Well, you are pretty much ignoring the whole Burning Legion and anything related to them. The Orcs who waged the wars in Warcraft I+II were under control by the Burning Legion. In Warcraft III the Orcs get rid of that influence, and battle the Legion at Hyjal - together with the Humans and Nightelfs. The battle demanded huge sacrifices from all the involved factions, but they acted as allies there. Only the cooperation of the Alliance and the Horde was able to defeat the Legion.

Fast forward to the wrathgate and you have a Burning Legion member (Varimathras) planting mistrust and hatred between the two factions - or rather getting Varian to ruin any cooperation. While we stopped the summoning in the battle for the Undercity, i think the whole incident was a success for the Burning Legion.

Past events have shown that it takes a joined effort to defeat a greater evil (Hyjal, Sunwell etc.), and it takes someone very shortsighted (hint: Varian) to forget about that. You don't call someone who basically saved your world at Hyjal "trash" or "a green-skinned aberration" - that's bad diplomacy.

I'd chalk up the lack of secrecy to a difference of culture - most any regular human in the kingdom would be horrified to see a Warlock summon up a Felhound in the middle of Stormwind, but if you're already Undead and suffered all that that entails, would you really be fazed when you see an Apothecary distilling some ghoul guts on your daily commute?

As far as Sylvanas' "ignorance" is concerned, she probably knew exactly what Putress was doing up to and until the actual use of the plague itself. Yes, you can't hide the development of a superweapon like that, and we have no reason to believe they even tried to hide it. The only secret that needed to be kept was the target, means and time of delivery.

Some places work best if there is not much of surveillance. Several western OECD countries have been embarassed when big companies under htier jurisdictions have been found to supply the vital machinery and technology to equip Libya with chemical weaponry - and received even export funding for doing so. It is always a horrible stretch to compare real world events to ingame events, but I just use this to illustrate the mechanism. Walk through Undercity - you can feel the despair and the hatred of the inhabitants, but it does not feel like a city where everything is under control. I agree that Sylvanas should have known that there was something under development, and that it could be used to give "death to all living", but not in these particular circumstances. And she probably was not willing to confront a potential ally over a suspicion.

As multiple people replied on the situation of the Apothecary district, I can only say that with the limited ways to convey a situation we can only speculate. What I can say is that the "New Plague" was officially developed as a Cure to the Plague. Let me see if I can find some quest evidence to it.


Internment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I might've used the word Internment Camp, I wasn't hinting at extermination camps in WWII. What I did hint towards were multiple examples of "concentrating a group of people who are in some way undesirable in one place, where they can be watched by those who incarcerated them". I don't want to make direct parallels with the real world to prevent just this. There are multiple examples of these sort of camps in history, just check the link, but I wanted it to be an abstract reference.

What bothers me, is "the group who wanted to kill or enslave every other race and pave roads with their skeletons". While this is partially true, it was a subgroup of demonically tainted orcs who did this. It is understandable to condemn every orc, but it is very much racist. I can't find concrete evidence, video game history is hard to quote when all I have is wowwiki, but I'm pretty sure that there are quite a few remarks about the 'greenskins'. I might have to check the novel "Cycle of Hatred" for it.

And while I agree with you that it might seem that it were mostly soldiers that were captured, this is not entirely true. Just look at Thrall, he was a baby when he was put in the internment camps. Talking about the internment camps, a snippet from when Thrall was fighting as a gladiator.

"Many others had bet on Thrall and lost money, and Blackmoore had invited them all to join in the punishment. Man after man entered the cell and vented his anger on the helpless orc before he finally, mercifully, lost consciousness. "

This is not an isolated incident. He was a 'pet orc'. And he was treated worse then a dog. There is no 'humanity'in that.

This is the crux of the discussion. Varian Wrynn doesn't get nuances. You defend his viewpoints, so you might sound like you miss some shades of grey too. It's not about pointing out facts in the lore where you are wrong, but I do interpret the happenings in a different way.

