World of Warcraft - Lore & Storyline discussion [SPOILERS] - Page 104

Douglas · 01/21/09, 5:38 PM

Originally Posted by zirky

One thing that always amused me is that we're what, 10 years max, from the the end of the RTS games? Arthas has managed to build himself one nice citadel with walls and a nice navy of crash prone Necropoli in the time since fleeing to Ice Crown. I suppose undead hordes needing no sleep can easily expedite construction, but the scale just seem far too large.

Remember where the necropoli come from. They're not being built from scratch. Most of them are pre-existing underground pre-undead Nerubian structures that the Lich King rips from the ground and sends into the sky. No, or very little, construction required.

As for structures built out of Saronite... it was once a part of a living entity (Yogg-Saron), yes? And the Lich King is adept at animating the undead. Is it possible that some of the Saronite structures are themselves undead creatures right now?

bv728 · 01/21/09, 9:23 PM

Originally Posted by Bregonn

Or the whole Deathknight intro, culmulating in that quest were you have to slay an old friend. I almost stopped right there and I've seriously disliked deathknights ever since (if not before). They're monsters, not heroes.

These evil quests are over the top. Don't put stuff like that in a (somewhat) roleplaying game. We're already murdering everything that stands in our way, if you take away the thin veil of doing it for Good (TM) then what distinguishes us from the Evil (TM) we're fighting?

The Theme (tm) of the expansion is Hubris - the Overwhelming Pride which leads us astray and sets us up to fall. Sure, Blizzard is a Railroading GM, but that's what the story is about, people deciding that they know better and need to break the rules to do what's right. The fact that the PCs are among those whose Hubris brings about these issues is a little interesting, even if it's badly written (a little).

Liebestod · 01/21/09, 11:21 PM

Originally Posted by Douglas

Remember where the necropoli come from. They're not being built from scratch. Most of them are pre-existing underground pre-undead Nerubian structures that the Lich King rips from the ground and sends into the sky. No, or very little, construction required.

As for structures built out of Saronite... it was once a part of a living entity (Yogg-Saron), yes? And the Lich King is adept at animating the undead. Is it possible that some of the Saronite structures are themselves undead creatures right now?

I'm suddenly envisaging an undead Yogg-Saron battle in Icecrown Citadel, kinda like the last (normal) fight on Cave Story against the Undead Core.

Ashen · 01/21/09, 11:30 PM

So I guess my questions are:

1.) Who is Med'an's father?
2.) How old should Med'an be, by now?
3.) And would / could Med'an bear a link to the Blood Elf and Draenei orphans (You know which ones I'm talking about

)

Spink · 01/21/09, 11:51 PM

1.) Who is Med'an's father?
a lot of speculation on the thread on scrolls of lore I linked earlier from Medivh to Krasus =x

Talgog · 01/21/09, 11:54 PM

Originally Posted by Bregonn

Or the whole Deathknight intro, culmulating in that quest were you have to slay an old friend. I almost stopped right there and I've seriously disliked deathknights ever since (if not before). They're monsters, not heroes.

I actually like the way Blizzard went with death knights. Much moreso than the warlocks, it's very clear what these guys are and there aren't a lot of apologies made for it. They are only semi-reformed at best, they don't play nice, they mostly aren't wanted around, but they get results.

Even Tirion Fordring isn't really fully comfortable with them. But they charge into the Cathedral of Darkness and save him.

Starfire · 01/21/09, 11:59 PM

What do you mean? Warlocks aren't innately evil or even evil at all therefore they don't need to reform.

Warlocks (at least some) are arcane users who seek to understand the demonic magics and perhaps get a little to close. Think of it this way; we don't associate undertakers or tombstone makers to be evil or murders or anything, even though they're in the "business of death" (and benefit from the death of others).

Randyll · 01/22/09, 2:29 AM

Originally Posted by Bregonn

These evil quests are over the top.

Not really. The player is a part of the Scourge at that point, he's supposed to be evil. Note that the word evil is very vague. Essentially, the player has two options: (1) Kill the prisoner (2) Disobey and face the Lich King's wrath. Moreover, it's very likely that the player doesn't have any memory of his past life (and he did die), the prisoner in question is talking about and thinks the prisoner is lying to save his own life. To me, that quest was just a plot trick to remind the player that he's playing a character that had a past (duh).

Talgog · 01/22/09, 3:28 AM

Originally Posted by Starfire

What do you mean? Warlocks aren't innately evil or even evil at all therefore they don't need to reform.

A Warcraft warlock is a soul-eating sadist vampire that is a direct offshoot from the Burning Legion that use fel magic, which is inherently evil and corrupting itself. If anything, they have much less of an excuse than death knights do, because you choose to be a warlock, whereas the intro cinematic for death knights makes it clear that they were good guys who went down swinging against the Scourge and not the Rivendare type.

Warlocks are three different kinds of evil. Period.

Enova · 01/22/09, 4:48 AM

Originally Posted by Talgog

I actually like the way Blizzard went with death knights. Much moreso than the warlocks, it's very clear what these guys are and there aren't a lot of apologies made for it. They are only semi-reformed at best, they don't play nice, they mostly aren't wanted around, but they get results.

Even Tirion Fordring isn't really fully comfortable with them. But they charge into the Cathedral of Darkness and save him.

