You know, those same guys that do all sort of nasty things to Forsaken civilians
There's no such thing as a Forsaken civilian. They are the. walking. dead. They do not feel fear, pity, pain or any living emotion. Just because they have free will and are no longer slaves of the Lich King doesn't make them human, let alone good. You can't even kill them, since they're already dead. What on Earth Thrall thinks he's doing allying with them is beyond me.
There's no such thing as a Forsaken civilian. They are the. walking. dead. They do not feel fear, pity, pain or any living emotion. You can't even kill them, since they're already dead. What on Earth Thrall thinks he's donig allying with them is beyond me.
Doesn't the same count for the Alliance? Aren't they running around with Death Knight's in their ranks and happily teaming up with the Ebon Blade. Just because the Forsaken are undead does not mean they are inheritly evil. They just have a different view on how to deal with things. Just like the Ebon Blade and Death Knights aren't afraid to get their hands dirty.
On a more logic related point though the alliance would be a fair bit stronger then the Horde if we cut off the Forsaken. They might not be the nicest of guys but neither are the orcs or trolls. Just look at the quest where you gather all kinds of materials to brutally poison a night elf prisoner for a darkspear witch doctor. And no matter how you look at it the Horde and Alliance don't seem to be very keen on just letting eachother coexist nicely. Meaning both sides need alot of militairy strength.
Objects are not deceiving, they are deception.
What we see what we hear, all that our sences present to us is a fiction no more real then a dream.
We can only know that which we believe, that is all we have.
I think a key difference is, the Forsaken are inhabiting the former Alliance capital of Lordaeron, the Death Knight's aren't exactly taking over Stormwind.
More support for this can be seen with Alliance settlers in Hillsbrad and Silverpine Forest. The Alliance wants their territories and cities back.
Originally Posted by arison
Everyone should start from the same place and rise based on their abilities, desires, and schedule. No one plays MMOs to *be* powerful, they play MMOs to *become* powerful. It's the journey, stupid. The rarer loot is, the more cherished it is when you get it, but only so long as there is a reasonable expectation to get it. The rarer loot is, the better it feels when you kill a boss or when $AWESOME_TRINKET drops.
I think a key difference is, the Forsaken are inhabiting the former Alliance capital of Lordaeron, the Death Knight's aren't exactly taking over Stormwind.
More support for this can be seen with Alliance settlers in Hillsbrad and Silverpine Forest. The Alliance wants their territories and cities back.
Which is a fairly large source of conflict with the Forsaken, given how many have simply returned to where they lived before the Scourge existed. The Forsaken absolutely have a legitimate claim to the territories. The Alliance has done a good job of forgetting that much of the Forsaken population was its own only a few years ago, and I think that reflects in the way territory lines are drawn in WoW.
edit: I looked at the alliance version of the Death Knight ending chain, songster, and i'm surprised that it's so different than the Horde equivalent. Does Varian yell anything after the fact like Thrall does?
Last edited by Niton : 03/07/09 at 8:11 PM.
Reason: reply to above
In Northrend, the early campaign was categorized by horde continually harassing alliance operations, as borne out by both Alliance and Horde quest texts. At the Wrathgate, the Forsaken destroy one possibly successful alliance offensive, and at the Broken front Horde troops laughingly destroy an Alliance offensive rather than see the Alliance doing better in the war than they are. Based purely on responding rationally to events in Northrend, the Alliance should never leave itself exposed to Horde betrayal again.
The Alliance and Horde were fairly friendly to each other up until the events at the Wrathgate. No Horde quests involved sabotage or aggression towards the Alliance until after Varian declared war. Also, the Wrathgate was a joint offensive between the Alliance and Horde, and considering how easily Arthas killed Saurfang Jr., I don't think "possibly successful" is an accurate description of the assault.
Originally Posted by songster
There's no such thing as a Forsaken civilian. They are the. walking. dead. They do not feel fear, pity, pain or any living emotion. Just because they have free will and are no longer slaves of the Lich King doesn't make them human, let alone good. You can't even kill them, since they're already dead. What on Earth Thrall thinks he's doing allying with them is beyond me.