"King Varian Wrynn says: I've waited a long time for this, Thrall. For every time I was thrown into one of your damned arenas... for every time I killed a green-skinned aberration like you... I could only think of one thing."

Thrall has a history of working with humans. Look at Jaina. What happened to Thrall was also ten times worse as what happened to Wrynn (excluding the dual personalities, but that was due to a Black Dragon). Thrall SHOULD hate Wrynn more then Wrynn hates Thrall.

My 2 cents on the "evil Sylvanas" thing: I think they lifted Wrathgate straight from "Dr. Strangelove". That is, a high-ranking officer going mad/rogue, with access to a weapon that was created mostly for deterrence/strategic purposes, does something stupid and his commander is unable to stop him. To me, the connection between this new plague that kills absolutely anything and a nuclear weapon is obvious - and it puts a nice new spin in the tiresome "omg Sylvanas has a plague like that she must be evil amirite?" discussion that has been going on here, since I don't think the people advocating that view would say that any country possessing nuclear weapons has to be "evil".

Putress' speech also makes it quite obvious. "Did you think we had forgotten? Did you think we had forgiven?" clearly applies both to Arthas and to the Alliance, whose first reaction when coming into contact with the Forsaken was "they're like the Scourge, but smarter, therefore even more dangerous" (a line like that appears in one of the novels, but now I forget which). And there is nothing in his speech and/or in Sylvanas' reaction that indicates she condones what Putress did - although I agree that there's a lot of space for a novel to fill in the blanks.

Those who affirm that Sylvanas is dumb/incompetent because she didn't know/couldn't stop Putress are also grossly overestimating the degree of surveillance any leader can have over a large organization. History (and sociological analyses) are full of examples of how flimsy this usually is.

I think the problem that a lot of people have with Sylvannas and the RAS has to do with their methods. Even members of the Alliance could appreciate the potential of a weapon that can harm the Scourge and even the Lich King himself, but I doubt they'd be happy about the manner in which it was created. People weren't brutally tortured and murdered during the creation of the first nukes like they were for the RAS's plague. And if we can agree that their methods were unacceptable, then Sylvannas is either evil for allowing it to happen or incompetant for not realizing what was going on in their labs. I don't think anyone has blamed her for the actual betrayal other than her willingness to put Varimathras in a position of power.

Most likely the first option or the combination of it with another. When dreadlords die, they are 'sent back' into the Nether again, assuming a corporeal form might take some time.

I'm in agreement with Faldrath. You can't condemn a leader for approving her followers in developing a weapon intended for the protection of her people and the destruction of their enemies, the Scourge. I really don't understand the argument that because Sylvanas knew the plague was being developed, she's evil. Certainly no more than I think goblin engineers are inherently evil because they specialize in rockets and explosives. Sylvanas absolutely knew the plague was being developed. Whether she knew the details of how it was being tested is unclear--while many tests have been on captured enemy combatants, there certainly are examples of using it on random farmers. Again, without a novel based around her, that level of detail isn't really knowable.

Sure, she doesn't have a warm, fuzzy, teddy bear heart like Thrall sometimes exhibits, but under her command, the Forsaken have progressed from a cold, ruthless race who joined the Horde out of self-interest into a nearly fully integrated part of the Horde with common goals and challenges. Maybe not as much as the Tauren, but the Forsaken are newer and have a much less pleasant history to overcome. They've already come a long way as a people with her leadership.

Also, don't forget timelines here--with WoW being semi-linear, all those quests where you're testing the plague on random citizens of Lordaeron happened years (60 levels!) ago when the Forsaken were still pretty new at this. Sure, they're still testing and developing, but the testing is almost exclusively on enemy combatants now as far as I recall from early Northrend quests (e.g., bombing the ships off the coast of HF).

Uh, you know that's Alliance ships you're testing it on, right? You know, the people you're nominally allying with to combat the threat of Arthas? The ones where there's supposed to be a ceasefire? Like I said: Forsaken = no morals. Scourge with a different guild flag.

All they need is a portal and they can equivalent graveyard zerg a world? Ouch.

