World of Warcraft - Lore & Storyline discussion [SPOILERS] - Page 106

Monocle · 01/23/09, 9:43 AM

Originally Posted by Thairne

In the comic it states Meryl is an undead mage, formerly human. But not one of the Scourge type undead, but one kept alive by sheer will and power. Never heard of Meryl in any lore context before (though I ignored the comics so far), is there some more info floating about?

Meryl is a character who has existed for about two years but we have not learned anything about him until now. He was the Warlock "Action" Figure and was in the first wave of releases. That release looks very different then how he appeared in the comic, as the figure is wearing Tier 5.

Considering his background though, he is a bit odd as Warlocks go. Being a former member of the Council of Tristfal, He may very well be of the "fight fire with fire" type, and has lasted a very long time without becoming a pawn of the Legion. We need to learn a bit more about him to see what's going on. It's possible that Aegwynn knows him too, so hopefully they will meet up in the comic.

Aildrik · 01/23/09, 10:24 AM

Sorry for the slight change of subject here, but I really love the Titan lore in this game and was curious what people thought about the encounters with Freya's avatar in Sholazar and how it reveal how future contact with the Titans themselves may play out.

A few things I took away from the NPC's dialog was that the Titans value life and care for their creations. Freya also talked about being loath to unleash the Etymidian except as a last report. This indicates to me that the Titans are not necessarily overly destructive, and why would they be if they spend their time going around creating life?

Not to say I am completely dismissing them being upset with the state of things in Azeroth, but I really think Blizzard would be better off keeping Titans as more of an aloof benevolent force that wants to help out indirectly versus just making them the latest bad guys in a future expansion.

Kazanir · 01/23/09, 10:30 AM

Remember that Freya is not actually one of the Titans, but rather one of the temple Watchers entrusted to guard Azeroth and the Titan's creations in Sholazar and the Storm Peaks (and presumably Icecrown before it was overrun.)

From an earlier post:

Tyr from the Temple of Order
Mimir from the Temple of Invention
Hodir from the Temple of Winter
Freya from the Temple of Life
Thorim from the Temple of Storms
Loken from the Temple of Wisdom

Douglas · 01/23/09, 10:38 AM

Originally Posted by Aildrik

Freya also talked about being loath to unleash the Etymidian except as a last report.

The way it came across to me was that she was loathe to use the player to unleash the Etymidian -- she didn't want to put that power into the hands of one of the mortal races.

And who can blame her? If mortals gained too much power, and the titans considered us to be abusing it, we may find that the Titans are eventuallly Malygos 2.0.

Aildrik · 01/23/09, 10:42 AM

Correct, and it might be me drawing too many assumptions, but I thought the general attitude and mannerisms of Freya's avatar might shed some light on the attitude and mannerisms of her creators.

Do we know what happened to the actual Watcher Freya? The references get a bit confusing; when I first read the quests I read it as a Titan named Freya had created the avatar and left it there in her place when the Titans departed Azeroth.

Originally Posted by Douglas

The way it came across to me was that she was loathe to use the player to unleash the Etymidian -- she didn't want to put that power into the hands of one of the mortal races.

And who can blame her? If mortals gained too much power, and the titans considered us to be abusing it, we may find that the Titans are eventuallly Malygos 2.0.

The actual text (pulled from Wowwiki):

"It is time, <name>. The Etymidian is one of the most destructive forces ever created by the titans and I am loathe to unleash him in my lands.
There is little choice, however. Our enemies have forced my hand and the fury of the titans will cleanse all."

So yeah, that could definitely be interpreted a few different ways. Who knows, maybe the thing employs some Goblin technology and she is afraid it might go critical and blow the entire zone

My fear is that Blizzard will turn the Burning Legion and the Titans into a mirror of the Vorlons and Shadows from Babylon 5.

Rannasha · 01/23/09, 11:04 AM

Originally Posted by Aildrik

My fear is that Blizzard will turn the Burning Legion and the Titans into a mirror of the Vorlons and Shadows from Babylon 5.

That'd be Old Gods and not the B.L., i suppose? But i've been thinking the same about the Titans pulling a Vorlon on Azeroth when they revisit, it'd immediately give the players plenty of powerful bosses to fight.

For those unfamiliar with Babylon 5, the Vorlons and Shadows are both races more powerful than the standard mortal races, originally representing good and evil, with the mortal races (most of them at least) aligning themselves with the Vorlons in the war. At some point, however, the Vorlons decide that any world that has been in contact with the Shadows is contaminated and must be purged and go on a quest of galatic extermination, obviously to be stopped by the mortal races.

The parallels with Warcraft-lore are not hard to find, initially the inhabitants of Azeroth struggle against the Old Gods (and their followers) seeing them as evil and the Titans as good. Meanwhile, the Titans might be on other worlds fighting the Old Gods (as per Harbringer Skyriss, the Old Gods are not an Azeroth-only problem) and when they receive the Loken-death beacon, the Titans may decide that the Old Gods can't be contained as they had previously thought and decide to exterminate anything that has been corrupted by them, including Azeroth and its inhabitants.

♦ Goatbert · 01/23/09, 11:11 AM

Originally Posted by Aildrik

My fear is that Blizzard will turn the Burning Legion and the Titans into a mirror of the Vorlons and Shadows from Babylon 5.

This has essentially already happened - whether intentional or not, this is just another of many stories of Order vs. Chaos. I don't care if it is a similar story so long as it is an interesting and compelling one.

Also, Sinclair is Einhorn.