There are such things as Forsaken civilians. Emotions have nothing to do with that. Simply because the vast mojority of Forsaken are embittered and hate you doesn't mean they're all walking around with the intent to make war on you. What's more is that there's not proof they feel none of those emotions with the exception of pain (which they most definitely DO feel). You're probably forgetting that most of the Forsaken were turned away from the Alliance they used to belong to before being turned into the undead and feared as monsters. They have a right to be bitter after finding their former friends and comrades to be so shallow, especially when those same people are trying to drive them out of their homes.
What's more, plenty of Forsaken are members of the Argent Crusade and other such "good" organizations now. What you say would have to apply to them as well. Does it?
There's no such thing as a Forsaken civilian. They are the. walking. dead. They do not feel fear, pity, pain or any living emotion. Just because they have free will and are no longer slaves of the Lich King doesn't make them human, let alone good. You can't even kill them, since they're already dead. What on Earth Thrall thinks he's doing allying with them is beyond me.
This is very wrong. They do feel all living emotions and they are completely capable of dying. Well as capable as anyone else (in reality not at all thanks ghost run, but in continuity they certainly die a final death) like many mythological undead they probably actually fear death by being killed (as opposed to old age) more than a mortal because the fact that they have inadvertantly cheated death leaves them scared that they will have no afterlife type thing. Also the time frame isn't exactly huge for how long any existing undead have been undead who is to say that they really are immortal?
The main weird thing about undead that might confuse you as to why they act/feel/think the way they do is because unlike real humans their actions aren't a result of brain chemicals mixing and their memories likely aren't stored in brain matter either they're probably alive in a more metaphysical spiritual sense and have their what makes them a person stuff more intangible than raw flesh. Although that's debatable for real humans too this is just rough fantasy stuff and not as intensey calculated in what makes the self the self.
There's no such thing as a Forsaken civilian. They are the. walking. dead. They do not feel fear, pity, pain or any living emotion. Just because they have free will and are no longer slaves of the Lich King doesn't make them human, let alone good. You can't even kill them, since they're already dead. What on Earth Thrall thinks he's doing allying with them is beyond me.
That would have surrounded better in the original German.
I jest, in part.
But the way Rageboy is acting....he's heading for a fall of epic (and deserved) proportions (just like his idiot-brother-in-stupidity Garrosh).
Garithos basically hated everything that wasn't human end enjoyed making thing hard for everyone else.... Then there's Admiral Proudmoore... Do I need to mention the Scarlet Crusade ambassadors in the Stormwind Cathedral and Nijel's Point? You know, those same guys that do all sort of nasty things to Forsaken civilians - and even to some humans for that matter.
At no point did I argue that Garithos was a saint, but the fact is that he was an Alliance commander, Sylvanas made a deal to help him retake Lorderon then leave, at the end when he demanded she leave she betrayed him and killed him. Whether or not you like Garithos, he was part of the alliance, he tried to work with Sylvanas, he held up his end of the deal, and he was betrayed and killed. That is a betrayal, and 'well we didn't like the guy' is not a good justification for betrayal.
Proudmoore did attack the horde right at the start of WOW time... and one of the Alliance leaders killed him rather than let him fight the Orcs, even though there wasn't any formal treaty at the time. If Thrall had killed Hellscream to stop the invasion of Ashenvale instead of making a statue of him and endorsing his war, I would not consider Ashenvale an example of horde aggression, but that's not at all what happened.
I have no idea why you even bring up the Scarlet Crusade ambassadors, the fact that the Scarlet Crusade talked to the Alliance doesn't make them part of the Alliance. Why do you think they're even worth mentioning when the Scarlet Crusade is a faction the Alliance clearly fights against? They aren't and have never been part of the alliance, and don't have any affiliation with the alliance (aside from being targets of attacks).
Originally Posted by Morlark
Not to put too fine a point on it, but yes, you appear to be missing quite a lot. Many of the things you've said so far have been mildly inaccurate, to put it politely.. For instance, if you're going to give examples of the Horde's "outright betrayal" of the Alliance, the Wrathgate, where the Kor'kron Vanguard were willing to come to Bolvar's assistance in a magnificent example of cooperation between the two factions, is undermining your case, to say the least. Enova has already pointed out how Garithos cannot possibly be considered the victim in that situation...
