World of Warcraft - Lore & Storyline discussion [SPOILERS] - Page 111

Bren · 01/27/09, 10:27 AM

Originally Posted by Echoplexd

Something that has been picking at my brain lately, is where exactly Yogg-Saron is. Obviously is influence reaches far across Northrend, but where will he show up and when will we get to collect his phat lewts?

Where did you get the impression, that Yogg-Saron can only be in one of those locations? He could be big enough to just stretch under the whole continent. That even opens the possibility of the "surprise raid" being in Yogg-Saron, where the players have to destroy his brain or rescue a half-eaten NPC.

Cobs · 01/27/09, 10:29 AM

Originally Posted by Kirth

I used to think the same way cobs does. then I read "Through the Dark Portal" and the events in that book really leave little doubt that Ner'zhul is only interested in the survival of NZ.

← Click Here

That makes more sense and is sort of an underlying theme of the expansion voiced through other mobs, I just wish they would expand on it more in-game as the Lich King seems pretty passive in all our encounters so far. It would also give a sense of urgency and purpose to needing to defeat him so it doesn't turn into another BT scenario with little reasoning behind killing the big guy. Maybe Blizz is channeling the late great Sir Edmund Hillary and think "because it's there" is reasoning enough to do anything.

Echoplexd · 01/27/09, 10:41 AM

Originally Posted by Bren

Where did you get the impression, that Yogg-Saron can only be in one of those locations? He could be big enough to just stretch under the whole continent. That even opens the possibility of the "surprise raid" being in Yogg-Saron, where the players have to destroy his brain or rescue a half-eaten NPC.

I suppose my limited perspective on "what" he is was based off of my image of our previous encounter with an Old God (C'Thun)

I do like your idea, though - what you mentioned about his being spreading across the continent, reminded me of the mouth-looking-object at the bottom of the Weeping Quarry in Icecrown; It's the model for the base of the Eye of C'Thun.

The thought of raiding inside of him is pretty awesome - it reminds me of an RPG on Dreamcast called Grandia 2. Without getting on too much of a tangent about the story, you actually have to fight through the inside of a dark god and it was pretty wicked. Nice thought to ponder

He is afterall, the "Beast of a Thousand Maws".

david0925 · 01/27/09, 10:54 AM

Originally Posted by Starfire

In regards to the Blue Dragonflight earlier...

What dragon are you talking about exactly? As far as I can tell there are only 5 [of any significance] Blue Dragons who aren't directly malevolent to either the Horde or the Alliance. And I say directly because 1 or 2 of them may have been manipulating the Horde/Alliance.

There's Kalecgos obviously, who is indebt to us.

There's Haleah which has been "good" to us, but then again we were more or less doing her a favor by killing off the heirs of the Dragonflight which obliterated her flight... And a flight which was currently kidnapping and raping members of her own. Enemy of an enemy is a friend, right?

There is Tyrygosa/Princess Tyri who may have manipulated us into bringing back Nether eggs for Malygos. (Interestingly enough, she is mentioned to be in Coldarra/Nexus from Blizzcon, but as far as I know she is not in Northrend).

Then there's Andorgos who seems somewhat insigifnicant, but she presumeably was valorous and aided the mortal races. She supplies the mortal races with armor to battle the Qiraji.

And finally Arygos, who was (is?) the heir of Malygos from a thousand years ago. Arygos was one of the three heirs that was locked into Ahn'Qiraj as thousand years ago. He crafts powerful elementium weaponry for the mortal races.

So what we have here is 2 who are benevolent to the mortal races, 1 who is indebt to us and 2 who may not like us. The rest of the Blue Dragons are aggressive towards us (Azuregos, Spellmaw, Colbatann, etc).

Random interesting facts. Arygos was named Malygos heir a thousand years ago. Tyrygosa is the Princess of the Blue Dragonflight, so presumeably she is/was the new heir via the assumption of Arygos' death. Kalecgos is the mate of Tyrygosa. In theory all three have a sort of "claim to the throne" for the Aspect of Magic.

And real random fact, Arygos and Andorgos take gnome forms, Tyrygosa and Haleh take high-elf form. Kalecgos takes half-elf form. Judging from the above, I wonder if that's purely coincidental or done on purpose (the Gnomes are clearly benevolent to us, the High-Elfs are potentially manipulating us and the Half-Elf is indebt to us).

