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01/22/09, 10:16 AM
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#1561
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Don Flamenco
Human Death Knight
Archimonde
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Originally Posted by Enova
I disagree with the your statement on how evil death knights are. While they still retain some of their thoughts and self awareness - unlike much of the Scourge - they are still held on a tight leash by the Lich King's mind link. They aren't inherently evil, as you might think.
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It depends on what sort of evil you are talking about. People originally thought of the WoW death knights being chaotic evil. I think lawful evil is a much better description of them. They have done - and will continue to do - some pretty horrendous things that show that they really aren't thinking like everyone else. Free or not, brutal and unholy stuff just does not bother them. That said, of all the factions in WoW, the Ebon Blade is probably the one you most want to have your back in a fight when things really go south.
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01/22/09, 10:34 AM
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#1562
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Don Flamenco
Tauren Warrior
Haomarush (EU)
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I completely agree with Talgog. After all, being "good" is not equal to being "nice". Their (The Ebon Blade) might be more "the end justifies the means" oriented than various other factions are, especially in their use of the unholy, but that does not necessarily mean they are evil.
Personally I'd rather have a "good" and not "nice" faction, than an evil and charismatic one.
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01/22/09, 10:38 AM
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#1563
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Don Flamenco
Night Elf Druid
Earthen Ring
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Originally Posted by Talgog
It depends on what sort of evil you are talking about. People originally thought of the WoW death knights being chaotic evil. I think lawful evil is a much better description of them. They have done - and will continue to do - some pretty horrendous things that show that they really aren't thinking like everyone else. Free or not, brutal and unholy stuff just does not bother them. That said, of all the factions in WoW, the Ebon Blade is probably the one you most want to have your back in a fight when things really go south.
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I don't think "death knights" are as unified in outlook as you present here. I think some have regained, or tried to regain, their "humanity" to a greater or lesser extent than others.
Now, that said, I think the ones who are active in the command structure of the Knights of the Ebon Blade fit your description. I think the ones that have turned further away from evil than that have found places in other organizations, been assimilated back into their parent culture, et cetera. To summarize, I do think you're right about the Knights of the Ebon Blade, but I do not think you're right about each individual Death Knight.
Which is perfect, IMO. People have the opportunity to RP a DK that loves puppies and flowers, and they have an opportunity to RP a DK that loves puppies and flowers... baked at 250° for 45 minutes. But in general the bulk of them won't be completely trusted, because of the example set by the most visible of them.
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01/22/09, 11:22 AM
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#1564
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Great Tiger
Night Elf Hunter
Moonglade (EU)
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Originally Posted by Talgog
It depends on what sort of evil you are talking about. People originally thought of the WoW death knights being chaotic evil. I think lawful evil is a much better description of them. They have done - and will continue to do - some pretty horrendous things that show that they really aren't thinking like everyone else. Free or not, brutal and unholy stuff just does not bother them. That said, of all the factions in WoW, the Ebon Blade is probably the one you most want to have your back in a fight when things really go south.
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I was hoping to avoid having to filter their motivations through the D&D alignment grid, but I still stand by the statement that some might have actually took a bit too much pleasure in what they were doing for the Scourge. But keep in mind, the Scourge didn't recruit like modern day businesses, with a specific personality profile in mind. The only conditions to become a death knight were to be dead, and to be resilient enough to make it through the training. Personally, i rather like the fact that they leave your background and your motivations in the dark and just put you in the front lines. To be honest, in a way it makes sense... you've been dead and forced to do stuff... that kinda does things to your mind, and it's not likely to make you remember the past with a light heart. However, when things go bad, as you said, the Ebon Blade guys don't do things by the books, simply because, by now, they've probably bent or broken the rules so many times they forgot there were ever rules in the first place.
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Originally Posted by XI-
In summary, TBC raiding is easy. 9/10 encounters can be summarized with 1 phrase. Stay out of the fucking fire. If this is too difficult BWL was still there last I checked, so go have at it for some practice.