And the Horde never kidnapped Wrynn, the Defias did; granted they did use him as a gladiator slave, but that was without knowing who he was, and that merely proves that there was no intent of Horde hostility towards the Alliance.
If I'm inaccurate, then specifically point out my inaccuracies. Talking down to me and making claims which are contradicted by the game lore doesn't show that I'm 'missing quite a lot'. I'm not basing anything on 'propaganda', I'm basing it on events as seen in the game.
At the Wrathgate, the horde completely destroyed the Alliance force and let Arthas escape alive. That is a betrayal, the fact that a part of the horde worked with the Alliance before the betrayal is irrelevant to the fact that the Alliance tried to work with the horde, and ended up with the entire Alliance force dead at the hands of the horde and the enemy undefeated. Trying to paint it as an example of the Horde helping the Alliance is a case of "Other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?".
Enova's argument was basically 'Garithos wasn't a friendly guy, so betraying him doesn't count', and I don't buy that as justification. Sylvanas and Garithos had a deal, Garithos lived up to his side of the deal, Sylvanas betrayed him. I don't see how he could possibly not be considered the victim in that situation, and neither of you have provided a good justification for Sylvanas to go back on her promise to him, then murder him and his troops.
Wrynn went to negotiate with the horde, he was kidnapped, he ended up as a toy of the horde. Even if the horde did not perform the initial kidnapping, they certainly did accept his person and keep him imprisoned, which is still kidnapping in my book. I also don't see how an intention to kidnap Alliance civilians and have them fight to the death for entertainment demonstrates 'no hostility towards the Alliance', that appears to be a pretty hostile act to me.
(Edit: Always be careful that you add the correct spelling of names to your spell check)
So the cockroach vendor and the mushroom vendor are active parts of the Forsaken war machine? The extreme consequences of the "there are no civilians" mentality, at least in the real world, has lead to the tumbling of a number of tall buildings in NYC in recent years (right, Gnomes did WTC), and "collateral damage" elsewhere. I'm not going to continue that argument here. In WoW, it leads to daily quests and mediocre PvP.
Technically, there have been no civilians in either faction since the changes to the honor system, which no longer flags some npc's as such. However, you can't categorically ascribe enemy combatant status just based on faction membership or racial origin. Being a non-civilian goes to involvement in policing, the military, or belligerence, if you want to use a basic definition.
That just doesn't cover every member of any faction in WoW.
Originally Posted by Starfire
I think a key difference is, the Forsaken are inhabiting the former Alliance capital of Lordaeron, the Death Knight's aren't exactly taking over Stormwind.
More support for this can be seen with Alliance settlers in Hillsbrad and Silverpine Forest. The Alliance wants their territories and cities back.
Lordaeron fell to the Scourge and so did its cities. The remnants are largely Forsaken or Scourge, and to a lesser extent they comprise the Scarlet Crusade/Onslaught and various refugees. Only one of two of those remnant groups are established powers in former Lordaeron and both are undead.
The property interest isn't vested in factions, it's vested in the kingdoms that comprise those factions. That's how the Alliance has always worked and if you doubt that, look at the Alliance interactions with Gilneas, Alterac, and Dalaran.
Considering the Forsaken consist largely of citizens of the former kingdom of Lordaeron who were affected by the Plague of Undeath, their possession of those territories is arguably as close to the pre-plague status quo as can be expected. Forsaken quests have a theme of dealing with dispossession at the hands of the living and the fundamental problem that neither side recognizes the right of the other to exist. The Scarlet Crusade/Onslaught also factor into this equation, as they are also remnants of Lordaeron, who are no different from the other mainstream factions in their intolerance of others.
The problem is that all sides believe their possession of the Plaguelands (former Lordaeron) should be to the exclusion of all others, leaving non-Forsaken with no right of return and Forsaken with nothing that they currently have.
...
Vanadi covered the basic Forsaken relationship with their enemies. As this overall tangent relates back to the story in WotLK, the main defining feature of the Forsaken is their conflict with the Scourge. The other is dealing with being undead. I tend to wonder what they'd do after a raid is standing over the lootable Lich King corpse/chest.
