World of Warcraft - Lore & Storyline discussion [SPOILERS] - Page 107

Pater · 01/23/09, 5:14 PM

Originally Posted by Erfinda

Free will and emotions are a good thing to the people who gain it; why should it necessarily be good to your masters?

I think it's important to distinguish between being on "our side" because they support our cause and them supporting us because supporting us allows them to fulfill their agenda. Given the experiences with C'Thun and Yogg-Saron, it's more like that the latter is the state of the world.

I guess I'm trying to figure out whether the "curse of the flesh" is something put into the Titans' creations by the Titans themselves, or if it's put there by outside party. I initially thought it was the Titans themselves because it fits so well with our mythologies of powerful beings creating things that come to life and become like their creator. I like this version--the Titans make machines to shape and tend the world, then the creatures naturally evolve into living beings that can enjoy the world they've shaped, and they eventually meet the Titans themselves.

But if it's not the Titans that did it, who was it? Is it just the Old Gods doing it for sadistic reasons? They want machines to come to life just so they can then cause pain and suffering in living beings? Or was it some other force that makes machines come alive?

Liebestod · 01/23/09, 5:15 PM

Originally Posted by Emeraude

Before the Northrend expedition. Varian was just restored to whole in issue #14, and #15 picks up immediately after that.

I think you all overestimate how infallible Thrall is. If he were to fall in love with a certain female human for instance and that became public it could easily lead to his downfall.

Garrosh has been tailor made it seems to stage some sort of coup. Remember Metzen teased us about this at Blizzcon a couple of years ago. >_<

Yep. Garrosh was largely added, I imagine, because players want the conflict between Horde and Alliance to be ingrained into the story, and Garrosh is the Horde's equivalent of Varian Wrynn. If you remove him, then you remove one of the major catalysts for a conflict that will probably extend beyond WotLK. I imagine that we'll see Horde and Alliance will put aside their differences to take out Arthas.. but that will likely be a temporary thing and it won't conclude the whole conflict storyline.

Or maybe it will. Maybe 3.3 will contain some story where Garrosh attempts a coup against Thrall or something.

songster · 01/23/09, 5:25 PM

Originally Posted by Pater

I guess I'm trying to figure out whether the "curse of the flesh" is something put into the Titans' creations by the Titans themselves, or if it's put there by outside party. I initially thought it was the Titans themselves because it fits so well with our mythologies of powerful beings creating things that come to life and become like their creator. I like this version--the Titans make machines to shape and tend the world, then the creatures naturally evolve into living beings that can enjoy the world they've shaped, and they eventually meet the Titans themselves.

But if it's not the Titans that did it, who was it? Is it just the Old Gods doing it for sadistic reasons? They want machines to come to life just so they can then cause pain and suffering in living beings? Or was it some other force that makes machines come alive?

You need to run Halls of Stone and actually read the lore. The Old Gods set the curse of flesh on the Titans' creations to make them squishier and easier to kill. The Titans then imprisoned the Old Gods and decided to observe the squishy things for a while as an experiment. At any point they might decide to end the experiment.

Corinthian · 01/23/09, 5:37 PM

Originally Posted by Liebestod

Yep. Garrosh was largely added, I imagine, because players want the conflict between Horde and Alliance to be ingrained into the story, and Garrosh is the Horde's equivalent of Varian Wrynn. If you remove him, then you remove one of the major catalysts for a conflict that will probably extend beyond WotLK. I imagine that we'll see Horde and Alliance will put aside their differences to take out Arthas.. but that will likely be a temporary thing and it won't conclude the whole conflict storyline.

Or maybe it will. Maybe 3.3 will contain some story where Garrosh attempts a coup against Thrall or something.

I think it's possible they're setting up Garrosh to follow in his father's footsteps. We do have Yogg-Saron handy to provide a corrupting source of power, and Garrosh seems blind enough to take advantage of any opportunity presented without regard for the consequences. This could set up a chain of events as follows: Garrosh and his followers are empowered by Yogg-Saron to take out Arthas (Icecrown raid) They become corrupted and enslaved as a result, and subsequent content involves their redemption. (Yogg-Saron raid)

Pater · 01/23/09, 5:38 PM

Gotcha, have not gotten to that point yet and didn't realize it was already answered in-game.