The lore of us fighting Malygos is pretty weak to be honest. What Malygos has been doing is basically a repeat of what Neltharion (Deathwing) has been doing since WC2, and for the same reason: The mortals don't know WTF they're doing, so we're going to correct their ways. If it means their extermination, then so be it. Which led to a theory that Neltharion's corruption basically got the Malygos through the Netherwing, which are still offspring of Neltharion. You'd think that if Netherwing power actually pulled him out of insanity he'd be able to take more logical (or smoother) approaches. Instead we are given an aspect that went from Emo to Nerdrage (hey that sounds like Garrosh)

On the issue with Tyrigosa, I don't really think she manipulated anyone, as the quests are pretty straightforward about: we need to show these dragons that we're the dominant ones here, after they are tamed I have uses for them. The blue flight is supposed to be friendly towards us, much like the Red, Bronze, and Green. The hostile dragonspawns/drakes are just something that shipped with classic WoW, where we do get both hostile Red and Green Dragons (although I guess you can argue with the fact that they might be corrupted (gasp) by Neltharion and the Emerald Nightmare, respectively)

Wyrmwing · 01/27/09, 11:23 AM

As an Old God, Yogg-Saron has considerable power. Even though they lost the fight against the Titans, they ensured the Titans were unable to destroy all of them, instead simply binding them below Azeroth's surface.

It probably wouldn't be that much of a stretch to just consider Yogg-Saron to be 'somewhere beneath Northrend'. You see signs of his power all over the continent, which pretty much makes it his sphere of influence. C'Thun's weakened form was cast into the desert after his defeat, and yet he was still able to convert its inhabitants into obedient servants in his image and create vast armies that way. Yogg-Saron's methods seem to be more subtle, but if he wasn't weakened as C'Thun was, he could easily serve as the evil behind the scenes.

As for Zul'Drak, I pretty much felt you completed the questline for the area proper. You start by sabotaging the Scourge efforts in the area and eventually kill their local commander, then learn what the trolls have done to fight the Scourge and put a halt to it, and finally head into Gundrak and kill their masterminds as well. I'm not sure if there's anything else there that we left unfinished.

Rhaegal · 01/27/09, 11:23 AM

Originally Posted by Echoplexd

I suppose my limited perspective on "what" he is was based off of my image of our previous encounter with an Old God (C'Thun)

I do like your idea, though - what you mentioned about his being spreading across the continent, reminded me of the mouth-looking-object at the bottom of the Weeping Quarry in Icecrown; It's the model for the base of the Eye of C'Thun.

My impression of C'thun's presence as seen in AQ40 was that we were merely fighting the tip of the iceberg, as it were. We fought our way far into the depths of the Temple below Silithus, and at the very bottom we found the spot where he was closest to the surface, and poked him in the eye until he went away. His actual influence can be seen all across southern Kalimdor, in Feralas, Un'Goro, Tanaris, Thousand Needles, and even up into Southern Barrens, assuming of course that all Silithids are driven by the same hand, which may or may not be the case. Regardless, I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that his presences touches locations underneath each of the locations you mention in Northrend, and delving too deep into any of them could lead to an encounter. Of course, the hole is already dug in Azjol'Nerub, we just have to find the door (or wait for it to find us).

Douglas · 01/27/09, 1:15 PM

Originally Posted by Cobs

I agree that it isn't a stretch for the Lich King to want to destroy the world now. What I think is missing for me are the reasons and justifications why.

I don't think there's much to miss there. Even if the Lich King completely consolidates his hold over Azeroth, there's still stuff out there that can threaten him. The burning legion, the old gods, the return of the titans, the Naaru, and those are just the things we know about.

I think the Lich King feels (justifiably or not) very, very threatened, exposed, and vulnerable, and is still in a mad scramble to consolidate enough power to simply withstand the next attack. All of Azeroth is just one weapon he can use to defend himself, and he doesn't have a complete grip on it yet, and even when he does it simply might not be enough. How many Naaru-like species are out there, somewhere? What happens if three civilizations of that sort were to focus attacks on our world at once?

Originally Posted by Rhaegal

My impression of C'thun's presence as seen in AQ40 was that we were merely fighting the tip of the iceberg, as it were.

I am in absolute, complete agreement -- pretty much literally.

The Old Gods are so obviously based on Lovecraft that I try to think of them in the same terms. So I see them as n-dimensional non-Euclidean beings. I don't see them as simply three-dimensional like us.

If you've read "Flatland", well, that book deals with a two-dimensional character who encounters a three-dimensional character, and talks about their projections into two-dimensional space and how they'd be perceived and how they wouldn't really be the whole entity or any kind of accurate representation of them. That's exactly how I see the Old Gods -- Azeroth is something like a bubble or membrane, and they're in the space that membrane stretches across, and push and prod against it and project into it, having effects we can interact with. But what we see isn't the entirety of them, any more than the circle formed by sticking one of our fingers into the surface of a pool of liquid would be the entirety of one of us.

Starfire · 01/27/09, 6:03 PM

It's said at Blizzcon Tyrigosa bringing back the eggs to Malygos is what "cures" him and sets him off on his rage to against the magic-users. Of course they may have just abandoned that lore/plot-line.

Mr. Crow · 01/27/09, 6:21 PM

Originally Posted by Starfire

It's said at Blizzcon Tyrigosa bringing back the eggs to Malygos is what "cures" him and sets him off on his rage to against the magic-users. Of course they may have just abandoned that lore/plot-line.

