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01/15/09, 12:45 PM
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#1486
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Bald Bull
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Crystalsong was clearly supposed to be pre-Storm Peaks / Icecrown leveling content
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I assumed it was clearly being put aside for something down the track. I wouldnt be surprised, however, if Crystalsongs sole purpose in WOTLK is to exist simply because lore said it should be there, and also to give Dalaran a semi-reasonable explanation to be so close to Icecrown with scourge-immunity. Neither of these scenarios would bother me, it's an attractive zone and good house for Dalaran to float above.
I love the idea of having ~3 zones left over on the way to 80. Most of us have alts, it's great to come in and start/end Northrend with a slightly different zone levelling experience. I honestly don't see what all the fuss is about. If people want to happily level in 5 zones, yet still do all 8 zones, they will be handsomely rewarded with G and great zone/quest experiences. If not, well thats your prerogative. But the option is always there for you to come back and enjoy them later should you change your mind.
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01/15/09, 1:29 PM
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#1487
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King Hippo
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I'm not saying the option is bad, just that you have to look at the opportunity cost.
And I'm sure they'll do something with Crystalsong eventually, probably turn it into more max-level content, but my point is that I think they put it off because they realized they already had too much midgame content, or at least that it wasn't necessary to add more.
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01/15/09, 3:06 PM
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#1488
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Don Flamenco
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I did the zones in mostly level order as well because of the lore. The Grizzly Hills troll storyline continues in Zul'Drak. The Borean Tundra blue dragonflight storyline continues in Dragonblight. The iron vs stone dwarves storyline starts in Howling Fjord, continues in Grizzly Hills and currently ends in Storm Peaks. Borean/Howling had roughly the same amount of scourge, but you could see their presence grow larger as you progress into Dragonblight, Zul'Drak then into Icecrown. Sholazar is the odd one out in terms of lore progression, but still has some good back story. Sure, it was probably faster to not level in order during the initial crush, but I don't think I would've enjoyed the story the same way.
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01/15/09, 3:19 PM
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#1489
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Don Flamenco
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Originally Posted by Douglas
Otherwise you don't spend time as an agent of Drakuru before he turns, and then you don't see why he has singled you out as special, and you don't see him voluntarily turn, and you don't understand why a powerful member of the scourge has targeted you when that thing drops in ZD, and all the quests for the then-undead Drakuru have considerably less context... but I don't want to explain all that to people. I just want the "do this then this then this, if you care about lore" list without spoilers so that people who seek it can have a rich experience.
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My one complaint (off the top of my head) about the storylines in WotLK is the Grizzly Hills -> Drak'Tharon Keep -> Zul'Drak transition for the Drakuru storyline. If you quest in GH as it feels like you're meant to (starting in the west and gradually sweeping your way east, doing everything along the way), you don't get the final Drakuru quest to go into DTK until you're almost done with the zone. After the major plot twist at the end of DTK, the Drakuru story picks back up almost immediately upon stepping foot in ZD, which is next in line after GH by level. If you're just casually questing along from point to point, get the DTK quest and pop into queue for a DTK run, and don't get a group in the next half hour to an hour of questing, suddenly you're sitting there staring at Overlord Drakuru in Voltarus thinking, "Uh. Hi? You're... different. Don't I have a quest to help you?" That happened to me while leveling my first character through Northrend, and it was very disconcerting. It's a really cool story, but it feels like they would have been well served by at least moving him up farther into Zul'Drak so you don't run into him so soon after finishing off the GH chain.
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Stand back! I'm going to try SCIENCE!
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01/16/09, 5:17 AM
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#1490
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In the hurricane season many people die
Orc Shaman
Twisting Nether (EU)
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Originally Posted by Liebestod
Are you really saying that having that extra 20 hours of leveling content is going to make the difference in keeping you around for the next 18+ months?
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yes/no. First it will be more than 20 hours for me, as it will be broken up to do other stuff (raid, heroics, pvp, dailies, etc), much more than while leveling, which adds some more time to it, and more importantly, makes some of the other stuff bearable. Personally I think I invested even now more than 10 hours per char (discounting dailies) due to that on doing some quests: a few in ZD, free the Ebon Blade base in IC, unlock Hodir in SP, etc.