Starfire · 01/23/09, 6:12 PM

Clearly Voljin needs a bigger role in this... and who or what are Gnomes anyways?

Personally I think something got mixed up somewhere... I always assumed Wrynn would be more of the Alliance version of Sylvanas, but instead my opinion of Sylvanas has rather dropped. She seems more cowardly hiding behind Thrall and letting Varimathras... (okay, on second thought I guess that is somewhat analogous to Onyxia being in Stormwind for so long).

Magni and Cairne are the more moderate rational type. Both seem more content to stay at home.
Tyrande and Thrall are the more relaxed and calculating types both of whom are facing usurpers.
Velen and Lor'themar are trying to rebuild/re-establish their broken civilizations.
Voljin and Mekkatorque are the lol-who? / irrelevant ones

That kind of leaves Wrynn and Sylvanas to be the aggressive ones. And you can kind of see it. Correct me if I am wrong, but the Hand of Vengeance and Vengeance Landing in Northrend are both because of Sylvanas' offensive? Both Sylvanas and Wrynn want revenge against the Scourge too. Personally though, I think the most interesting thing is Wrynn isn't a Paladin and Sylvanas a Hunter.

(Oh and totally fanboying... Nathantos Blightcaller as a resurrected raid-boss in Icecrown? Sylvanas' former lover... Ranger Lord of the Alliance)

4LV · 01/23/09, 6:24 PM

Originally Posted by Corinthian

I think it's possible they're setting up Garrosh to follow in his father's footsteps. We do have Yogg-Saron handy to provide a corrupting source of power, and Garrosh seems blind enough to take advantage of any opportunity presented without regard for the consequences. This could set up a chain of events as follows: Garrosh and his followers are empowered by Yogg-Saron to take out Arthas (Icecrown raid) They become corrupted and enslaved as a result, and subsequent content involves their redemption. (Yogg-Saron raid)

This actually sounds quite interesting. It's an idea we should keep in mind for when the next (or next two) content patches are released, and recheck if any new clues, that could lead in this direction, is released. I must admit I hadn't thought of Garrosh that way (even if I mixed up Garrosh and Saurfang the younger) earlier. Because of the Wrath Gate event it just feels like Saurfang the younger has stolen much of the (up until now) show.

Anaxo · 01/23/09, 7:18 PM

Originally Posted by Emeraude

Garrosh has been tailor made it seems to stage some sort of coup. Remember Metzen teased us about this at Blizzcon a couple of years ago. >_<

Garrosh almost did perform a coup d'etat, if events had played out. The world event in patch 3.0.2 had Scourge forces attacking Orgrimmar and Stormwind Harbor. Garrosh and Thrall get into an argument about sending an attack force to Northrend, culminating in Garrosh challenging Thrall to a duel. If Thrall had lost the duel, it's possible internal civil war would have broken out.

Plankel · 01/23/09, 7:35 PM

Originally Posted by nfw

I just noticed that one of the enchants from the shard vendor is Enchant Weapon, Giant Slayer. This enchant would only make sense if there are lots of giants to fight in Uldar, which I assume is what Titans classify as.

Yeah, that thought crossed my mind. Avatar of Freya and Jotun are both classified as giants and I am sure we are gonna see at least one of their models as a boss in Ulduar. Thorim is humanoid though and Loken unclassified, so it remains the question if the 4 four watchers are gonna be giants if they are bosses in Ulduar.

Then again, it might as well stay useless forever. Remember the badge fire resist gear in TBC?

shed · 01/24/09, 4:43 AM

Originally Posted by Starfire

(Oh and totally fanboying... Nathantos Blightcaller as a resurrected raid-boss in Icecrown? Sylvanas' former lover... Ranger Lord of the Alliance)

Varian makes you kill him again instead of Bolvar now, doubt it.

Emeraude · 01/24/09, 6:21 AM

Originally Posted by Starfire

Clearly Voljin needs a bigger role in this... and who or what are Gnomes anyways?

Personally I think something got mixed up somewhere... I always assumed Wrynn would be more of the Alliance version of Sylvanas, but instead my opinion of Sylvanas has rather dropped. She seems more cowardly hiding behind Thrall and letting Varimathras... (okay, on second thought I guess that is somewhat analogous to Onyxia being in Stormwind for so long).