I disagree with the your statement on how evil death knights are. While they still retain some of their thoughts and self awareness - unlike much of the Scourge - they are still held on a tight leash by the Lich King's mind link. They aren't inherently evil, as you might think. Of course, after being converted, some of them have gone completely homicidal and they love every minute of it, but there are quite a few situations where death knights actually exhibit some sense loyalty or chivalry, or even humanity. Zeliek keeps warning you to turn back; Razuvious pretty much congratulates you when you kill him. I could even point out the the DK starting quests: Thassarian asks you to save his friend although by Scourge customs he should have been left to rot and risen as a mindless ghoul; Mograine decides to spare his men rather than fight a losing battle. Also, need I point out that when you kill your old friend, you don't slap him and tell him to shut up, but, rather, you hear him out?

Also, further on, in Borean Tundra, Thassarian (Alliance only chain, Last Rites) explains a bit about his life as a Dk.

I served Arthas in death, because I had no choice. He had control over my will and my body. The Cult of the Damned serves Arthas in life... willingly.

Regan_ · 01/22/09, 8:54 AM

To be honest, even after playing the DK starter area, I can't quite wrap my arms around their motivations and personality. Are they innately malevolent and want to topple the Lich King out of spite for sending them on a suicide mission? Are they fighting for redemption? The several NPC DKs I encounter send mixed signals on the issue.

I have the same issue I always had with The Forsaken. They really don't lend themselves well to be a player race/class in league with the Horde/Alliance which forces the writers to make some compromises that water down the concept of the characters, while at the same time they have to keep the edgier parts that make them "cool".

Thairne · 01/22/09, 9:04 AM

Why can´t it just simply both at once?
The world isn´t always black or white. DK´s are pretty "grey" so to say.
I, for one, could very well imagine a character getting used for some mad scheme against his will, and, after the situation resolves, wanting to extract vengeance on the one causing this misery some call life. Wanting to redeem yourself isn´t far fetched either, especially when you aided what you fought (and lost your life against) earlier.
You´re free. You commited horrible acts against your own people, void of will. You feel bad about what you did, and god damn, that bastard WILL have to pay for not only taking your life, but taking away your past and all that was once important to you.

Aildrik · 01/22/09, 9:05 AM

Originally Posted by Bregonn

Or the whole Deathknight intro, culmulating in that quest were you have to slay an old friend. I almost stopped right there and I've seriously disliked deathknights ever since (if not before). They're monsters, not heroes.

These evil quests are over the top. Don't put stuff like that in a (somewhat) roleplaying game. We're already murdering everything that stands in our way, if you take away the thin veil of doing it for Good (TM) then what distinguishes us from the Evil (TM) we're fighting?

If I recall that quest correctly from beta, it was more than just a 'cackle while you kill friends' quest. You actually end up listening to your friend and in the conversation, the friend essentially gives you the luke talking to vader 'this isn't you' speech. Then the friend asks you to kill him because he knows you have no choice.

Again, unless this was changed in retail, I thought the quest was really well done. The entire intro quest chain did a good job of establishing DKs as having evil origins. However, you then go through the story and end up at the battle of light's hope chapel where your character essentially has a full epiphany as to what is really going on.

Enova · 01/22/09, 9:28 AM

Originally Posted by Regan_

To be honest, even after playing the DK starter area, I can't quite wrap my arms around their motivations and personality. Are they innately malevolent and want to topple the Lich King out of spite for sending them on a suicide mission? Are they fighting for redemption? The several NPC DKs I encounter send mixed signals on the issue.

Well, try not to think about the death knights as a community. They have very little in common except their training and their background in the Lich King's armies. And the fact that they're not really trusted by anyone, which makes them stick together.

Their common goal is to defeat the Lich King, but their reasons differ. What is neither of them want is to end up under his control again. Other than that, some do it for payback (the Horde are probably familiar with Koltiria Deathweaver - or, I think that's the exact name), some do it for redemption (Mograine), some do it for whatever's left of their families (Thassarian - in may ways Koltiria's Alliance counterpart), and some, simply for lack of any other war to fight.

Aildrik · 01/22/09, 9:29 AM

Originally Posted by Thairne

Why can´t it just simply both at once?
The world isn´t always black or white. DK´s are pretty "grey" so to say.
I, for one, could very well imagine a character getting used for some mad scheme against his will, and, after the situation resolves, wanting to extract vengeance on the one causing this misery some call life. Wanting to redeem yourself isn´t far fetched either, especially when you aided what you fought (and lost your life against) earlier.
You´re free. You commited horrible acts against your own people, void of will. You feel bad about what you did, and god damn, that bastard WILL have to pay for not only taking your life, but taking away your past and all that was once important to you.

I think this is basically what Blizzard had in mind. The backstory has you starting as essentially a brainwashed minion of the Lich King but with some lingering semblance of humanity. Then you get hung out to dry at the battle of light's hope. I think of it almost like a case of 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend' when thinking of their joining forces with the alliance/horde.

This is further supported by some of the quests you end up doing in Icecrown, for example, where you are killing Scarlet Onslaught and resurrecting them as ghouls; definitely not something very tasteful. I would categorize them not completely evil, rather, just not caring much about how they go about getting the job done.