Second, it won't have to keep me around for 18 months, just until they add more content, i.e. 3.1 probably. Which will probably add enough content for the higher level chars to do paralleling the leveling up of others.
Third, we're talking about two chars now, but more will follow. I.e. druid at 71, DK, ... 4 times 20 hours at say 8 hours a week (plus raiding, dailies, instances, etc) -> 10 weeks at least (plus the leveling of at least two chars).
But I think let's end it here. You would like less/faster content, I like it the way it is.
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01/18/09, 12:58 PM
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#1491
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Glass Joe
Erkolm
Tauren Druid
Non-US/EU Server
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Yogg-Saron and Ulduar
I have been doing some reading, and I'd like to get back to the topic of Yogg-Saron and his possible involvment in Ulduar for a second.
First off, let's have a look at where profound traces of his involvment can be found:
1) Howling Fjord
Loken:
Come, minions! Your master calls!
The work of your brothers in the Storm Peaks has reached a frenzied pace. Soon, Father will be freed.
Your brothers to the north have subjugated the stone behemoths and set them on the path to Ulduar. Soon, the remaining defenses of the Pantheon will be neutralized.
The three fissures opened by the mortals of this region must be silenced. The earth hears and sees what we do and will continue to interfere with our efforts if the way is not closed.
Bury this place, your master demands it!
Plus, the whispers in Whisper Gulch which are obviously Yogg-Sarons.
Notice that Loken is talking about freeing something here, in this case "Father". Keep that in mind.
2) Grizzly Hills
Obviously a lot of traces here, all of the Grizzlemaw-Quests basically coming to the solution that the old world tree was corrupted by Yogg-Saron, with Ursoc confirming this.
3) Icecrown
Firstly, there's the Saronite mines in Ymirheim. You hear whispers of the old god, plus the slaves try to reach "him" by jumping off ledges. Also, Darkspeaker R'khem, another faceless one, who disappers after being freed by us.
Secondly, Naz'anak and the Faceless Lurkers, who mention Yogg-Saron upon being engaged.
4) Dragonblight
Ahn'Kahet: Obviously lots of traces here, with Herald Volazj and the other Faceless ones at the end of the instance. There are a few quests that refer to the Nerubians "digging to deep" and "exposing a tendril of the old god's will" underneath Azjol'Nerub.
Also in Dragonblight there's this one quest that confirms that the Scourge and Yogg-Saron aren't working together, with the Scourge being afraid of him and all.
5) Storm Peaks
Now, let's get to the interesting part. What kind of traces are there in Storm Peaks? We have: - Thorim being enslaved by a bunch of tentacles - Loken mentions luring Thorim to his temple (which is closer to Ulduar than the Temple of Storms) in order to "fight closer to his masters power".
- Halls Of Stone: No real traces of him here, apart from a whole lot of lore during the Tribunal of Ages about the Titans and the Old Gods, and how the Old Gods were locked up beneath Azeroth.
- Halls of Lightning: Loken mentions Yogg-Saron and how he is going to free him, in essence confirming that "Father" is indeed Yogg-Saron.
Now, let's see where that leaves us: We can confirm Yogg-Saron has a lot of power near Ulduar, and this could leave us with the conclusion that that's where Yogg'Saron will be. The only thing that bugs me about this is that a titan temple isn't exactly where one would expect to find an Old God, especially not "the beast with the thousand maws". But remember: This isn't C'thun, and this is not AQ. Yogg-Saron has not been waging full-out war like the Silithids, he's only been "corrupting". We don't know whether he has armies or just a few followers who where imprisoned whith him beneath Azeroth. And now the most important question of all: If the titans were looking to keep Yogg-Saron safely locked up, why not build a temple full of their servants right ontop of his prison? True, that's not what they did with C'thun, but C'thun's story is different. C'thun fell in battle with the Titans and ended up in the desert of Silithus, he was hardly imprisoned there.
Keeping all this in mind, I think it is pretty safe to say that Yogg-Saron will be the final boss of the Ulduar raid, with us taking a big old Titan elevator down into his lair...or something like that. Ulduar will have to have an instantly recognizable endboss, and "corrupted thorim" just doesn't quite seal the deal. Seeing how all the lore builds up in Storm Peaks and expecially the Ulduar dungeons, anything short of facing Yogg-Saron in the raid just seems like a real let-down and wouldn't make any sense.
