid but again, the fact that this forum is full of SWP farming/progressing players doesn't mean it's something Blizzard have to take in consideration, when designing new content for much wider group of players then present raiding community.

SWP people will be upset with first tier of WotLK raiding no matter what. Since Blizzard promised that Naxx will be proper "entry level" raiding dungeon, for SWP guilds it will be no challenge whatsoever and they will blitz through it in no time, no matter what gear it will provide.

On the other hand, average raiding guilds that new Naxx is supposed to be aimed for, even at level 80 will still have huge problems with SWP. Keep in mind that Naxx will be available in 10 and 25 ppl versions, while SWP will still be rather hard nut to crack for small groups. So at least those people will be forced to start in Naxx. As for bigger guilds - I can imagine some of them poking Sunwell few times... then leaving, because fights are too technical and hard to master. New Naxx, with its entry level content will be simply easier.

There is simply no need to make lev. 80 blue dungeon gear equal to top SWP epic one. And first tier of raiding gear in WotLK can be attractive for SWP raiders without insane item levels - Magister Terrace trinkets and various well tuned items are prime examples, how you can make great item without ilevel infaltion.

Nezralix · 08/01/08, 8:54 AM

Blizzard obviously doesn't agree that the highest tier of pre-expansion gear should drive you right up to the second tier of post-expansion raiding, so there's really no point in trying to argue for it. They've thought about it and made their decision, and it's been the same decision twice.

Densor · 08/01/08, 11:56 AM

Originally Posted by Veneda

SWP people will be upset with first tier of WotLK raiding no matter what. Since Blizzard promised that Naxx will be proper "entry level" raiding dungeon, for SWP guilds it will be no challenge whatsoever and they will blitz through it in no time, no matter what gear it will provide.

The idea is to make it so that progression isn't hindered by the need to gear up in old instances/dungeons. I also doubt they want to design an instance that is obsolete the moment it comes out. I don't recall Kara, Gruul's Lair, and Mag's Lair being instantly skipped over for SSC and TK at the start of TBC.

Also, ilvl 141 epics would translate to ilvl 173 blues, not ilvl 160 blues.

LockApologist · 08/01/08, 1:19 PM

Progression would not be hindered by needing to gear in SWP, as you don't need equivalent gear to start an instance. Progression implies your gear will improve as you kill bosses. SWP guilds would still breeze through the entry content regardless of gear (No one else remember Gruul kills in T3, Illidan kills in T4-5, etc?), and probably would still upgrade their SWP gear, due to stat priorities shifting with the new mechanics. Item level is not the only metric.

Assuming SWP gear as the norm for 70 means that the gear inflation is huge. Assuming it is mid/end BT means that some SWP gear is viable at 79-80, but there doesn't need to be such an amazing bump in ilvls and rating requirements.

And just because Blizz has one opinion doesn't mean that a.) they are right b.) we can't debate alternatives.

Nezralix · 08/01/08, 1:38 PM

Originally Posted by Densor

I also doubt they want to design an instance that is obsolete the moment it comes out. I don't recall Kara, Gruul's Lair, and Mag's Lair being instantly skipped over for SSC and TK at the start of TBC.

Partly because you had to complete them before you could set foot in SSC/TK.

coredumperror · 08/01/08, 2:45 PM

The change of spell hit to 9% has me fairly concerned. If you're in a raid with a boomkin, grouped with an ele shamam, and talented for 3% spell hit, you'll need 0 spell hit from gear.

That doesn't bode well at all, when you think about it. It'll marginalize the spell hit bonus from the Improved Faerie Fire talent, making it once again only truly useful for physical DPS. Every caster in an ele shaman group who got the hit talents will hit cap from gear without even trying. You'd think that the casters could just spec out of their +hit talents... but those talents all also reduce the mana costs of the spells they affect, so that's undesirable. And to top that off, having a boomkin will also partially marginalize the benefit of Totem of Wrath, since the spell hit will be moot.

We don't have hard numbers for any of the gear at 80, but unless the caster armor/weapons have no base hit rating at all, the moonkin and ele shaman synergies with are going to be half wasted. Considering that blizz is trying to consolidate DPS and healing gear, this may happen and my concerns will be assuaged... so here's hoping.

• Vulajin · 08/01/08, 2:50 PM

Originally Posted by coredumperror

We don't have hard numbers for any of the gear at 80

Ding ding ding. Blind speculation accomplishes nothing, you are basing your assumptions on gear at level 70, which was designed for a completely different system under which casters needed a lot more spell hit. I can't imagine what makes people assume, upon finding out that the base miss chance will be reduced, that itemization wouldn't also be changed to compensate.

Mynak · 08/01/08, 2:52 PM

Originally Posted by Bisbus

Am I crazy or will a fire mage only need 33 more hit rating at 80 than at 70? Assuming we're all using the melee scale now. If it's the spell scale I come up with two less rating needed.

9% miss rate minus 3% from talents= 6% needed x 32.8=196.8

With the increased ilvl values this leaves a ton of room for other stats.

That's the amount of hit for 6% for melee.

Mages and I'd assume most casters will only need 158 spell hit if there's no Ele Shammy or Boomkin.