Pater · 01/23/09, 12:00 PM

I've found the "curse of the flesh" idea fascinating. It's odd to call it a curse when the effect is that mechanical/inorganic creations become living things with free will and emotions--that's usually a good thing. E.g., Eden, Pygmalion, Pinocchio. When I first heard the term in the game I took it ironically--that the speaker (the clockwork dude in BT, I think?) had it backwards: the Titans are so powerful that their creations naturally take on life of their own to become more like their creator.

But the wowwiki entry says the Titans oppose the "curse of the flesh," which makes me wonder (as Rannasha is suggests in another context) whether the Old Gods (or whoever actually created the "curse of the flesh") are actually on "our" side against the Titans. Cf. Prometheus, Satan in Paradise Lost. This is hard to square with the malevolent evil we saw from C'Thun and the other Old Gods, though, right? Perhaps a third party is the creator of the curse of the flesh.

Enova · 01/23/09, 12:12 PM

Originally Posted by Rannasha

That'd be Old Gods and not the B.L., i suppose? But i've been thinking the same about the Titans pulling a Vorlon on Azeroth when they revisit, it'd immediately give the players plenty of powerful bosses to fight.

Not necessarily... as far as we know, the Legion is another thorn in the Titans' side. So, considering they're facing the Old Gods AND the Legion on who knows how many worlds, they're pretty much in the same mess we're in, but they can't really convert their opponents, while both their enemies can convert, at least the mortal races, if not the Titans themselves. So it's quite possible that they've at least contemplated destroying Azeroth rather than let another world fall to their enemies. Hence the fail safe devices.

Typhon · 01/23/09, 1:29 PM

Originally Posted by Goatbert

Also, Sinclair is Einhorn.

From the quality of the acting of the actor playing him, Sinclair was the third tree along from the left in Elywnn Forest.

Having said that, I have a hard time envisaging that much Titan lore being introduced into the game in one fell swoop, i.e. a titan-based Expansion, as there's comparatively (relatively speaking) little pre-existing lore that exists in the game that bites you in the face and says "Hi, we're the titans!"

They (the titans) have always been a bit of a backstory, of events that happened in the distant past, whereas the Legion and the Scourge (the foci of the first and second main WoW expansions respectively) had a much more immediate effect and were an integral part of, upon the game world.

♦ Goatbert · 01/23/09, 2:11 PM

Originally Posted by Typhon

From the quality of the acting of the actor playing him, Sinclair was the third tree along from the left in Elywnn Forest.

Having said that, I have a hard time envisaging that much Titan lore being introduced into the game in one fell swoop, i.e. a titan-based Expansion, as there's comparatively (relatively speaking) little pre-existing lore that exists in the game that bites you in the face and says "Hi, we're the titans!"

They (the titans) have always been a bit of a backstory, of events that happened in the distant past, whereas the Legion and the Scourge (the foci of the first and second main WoW expansions respectively) had a much more immediate effect and were an integral part of, upon the game world.

I feel like that was true up until now, but with Storm Peaks and the upcoming Ulduar Lore, doesn't it feel like that is all changing? (Damnit, I want to make a "being fleshed out" joke now)

Tyrian · 01/23/09, 3:28 PM

Titans value life and care for their creations

Would you consider the fleshy mortal races your creations? I think this is the issue that will be further explored some point down the track. The titans might value life and their (pure) creations, but are they compassionate to those that have been tainted by the evil corruption of Old Gods, like us? Thats going to be an interesting dilemma to explore in future content.

Erfinda · 01/23/09, 3:52 PM

Originally Posted by Pater

I've found the "curse of the flesh" idea fascinating. It's odd to call it a curse when the effect is that mechanical/inorganic creations become living things with free will and emotions--that's usually a good thing. E.g., Eden, Pygmalion, Pinocchio. When I first heard the term in the game I took it ironically--that the speaker (the clockwork dude in BT, I think?) had it backwards: the Titans are so powerful that their creations naturally take on life of their own to become more like their creator.

But the wowwiki entry says the Titans oppose the "curse of the flesh," which makes me wonder (as Rannasha is suggests in another context) whether the Old Gods (or whoever actually created the "curse of the flesh") are actually on "our" side against the Titans. Cf. Prometheus, Satan in Paradise Lost. This is hard to square with the malevolent evil we saw from C'Thun and the other Old Gods, though, right? Perhaps a third party is the creator of the curse of the flesh.

Free will and emotions are a good thing to the people who gain it; why should it necessarily be good to your masters?

I think it's important to distinguish between being on "our side" because they support our cause and them supporting us because supporting us allows them to fulfill their agenda. Given the experiences with C'Thun and Yogg-Saron, it's more like that the latter is the state of the world.

Emeraude · 01/23/09, 4:29 PM

Originally Posted by Typhon

What time is the comic set? Is it set *currently*, i.e. during the invasion of Northrend, or at some other time?

Before the Northrend expedition. Varian was just restored to whole in issue #14, and #15 picks up immediately after that.

I think you all overestimate how infallible Thrall is. If he were to fall in love with a certain female human for instance and that became public it could easily lead to his downfall.

Garrosh has been tailor made it seems to stage some sort of coup. Remember Metzen teased us about this at Blizzcon a couple of years ago. >_<

nfw · 01/23/09, 4:33 PM

I just noticed that one of the enchants from the shard vendor is Enchant Weapon, Giant Slayer. This enchant would only make sense if there are lots of giants to fight in Uldar, which I assume is what Titans classify as.