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01/18/09, 1:41 PM
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#1492
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Bald Bull
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Ulduar will have to have an instantly recognizable endboss, and "corrupted thorim" just doesn't quite seal the deal. Seeing
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You brush off the corrupted thorim idea too easily, it very well could seal the deal. The lions share of quests in Storm peaks deal with him in good detail and he has been well groomed well to be a potential boss (even the end boss) in Ulduar. Whether hes as epic as something like Cthun is another story, but you can use a sold, innovative encounter that compensates in that regard.
Personally I prefer the idea of a Corrupted Thorim in Ulduar and keeping Yogg-Saron for Azjol Nerub, even though I understand some lore/quest text in the game might not fully integrate with this. It makes sense to defeat the evil in Ulduar and then go kill 'the root of the problem' which is Yogg-Saron in an Azjol-Nerub raid - and stem the corruption he spreads throughout Northrend.
Last edited by Tyrian : 01/18/09 at 2:35 PM.
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01/18/09, 2:31 PM
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#1493
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Glass Joe
Erkolm
Tauren Druid
Non-US/EU Server
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Originally Posted by Tyrian
You brush off the corrupted thorim idea too easily, it very well could seal the deal. The lions share of quests in Storm peaks deal with him in good detail and he has been well groomed well to be a potential boss (even the end boss) in Ulduar. Whether hes as epic as something like Cthun is another story, but you can use a sold, innovative encounter that compensates in that regard.
Personally I prefer the idea of a Corrupted Thorim in Ulduar and keeping Yogg-Saron for Azjol Nerub, even though I understand some lore/quest text in the game might not fully integrate with this. It makes sense to defeat the evil in Ulduar and then go kill 'the root of the problem' which is Yogg-Saron in an Azjol-Nerub raid - and tend he corruption he spreads throughout Northrend.
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I absolutely agree that a corrupted Thorim could be a boss in Ulduar, and watching the exploration videos of Ulduar on Youtube shows a lot of evidence that there is an entire "icy" wing of the raid tailor-made for him. It's just the idea of having him as the endboss that doesn't seem to make a lot of sense. Seeing how the Horde and the Alliance are once again at war with each other and the Lich King so far has not been dealt any kind of blow at all it seems as if "go save Thorim, he has been corrupted" isn't a big enough incentive lorewise to have all Alliance/Horde forces storm the doors of Ulduar.
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01/18/09, 3:55 PM
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#1494
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Bald Bull
Night Elf Warrior
Sargeras
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Originally Posted by sleevenote
I absolutely agree that a corrupted Thorim could be a boss in Ulduar, and watching the exploration videos of Ulduar on Youtube shows a lot of evidence that there is an entire "icy" wing of the raid tailor-made for him. It's just the idea of having him as the endboss that doesn't seem to make a lot of sense. Seeing how the Horde and the Alliance are once again at war with each other and the Lich King so far has not been dealt any kind of blow at all it seems as if "go save Thorim, he has been corrupted" isn't a big enough incentive lorewise to have all Alliance/Horde forces storm the doors of Ulduar.
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Considering that it's your fault that he was corrupted in the first place, yes, there is incentive for you to get your butt into Ulduar and free him. 
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What is the most important thing to you? Won't you grant me the pleasure of taking it away.
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01/18/09, 5:05 PM
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#1495
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King Hippo
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Yeah, I agree that Thorim wouldn't be a good raid boss. I mean, Loken was more hyped up than him.
Maybe it'll turn out to be Al-Akir. Has there been any explanation of why air elementals are working with the iron dwarves? It's still probably too random, but it's worth throwing out there.
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01/18/09, 6:14 PM
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#1496
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Great Tiger
Night Elf Hunter
Moonglade (EU)
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Originally Posted by Emeraude
Considering that it's your fault that he was corrupted in the first place, yes, there is incentive for you to get your butt into Ulduar and free him. 