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Originally Posted by Kaubel
You people are idiots
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Guilty as charged ^
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01/22/09, 12:37 PM
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#1565
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Piston Honda
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Originally Posted by Enova
I was hoping to avoid having to filter their motivations through the D&D alignment grid, but I still stand by the statement that some might have actually took a bit too much pleasure in what they were doing for the Scourge. But keep in mind, the Scourge didn't recruit like modern day businesses, with a specific personality profile in mind. The only conditions to become a death knight were to be dead, and to be resilient enough to make it through the training. Personally, i rather like the fact that they leave your background and your motivations in the dark and just put you in the front lines. To be honest, in a way it makes sense... you've been dead and forced to do stuff... that kinda does things to your mind, and it's not likely to make you remember the past with a light heart. However, when things go bad, as you said, the Ebon Blade guys don't do things by the books, simply because, by now, they've probably bent or broken the rules so many times they forgot there were ever rules in the first place.
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You could also say that the guys at the Ebon Blade also have better understanding of the Scourge than anyone else could ever hope to. These guys get how relentless and merciless Arthas and his minions can get, and they not only have had their lines blurred, but they've realized that you cannot defeat the Scourge without "stooping down" to their level and matching their ruthlessness.
A lot of questlines tell us how "for every zombie you slay, 2 rise in its place" and other things pertaining to the uniqueness of the Scourge army -- the Ebon Blade understands that you need to be brutal and relentness to the Scourge in return, or else it's all for nothing... as in, you simply set the Scourge back, but you cause no lasting harm, and eventually you lose the battle by attrition.
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01/22/09, 1:41 PM
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#1566
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Don Flamenco
Tauren Warrior
Haomarush (EU)
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I guess that is why the Ebon Blade quests in Ice Crown has us either destroying infrastructure or assassinating leaders. Killing footsoldiers is what the Argent Crusade etcetera is ordering us to do.
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01/22/09, 2:20 PM
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#1567
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Don Flamenco
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Originally Posted by 4LV
I guess that is why the Ebon Blade quests in Ice Crown has us either destroying infrastructure or assassinating leaders. Killing footsoldiers is what the Argent Crusade etcetera is ordering us to do.
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This is what has really set the Ebon Blade apart as a faction, in my eyes. The Argent Crusade (and the Argent Dawn before them, and the Alliance itself to an extent) seems to approach the Scourge problem from a "see undead -> destroy undead -> advance" strategy. There's rarely much more of a tactic than that, with occasional emphasis on trying to prevent proliferation where possible, by destroying remains so it can't be raised, etc. The Ebon Blade's approach isn't designed to just kill any undead they see. Their goal is not to inconvenience Arthas to death, it's to really get him where it hurts, and their knowledge of the inner workings of Arthas's command structure and tactics gives them a special position from which to do so. Even the Cathedral of Darkness event that Tirion spearheads was brought to his attention by a member of the Ebon Blade (though technically Koltira Deathweaver and presumably her alliance counterpart are now members of the Horde/Alliance, they still have the Ebon Blade background).
I don't know that we'll get any real information as to how well the Ebon Blade "plays with others" until after the WotLK expansion cycle. For better or for worse, they've forged a place for themselves in the political structure of Azeroth for good, and for now, we share a common enemy. When "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" no longer applies after the Lich King has been dealt with, who's to say whether the Alliance and Horde will still put up with them.
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Stand back! I'm going to try SCIENCE!
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01/23/09, 2:04 AM
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#1568
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Piston Honda
Blood Elf Death Knight
Moon Guard
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The way I see it is Blizzard is being deliberately vague about a lot of DK stuff, in order to leave it up to the player. For instance, they offer both "undead" skins and live skins for DKs.