Magni and Cairne are the more moderate rational type. Both seem more content to stay at home.
Tyrande and Thrall are the more relaxed and calculating types both of whom are facing usurpers.
Velen and Lor'themar are trying to rebuild/re-establish their broken civilizations.
Voljin and Mekkatorque are the lol-who? / irrelevant ones

That kind of leaves Wrynn and Sylvanas to be the aggressive ones. And you can kind of see it. Correct me if I am wrong, but the Hand of Vengeance and Vengeance Landing in Northrend are both because of Sylvanas' offensive? Both Sylvanas and Wrynn want revenge against the Scourge too. Personally though, I think the most interesting thing is Wrynn isn't a Paladin and Sylvanas a Hunter.

(Oh and totally fanboying... Nathantos Blightcaller as a resurrected raid-boss in Icecrown? Sylvanas' former lover... Ranger Lord of the Alliance)

Varian is a hot headed 100-rage 24-7 Warrior, and I wouldn't have him any other way, damn Paladins always taking the spot light with their "The light is the way" crap. *Cough* :P

Stormwind currently sits as the one power in the land where the leader's word ISN'T contested.

And I'd say the Dwarves have just as strong of a presence in the North as Stormwind's forces, albeit for different reasons. While the Forsaken presence all but disappeared after Dragonblight sadly, leaving Hellscream's forces as the dominate Northern Horde presence.

4LV · 01/24/09, 10:17 AM

Originally Posted by Emeraude

Stormwind currently sits as the one power in the land where the leader's word ISN'T contested.

Just out of curiousity. Is your "in the land" Northrend alone, or Eastern Kingdoms plus Northrend? I've recently rolled Alliance, and having no dwarf characters my grasp of Ironforge-esque lore might be a bit hazy, but are you considering the Dark Iron Dwarves, as a rogue faction (trying to blow up Loch Modan etcetera), contesting the word of Magni Bronzebeard?

Because apart from the schemes of their darker brethren, The Ironforge Bronzebeard clan seem quite powerful within their own walls.

Emeraude · 01/24/09, 5:24 PM

Originally Posted by 4LV

Just out of curiousity. Is your "in the land" Northrend alone, or Eastern Kingdoms plus Northrend? I've recently rolled Alliance, and having no dwarf characters my grasp of Ironforge-esque lore might be a bit hazy, but are you considering the Dark Iron Dwarves, as a rogue faction (trying to blow up Loch Modan etcetera), contesting the word of Magni Bronzebeard?

Because apart from the schemes of their darker brethren, The Ironforge Bronzebeard clan seem quite powerful within their own walls.

Well Magni's daughter is preggers for his greatest enemy in the Dark Irons. I imagine that kid would raise hell about his right to the throne, especially since Magni has no other sons/daughters that I know of, and his 2 brothers have no interest in ruling Ironforge.

4LV · 01/24/09, 6:25 PM

Thank you. I had missed the part that said she was pregnant. I just assumed we rescued her and everything was hunky dory. That does indeed look like it could turn out to become yet another open civil war, however I'm quite certain that Blizzard will "never" (as in they should pursue other venues first) bother about adding that little bit. Unless they plan to do an across the board "civil war" theme. Which they could do, as you have pointed out earlier.

Thrall losing popularity and position because prosperity breeds rashness and intolerance in his people,
Magata Grimtotem finally undermining or backstabbing Cairne.
Vahrimathras returning to take control over his covent of the Forsaken and forcing Sylvanas into exile.
Ironforge turning on itself due to the aforementioned heir to the throne conundrum.
The Exodar could be dismantled from within by yet another rogue group of Eredar.

The possibilities are many. In one way I think it could bring life back to the "war in Warcraft" however it would mean either retconning or just completely abandoning a vast amount of already established lore.

Enova · 01/25/09, 3:50 AM

The thing is, the dark irons are vastly unpopular among the Ironforge Dwarves, as all quests seem to point out, and I doubt even the Bronzebeard name and right of succession could change that. If anything, this could point out at an alliance somewhere in the future, albeit a very tense one.