Have you been to Icecrown? There's hardly a ceasefire between the Alliance and Horde. Blizzard has intentionally stepped up rivalry and combat between the factions in this expansion, right up to the base of Icecrown Citadel, where you say we're supposed to be uniting against a common enemy. The only place there's a ceasefire is in Dalaran and other neutral towns; otherwise, it's fair game for the two factions to be at each others' throats.

Get out of this thread since you clearly have no idea what he was talking about. There was, in fact, a nominal "working together" arrangement that led up to the events at Angrathar. All the zones after Dragonblight in level progression assume that you've seen those events, and tensions have flared up into open conflict, especially notable in Icecrown.

I wouldn't claim the Alliance were any more innocent than the Horde in upholding their cease-fire pre-Wrathgate. It Was The Orcs, Honest! and Mission: Plague This! clearly show that Horde were not the only ones causing trouble, albeit Alliance seem to use slightly more covert means of attack.

Nominal, yes. Practical, no. Even after Wrath Gate, there's no official open war, but that doesn't stop ground commanders from jabbing each other. The events at Wrath Gate escalated the conflict, they didn't start it, as the poster above me mentions with specific Alliance quests. The Forsaken and Alliance are outright bombing each other in HF, and plenty of other more subtle conflicts are going on elsewhere. So yes, there was a nominal "working together" arrangement, but neither side was completely following it before those events.

[Edit for further clarification] The conflict in Howling Fjord between the Forsaken and the Alliance goes beyond a couple bombings. I can't find any reference in the quest text along the various chains in the area to figure out who attacked who first at Vengeance Landing, but there's a pretty obvious pitched battle going on down there. The plague testing I mentioned earlier (which is what sparked this debate) was on ships that are coming to reinforce the Alliance troops that are already in open battle. Those troops were coming with the expressed intent to attack the Forsaken outpost. I don't think it really matters if it was a plague or explosives, the intent was to stop the reinforcements, and the quest does so. The fact that they got to test a new strain of plague was a nice bonus for the apothecaries there.

Quest references: Test at Sea - Quest - World of Warcraft ; War is Hell - Quest - World of Warcraft (War is Hell is the first quest of a chain where you eventually end up killing the officers of the Alliance ground force attacking Vengeance Landing.)

The lack of an open war is because it's not there yet. Blizzard stated that Angrathar was the Chapter I of the whole Northrend crusade. In the Undercity battle Varian Wrynn specifically says that he's out of bubble gum now. Things are going to get messy.

Regardless, comparing working together with the other faction to defeat Arthas with trying to piss off some hairy Magnataurs is dumb. The Forsaken are devoid of any moralities, but as far as their work goes, the human or Vrykul guinea pigs were just a means to an end: to annihilate the Scourge. Of course, Putress had some more ideas about that...

Why can't she be both?

My view of Sylvanas has always been that she's willing to do whatever it takes to ensure the survival of the Forsaken. She and the rest of the Forsaken know that they're commonly viewed as being no different from the Scourge, and the Stormwind would probably like nothing more than to roll over tirisfal glades and return it to its "rightful" human owners. She's surrounded on all sides, disliked and outright hated by pretty much everyone. Not to mention Arthas is still out there, and he'd like nothing more than to return his wayward creations to his fold.

So what does she do? She enters into an alliance with Thrall, because she knows they HAVE to have some allies, otherwise they're gonna get stomped. She goes and tell the RAS to research a plague that's devestating to life and unlife in case they're forced to use it (and yes, I believe she endorsed the plague - I just think Putress and Verimathris stole it and used it at the wrong point). She fights back HARD against any sort of incursion into her territory.

*sigh* I know it's a bad idea to use this anology, but i think it fits. The Forsaken are like Isreal surrounded by enemies. They survive by being utter hard asses and bringing guns to every knife fight they get involved in. Sylvanas can totally be non-evil, but she's utterly commited to keeping the Forsaken nation viable.