Maybe they'll be like the Trolls, Blood Elves, Gnomes and Dranei are now; serving in a support capacity for their respective factions, but not really participating in the larger narrative. The Forsaken are similarly being set-up to be anachronisms.
[19:36:45.096] Spleen gains 15 energy from Spleen's Tricks of the Trade
[19:36:45.408] Osseric gains Tricks of the Trade from Spleen
At no point did I argue that Garithos was a saint, but the fact is that he was an Alliance commander, Sylvannis made a deal to help him retake Lorderon then leave, at the end when he demanded she leave she betrayed him and killed him. Whether or not you like Garithos, he was part of the alliance, he tried to work with Sylvannis, he held up his end of the deal, and he was betrayed and killed. That is a betrayal, and 'well we didn't like the guy' is not a good justification for betrayal.
Proudmoore did attack the horde right at the start of WOW time... and one of the Alliance leaders killed him rather than let him fight the Orcs, even though there wasn't any formal treaty at the time. If Thrall had killed Hellscream to stop the invasion of Ashenvale instead of making a statue of him and endorsing his war, I would not consider Ashenvale an example of horde aggression, but that's not at all what happened.
Grand Admiral Daelin Proudmoore got killed by Rexxar after proudmoore's attempt to eradicate the horde in kalimdor. And even then Thrall still tried to solve it through reasoning with him and instead he decided to attack Thrall.
And Garithros used and betrayed Kael'Thelas and the blood elves to fight battles for him and then threw them in prison . If you are going to state facts about betrayal at least make sure you tell them all. You also seem to be forgetting that it wasn´t the horde that betrayed the alliance at the wrath gate. It was the royal apothecary society under orders of Varithramas who was controlled by an outside source. Wether the Horde should have noticed the upcoming RAs betrayal is a different story. But the horde did not betray the alliance at the wrathgate. And even then the RAS attack on the lich king had more succes then the combined horde and alliance attack would have had. Arthas taking out saurfang that easily should be proof enough the alliance and horde forces where about to be annihilated.
Last edited by Vanadi : 03/07/09 at 9:10 PM.
Objects are not deceiving, they are deception.
What we see what we hear, all that our sences present to us is a fiction no more real then a dream.
We can only know that which we believe, that is all we have.
Not to mention that the Horde was just as betrayed as the Alliance in that event. By that point, the RAS was part of Varimathras's coup holding allegiance to the Burning Legion.
There's also something else that just occurred to me. In hindsight, it's easy for us to say 'yeah, but Thrall is guilty by association', and I'm sure as hell it's supposed to be easy for Varian to say that. But, unless we have clear evidence stating to the contrary, we can assume he was just as happy to resort to Putress' anti plague to cure his forces. That kinda voids any of his claims that Thrall should have seen it coming.
Originally Posted by XI-
In summary, TBC raiding is easy. 9/10 encounters can be summarized with 1 phrase. Stay out of the fucking fire. If this is too difficult BWL was still there last I checked, so go have at it for some practice.
No Horde quests involved sabotage or aggression towards the Alliance until after Varian declared war.
Although you may argue that the Alliance fleets started it, Vengeance Landing has fights between Horde and Alliance, as well as Horde recruits (you) bombing incoming ships with a trial form of the Forsaken plague.
Ah, that's true. My mistake. The few cases that I could remember of Horde/Alliance interaction was in Borean where the Horde returned deserters to the Alliance because they were taking up too much space in the pig pens.
Although you may argue that the Alliance fleets started it, Vengeance Landing has fights between Horde and Alliance, as well as Horde recruits (you) bombing incoming ships with a trial form of the Forsaken plague.
Uhhh, are we really going to argue that eliminating a deadly plague from being used against you is the same or worse as testing said deadly plague on your enemies?
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=CX81UJZ8
For the lurking Phoenix Wright faithful.
What is the most important thing to you? Won't you grant me the pleasure of taking it away.
Okay, I'm not sure about this, but I don't think we were still discussing ethics here; I think the idea was to prove that Alliance - Horde conflict pre-Wrathgate was limited to covert operations, not all out carnage.