As well, some things, such as the opening cinematic for DKs, leans toward Death Knights as being raised undead minions. But to my knowledge, no where is it outright stated that all DKs are dead. As an ex-ret pally, I prefer to see my DK as the same guy as my pally, imagining my paladin to have gone to Northrend, become disillusioned, felt that the battle against Arthas was unwinnable, gave up, and swore loyalty to the Lich King, willingly. Perhaps the Lich King weakened his will, but nonetheless, he joined willingly. Currently server the Horde because it was a choice between that or the Ashbringer.
Others can swear off all scourgey stuff as being a mindless undead minion, and focus on redemption or whatever else. In general, I like how vague blizzard has been on some specifics.
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"As surely as I live forever, when I sharpen my flashing sword and my hand grasps it in judgement, I will take vengeance on my adversaries and repay those who hate me."
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01/23/09, 2:07 AM
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#1569
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Bald Bull
Night Elf Warrior
Sargeras
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World of Warcraft #15 came out
WorldofWarcraft.com from the last page here the Forsaken sorceress exits Thunder Bluff and prepares to head to Brightwood Grove, where the young Orc is apparently located.
The scene shifts back to Dustwallow Marsh where Varian and company are heading back towards Theramore, along the way they pass an Orcish family, which sparks a discussion among his small party about opening up peace talks with the Orcs. Varian offers Valeera a home in Stormwind, as well as Broll, and he reluctantly agrees to meet with Thrall.
The scene shifts to Brightwood Grove where the young Orc Med'an(Garona's son) is chopping lumber and complaining to his mentor Meryl(A male Mage who once served on the council of Tirisfal) that he's hungry, suddenly they're ambushed by the Horde(Unclear if these guys have any relation to the Undead Mage in Thunderbluff from earlier). A battle breaks out, and it becomes quite obvious that Med'an lacks battle experience and is knocked out, when the boy loses consciousness Garona leaps from the trees and proceeds to slaughter the small Horde group, while ordering Meryl to take Med'an and flee. Demonic runes appear around Garona in the middle of the fight, and Med'an regains consciousness, he hears the sound of Ere'dun(The language of the legion) and tries to head back to aid Garona, but she's already gone with no trace but the slaughtered band of Horde. The boy is unaware that he just encountered his mother.
Back in Theramore, Varian arrives with his party and Jaina uses an amulet to contact Thrall to inform her that she would like to meet(Apparently this is how they go about meeting each other as explained in the novel "Old Hatreds", Thrall has a matching amulet).
In Orgrimmar, Garrosh Hellscream and Rehgar Earthfury(who has apparently become an adviser to Thrall) are screaming at each other about forming a lasting peace with the Humans. Garrosh sees the Alliance as the enemy, Rehgar feels that the Humans and Orcs share the same enemy. In the middle of the argument Thrall's amulet glows(a signal Jaina is calling for him) and he tells them that the discussion will have to wait another day. In whispers the Orcs seem to mock Thrall and take note of how he seems to leap at the chance to meet the Human female like a trained hawk to it's master. They whisper that his alliance with the human female has made him soft and weak, and that he has no heir, one protests at this that Thrall has led the Horde to victory, while another insinuates that the Horde needs new blood, and that Garrosh knows how things should be.
Jaina and Thrall meet(With that whole "more then friends" air about them) and Jaina informs Thrall of what happened in WoW #1-14 :P. He also reluctantly agrees to meet the King of Stormwind, but only because Jaina asks him too. He has a bad feeling about it, and hopes that he is not making a mistake(THE END).
That Garrosh Hellscream character is trouble I tell you. He's going to end up running the Horde eventually if what we've seen in WotLK and now the comic is any indication.
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What is the most important thing to you? Won't you grant me the pleasure of taking it away.
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01/23/09, 2:57 AM
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#1570
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Honorary Toastr
Night Elf Priest
Dragonblight
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So, just so I am clear. Garona is presumed alive in Kalimdor? Her son is a teenager and absolutely alive in Kalimdor? Is Meryl a human?