When Metzen was talking about that, he also brought up the Naga presence in Borean Tundra. The Riplash Ruins were supposed to be the Naga working a plot to melt the ice of Northrend -- some diabolical plot that in the end sounds about as useful as them draining Zangarmarsh back in BC. Considering that the Naga have been reduced to a single quest-giver instead of a series of quest-objectives, and that their presence has been replaced with the Vrykul, I'm thinking that the design was changed to tie the area in with the rest of the expansion's story. And the Vrykul are much more prominent in the Wrath kit, where the Naga really aren't.

The absence of Tyrigosa and Kalecgos is hard to quantify -- maybe we'll have an explanation when the Blue Chamber is revealed, or when Crystalsong gets populated with quests. While Tyri and Kalec have been an ally to humanity in the past, we've seen no one amongst the Blue Flight who's defected from Malygos' control. While I don't expect that they're raidboss material, I think we'll definitely be struggling with them both in some way.

That being said, those two (Kalec and Tyri) are probably the most likely pair to take over Malygos' aegis as head of the what remains of the Blue Flight -- however, without the empowerment of the Titans, no one can replace the Aspect of Magic.

Thorgrim · 01/27/09, 6:53 PM

Originally Posted by Mr. Crow

That being said, those two (Kalec and Tyri) are probably the most likely pair to take over Malygos' aegis as head of the what remains of the Blue Flight -- however, without the empowerment of the Titans, no one can replace the Aspect of Magic.

That would make for a possible quest line entry into Ulduar proper - maybe we need to go in there to get whatever it is that is needed to empower the next Aspect.

Ghando · 01/27/09, 6:59 PM

Originally Posted by Mr. Crow

When Metzen was talking about that, he also brought up the Naga presence in Borean Tundra. The Riplash Ruins were supposed to be the Naga working a plot to melt the ice of Northrend -- some diabolical plot that in the end sounds about as useful as them draining Zangarmarsh back in BC.

I like the idea of the Naga as the Cobra of WoW, forever destined to hatch and feebly execute ludicrous/grandiose plots. Unfortunately we already killed Cobra Commander in SSC, but there's no reason she can't come back like Kael.

Starfire · 01/27/09, 7:07 PM

Originally Posted by Ghando

I like the idea of the Naga as the Cobra of WoW, forever destined to hatch and feebly execute ludicrous/grandiose plots. Unfortunately we already killed Cobra Commander in SSC, but there's no reason she can't come back like Kael.

I don't quite know what your Cobra reference is coming from (It's not GI Joe is it? well that's what Cobra Commander reminds me of). But it's an interesting reference because both are Indian.

Naga are of Indian origin and Azshara is clearly modelled after the Indian God Shiva. And interestingly enough, Shiva is known to have a Cobra form and/or always has a Cobra around him or his neck. (The statues of Queen Azshara in Quel'danas and Azshara have her in the position of Shiva doing the cosmic dance).

Mr. Crow · 01/27/09, 7:20 PM

Originally Posted by Ghando

I like the idea of the Naga as the Cobra of WoW, forever destined to hatch and feebly execute ludicrous/grandiose plots. Unfortunately we already killed Cobra Commander in SSC, but there's no reason she can't come back like Kael.

Well, as we know, Cobra Commander was merely an underling of Serpentor. (Why I remember this, I don't know.)

By the same token, Vashj was taking her actions in Outland based ostensibly on orders from Azshara. It might be that Blizzard nixed the Naga presence in Wrath so that they wouldn't be played out in this expansion only to become the prime foot soldiers of the opposition in the Maelstrom.

As for the Naga being COBRA, it's not that they're an organization given to farce and silly plots, but that their presence is often not really well-defined. We know the Naga are draining the water out of Zangarmarsh, but there's not a real clear explanation as to why they're doing and why it becomes unimportant -- since SSC and The Eye didn't really conclude the stories in their zones, it's hard to tell if Vashj is actually canonically dead. She's left very enigmatic for the whole of BC, and that doesn't really expand much on her behavior from WC3.

I think we will see the rise of the Naga as a serious organization when Azshara rears her ugly head. So I'll place my bets for that on the next expansion.

Starfire · 01/27/09, 7:42 PM

The Naga seem to be more "chaotic" at the moment while Queen Azshara plots. Kind of like a Azshara is in control laissez-faire and various groups of Nagas are just doing whatever they please.

Vaccine · 01/28/09, 4:12 AM

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

That would make for a possible quest line entry into Ulduar proper - maybe we need to go in there to get whatever it is that is needed to empower the next Aspect.

Possibly but I'm more siding with the theory that Alexstrasza is angling to become the ultimate Dragon Aspect empowered from the other 4. She already has us offing Malygos, with Neltharion or Nozdormu as possible next targets. Not saying theres anything sinister about it nessecarily but thats the way I see it going. Just promoting another blue would not nessecarily be a sure thing, especially if he's affect with Corruption™ that affects 90% of things in WoW. I miss bad guys that are bad just because they are bastards.