Originally Posted by XI-
In summary, TBC raiding is easy. 9/10 encounters can be summarized with 1 phrase. Stay out of the fucking fire. If this is too difficult BWL was still there last I checked, so go have at it for some practice.
Uhhh, are we really going to argue that eliminating a deadly plague from being used against you is the same or worse as testing said deadly plague on your enemies?
I think he's saying that we already had evidence that the Forsaken were willing to use it on Living things rather than simply a plague to hurt undead things. If they were willing to use it then, why should we have assumed they wouldn't use it on us (alliance) at some point?
Originally Posted by Fellwraith
[Y]ou will tank 3 mobs, and only 3 mobs. 5 shalt thou not tank, nor shalt thou tank 4. Thou shalt not tank 2 mobs unless it is on the way to tanking 3 mobs.
It's unfortunate that we never see much of a forsaken reaction to the events of Wrathgate. They just ... cease to have a presence in Northrend (other than members of the argent crusade).
Was there a purge of RAS members? I sure hope so. What happened to all the forsaken refugees who we saw camped outside Ogrimmar? Presumably they were able to go home. Was there no internal move against Sylvanas for her dreadful lack of judgement in her advisors? No idea.
All we see of the Undercity externally is the RAS. So when the RAS stops, it seems as though their actions do too. Even though they are still the faction with the most personal grudge against Arthas. They still have a working plague that could be useful against the scourge, do they plan to do anything with it?
I thought it was a disappointing and rather abrupt end to that storyline tbh.
Uhhh, are we really going to argue that eliminating a deadly plague from being used against you is the same or worse as testing said deadly plague on your enemies?
I wasn't arguing morality, I was giving another example of Alliance vs Horde fighting pre-Wrath Gate.
Which is a fairly large source of conflict with the Forsaken, given how many have simply returned to where they lived before the Scourge existed. The Forsaken absolutely have a legitimate claim to the territories. The Alliance has done a good job of forgetting that much of the Forsaken population was its own only a few years ago, and I think that reflects in the way territory lines are drawn in WoW.
edit: I looked at the alliance version of the Death Knight ending chain, songster, and i'm surprised that it's so different than the Horde equivalent. Does Varian yell anything after the fact like Thrall does?
King Varian Wrynn yells: People of Stormwind! Citizens of the Alliance! Your king speaks!
King Varian Wrynn yells: Today marks the first of many defeats for the Scourge! Death knights, once in service of the Lich King, have broken free of his grasp and formed a new alliance against his tyranny!
King Varian Wrynn yells: You will welcome these former heroes of the Alliance and treat them with the respect that you would give any ally of Stormwind!
King Varian Wrynn yells: Glory to the Alliance!
You all seem to forget that Varian has seen how corrupted the Horde really is.
He has been a slave in their ranks for a long time and has seen all the horrible dark sides that makes up Horde culture. If you were a visitor in a 3rd world country and saw how they abused women and sold slaves and like savage beasts enjoyed watching and organizing gruesome arena games, would you still feel any sympathy for that culture? Let's also not forget the guy's entire family got killed by those same brutes that now act like they got no blame to take or nothing to repay for what happened.
The truth is that Thrall and Cairne ain't like that, okay. But as time goes by they seem to have lost control over the Horde. The Horde in the meanwhile has become that anarchistic savage society again it always seems to have been, no matter what mythological tales remained about the noble shamanistic society it once was.
I'm pretty certain Metzen already hinted quite alot of times that 'peacekeepers' like Thrall and Cairne will be gone out of the picture 'soon'. And that the Horde will be the warlike brutal people again as the name 'horde' suggests.
In my eyes Varian is the new main 'super-hero' good guy that is gonna set things straight (and I love seeing him do it in the comic book).
You all seem to forget that Varian has seen how corrupted the Horde really is.
The arenas, seriously? One of the arenas which is in Dalaran? I guess when they let the Blood Elves into Dalaran the whole place went to hell, right?
Of course, there are other things you didn't mention. Off hand from the comic I can think of story arcs involving the Grimtotems and the Warsong Clan, but much of this is supported by in-game material.
03/07/09, 7:54 PM