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It's his fault... honest... we wanted to help him, but he told us to butt out
However, it would make for a very good encounter, and considering he was supposed to be stronger than Loken, it does make sense that he'd be a more poweful raid boss, especially if he was granted new powers as a result of the old god corruption.
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Originally Posted by XI-
In summary, TBC raiding is easy. 9/10 encounters can be summarized with 1 phrase. Stay out of the fucking fire. If this is too difficult BWL was still there last I checked, so go have at it for some practice.
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Originally Posted by Kaubel
You people are idiots
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Guilty as charged ^
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01/18/09, 6:53 PM
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#1497
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Honorary Toastr
Night Elf Priest
Dragonblight
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Corrupted Thorim would be a disappointment in my eyes; but only because I am tired of fighting against corrupted people or even killing off enslaved people.
I would revel in fighting an enslaved Thorim whom we would free... and I would absolutely adore the idea of first battling Thorim, freeing him, and then having him join our side.
I also don't believe Loken is truely dead. There's no way Loken defeats Thorim and then falls to 5 people without any other assistance in Halls of Lightning. Maybe it was only an avatar of Loken or something. But I refuse to believe that was the real Loken and/or he is dead.
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Originally Posted by arison
Everyone should start from the same place and rise based on their abilities, desires, and schedule. No one plays MMOs to *be* powerful, they play MMOs to *become* powerful. It's the journey, stupid. The rarer loot is, the more cherished it is when you get it, but only so long as there is a reasonable expectation to get it. The rarer loot is, the better it feels when you kill a boss or when $AWESOME_TRINKET drops.
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01/18/09, 7:08 PM
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#1498
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Don Flamenco
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Originally Posted by Starfire
I also don't believe Loken is truely dead. There's no way Loken defeats Thorim and then falls to 5 people without any other assistance in Halls of Lightning. Maybe it was only an avatar of Loken or something. But I refuse to believe that was the real Loken and/or he is dead.
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Pawns are disposable, it's entirely possible that Yogg-saron no longer had any need for him. Perhaps the entire reason for Loken's corruption was to capture Thorim for Yogg-saron's schemes?
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Originally Posted by Relwin
If you need a shot macro to hold your hand then you are probably on the wrong forums.
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01/18/09, 7:30 PM
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#1499
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Von Kaiser
Troll Mage
Scarshield Legion (EU)
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Right, time for some ulduar speculation.
It's really hard to get an idea of the layout of ulduar from the exploration movies, but it seems that after you enter you reach a central room with big stairs, From there you can go left or right, both leading to a boss room at the end. Up the stairs you cross an invisible bridge to the main hall, from which you have four wings.
- an ice wing, containing at least one boss and probably more (several paths which are not explored in the movie)
- a jungle wing, which seems to just have one boss
- an arena wing, probably containing two bosses (one in the arena itself, one on the platform overlooking it)
- a wing which seems mostly unfinished now, naming it tree wing for now because of the big tree that is the only recognisable thing in there. There is also a big church like room shown which probably belongs in this wing.
Now combine those wings with this quest: Fate of the Titans
The jungle wing resembles sholazar basin so much Freya fits perfectly in there. The only alternative boss in that wing I can think of is a proto-dragon, if such a thing even exists. If Freya is in the jungle wing, it is very likely the other watchers are there as well. Hodir in the ice wing (the quest mentions his temple no longer having "cold weather patterns", maybe he causes them in ulduar now) and Tyr and Mimir could easily fit the remaining two wings.
To catch back on the final boss speculation, there doesn't seem to be an obvious room for a final boss. Probably some hole will form somewhere you can jump in order to go to Yogg-Sargon, but it would be really cool if he actually just surfaced in the main hall, destroying most of ulduar with it.
My bet on Thorim is that he will be similar to Akama. We face him early in the instance (perhaps in the first room with the stairs?), redeem him and then he will tell us to go redeem/kill the other watchers, followed by him (or them all) helping out on Yogg-Sargon himself.
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01/19/09, 2:20 AM
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#1500
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Don Flamenco
Tauren Druid
Steamwheedle Cartel
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Originally Posted by Plankel
Tyr and Mimir could easily fit the remaining two wings.
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Wouldn't we expect gnomeregan-style mechanical doohickeys and whatsits in a Mimir wing?
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