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Originally Posted by arison
Everyone should start from the same place and rise based on their abilities, desires, and schedule. No one plays MMOs to *be* powerful, they play MMOs to *become* powerful. It's the journey, stupid. The rarer loot is, the more cherished it is when you get it, but only so long as there is a reasonable expectation to get it. The rarer loot is, the better it feels when you kill a boss or when $AWESOME_TRINKET drops.
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01/23/09, 6:25 AM
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#1571
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Von Kaiser
Tauren Warrior
Nathrezim (EU)
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In the comic it states Meryl is an undead mage, formerly human. But not one of the Scourge type undead, but one kept alive by sheer will and power. Never heard of Meryl in any lore context before (though I ignored the comics so far), is there some more info floating about?
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01/23/09, 6:43 AM
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#1572
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Von Kaiser
Orc Warrior
Argent Dawn (EU)
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Originally Posted by Emeraude
That Garrosh Hellscream character is trouble I tell you. He's going to end up running the Horde eventually if what we've seen in WotLK and now the comic is any indication.
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What time is the comic set? Is it set *currently*, i.e. during the invasion of Northrend, or at some other time?
With regards to the increasingly annoying Hellscream, I think that he is merely being set up for a big fall instead (perhaps like Wyrnn?). Thrall seems to be such an iconic character (like Jaina or Magni) that he appears pretty much untouchable from a lore perspective. Yes, he can be bloodied and bruised, but bumped off? Doubtful.
Yes, I know the same argument would probably have been made before the Wrathgate about Bolvar, but it is clear from what draconic-speakers have gleaned from the cinematic that Bolvar isn't quite finished yet,
Hellscream on the other hand, is the Horde's expendible angstbucket, fated to meet a grisly fate hopefully at the hand of Saurfang.
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01/23/09, 6:54 AM
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#1573
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Von Kaiser
Tauren Warrior
Nathrezim (EU)
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If Saurfang would teach Garrosh a lesson in "New Hordism" I could die happily just thereafter. But I can´t see it happening... While questing through the various Hordezones you find more and more commanders that are of the Hellscream type. Starting in Warsong Hold itself with Garrosh, Agmar in Dragonblight, the sister at first in control in Grizzly Hills (which untypically gets replaced by her more moderate sister) and the Commander of the Doomhammer... Everyone of them is an angry, alliance hating, ruthless Tyrant (in Agmar´s Hammer you´re even blackmailed by the commander after doing some quests for that prick) which could easily support Garrosh over Thrall.
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01/23/09, 9:07 AM
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#1574
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Piston Honda
Human Warrior
Hellscream (EU)
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I agree that Garrosh is being set up for a fall, but I think it will be of truly monumental proportions -- in other words, the sort of fall that's fatal and allows other characters to pull the "If only they'd listened to me, they'd be alive right now..." angle.
Methinks there'll be a scene where Garrosh and Saurfang (Possibly alongside the player's raid) take on Saurfang the Younger (Possibly "Bolvaurfang") in Icecrown Citadel, only for Garrosh to get himself killed stupidly and Varok to step up to the plate and take on his fallen son. For added wangst, Garrosh could stay alive long enough to see for himself what Saurfang has that he doesn't.
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01/23/09, 9:40 AM
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#1575
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Don Flamenco
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Due to the points that Thairne brings up, Hellscream's fall is going to have to be very public and very embarrassing. There are too many other leaders who would make a martyr of him if he's just knocked off by Thrall or Saurfang, risking open rebellion. He has to do something brash and stupid that's obviously wrong, and will shame the other leaders into realizing they were a little too bloodthirsty in their methods.
Of course, I doubt Wrynn would take the hint, and as long as he's still being a dick, it's unlikely many Horde will be willing to leave the Alliance in peace and just play defense.
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Stand back! I'm going to try SCIENCE!
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