I completely agree with xmod. If anything Sylvanas would have an issue with the strategic impact of unleashing the plague now and not when assaulting ICC. It would have made more sense to let the other races battle their way into Icecrown, let them do the dying then unleash the ultimate weapon after they had weakened Arthas. Maybe Sylvanas is just playing Thrall and maneuvering to stay in the Horde despite Varimathras' efforts to muddle up her grand scheme.

In the Culling of Strathholme mission in WC3, you can kill Mal'Ganis as many times as you like during the fight, he always repops fairly soon. I think the reason he ported out instead of dying in the CoT was that since we only kill him once (for reasons of eliminating repetitive boss fights, most likely), he still needs to be able to speak his piece and tell Arthas to chase him to Northrend, which he can't do as a corpse.

Somehow I doubt it. Early in TBC we saw Sylvanas' (and the Forsaken in general) attitude soften from wanting to turn every living being into more Forsaken. Particularly via the Lament of the Highborne questline, but really the whole Ghostlands story arc.

What we didn't see was the general Forsaken attitude toward the Scourge softening.

I loved Putress' lines. Forsaken are angry, vengeful people. And they deserve to be. But calling for "Death to the living!" and plaguebombing their own allies is out of line with what the Forsaken have become since vanilla.

So I was thinking today.

Hasn't been brought up in the last few pages, though I am sure we all know it. I suppose it hasn't been mentioned because it does not directly tie to Varian, but it is perhaps the most fundamental reason as to why the Night-Elves hate the Horde. Coupled with the Horde destroying the forests of Ashenvale, the Night-Elves blame the Horde for the death of Cenarius.

You don't just forgive and forget about that. The Horde killed the son of the most revered and honored Night-Elf deity. And the teacher/master of the most revered mortal Night-Elves.

On another note, I think it is interesting Varian's best friend (well one of them) is a Blood Elf. Further, it's heavily hinted the Blood-Elf and Night-Elf are in-love. (e, well maybe fatherly love, still a powerful relationship).

On an equal note, Sylvanas' former lover was a human... from Stormwind.

I think your use of "evil" might be too broad. It's pretty evident that Sylvanas is very, very resentful toward the Alliance for pinning her Forsaken as enemies just for being undead. I doubt she'd have any qualms about conducting experiments on captured Alliance members. And with the amount of free access we have inside the Undercity, it doesn't seem like these experiments are being hidden from the other members of the Horde, either. Her personality doesn't really come across as one of silent betrayal. She's more the I'll-tell-you-how-much-I-hate-you-before-I-kill-you-and-while-I-kill-you-and-after-I-kill-you type, which is what caused her to lose her chance at killing Arthas back in Warcraft III. Blizzard has also been using the sentimental card rather liberally with her. The Blood Elves are probably a big anchor keeping her within the ranks of the Horde , and The Lady's Necklace was clearly meant to make the player sympathize with her.

I personally think that Sylvanas is very much on top of her brief, but overestimated her control over Varimathras and Putress. While her intention in creating the Royal Apothecary Society -- and consequently a new plague -- was most likely one bent on revenge toward those responsible for the state of her Forsaken, she probably became more amiable toward her Horde allies and decided to take the organization toward a different direction. An example of this can be seen in one of the Dragonblight quests involving Doctor Sintar Malefious, Grand Apothecary. Sent by the Forsaken, he works with a Tauren to create a vaccine to immunize wildlife in the area. Blizzard's reason for adding in the Hand of Vengeance faction could also to create a distinction between Sylvanas loyalists and vengeful defectors; it would be confusing to meet with quest givers such as Sintar Malefious tied to a faction that our friend Putress is a part of. My guess is that Putress was resentful of this new initiative and decided to work alongside a conniving Varimathras to enact his personal vision of what the RAS should do. Because of the different levels of hatred the members of the Forsaken likely have for the living, it's no surprise Putress would be able to find his own share of allies, and Varimathras his own share of pawns.

But it doesn't tell us much. In W3 all heroes come back when killed, after spending some time being resurrected at the altar. There hero death is only final in scripted events, not when it happens via normal battle.