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01/30/09, 10:53 AM
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#1726
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Don Flamenco
Human Death Knight
Archimonde
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Originally Posted by Tyrian
So Wrath gate was Act 1, essentially serving solely to set the scene of whats to come. We'll all be left eagerly wondering now what Acts 2/3 are and which content patches they will tie in with.
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Well, as a writer, Act I is get your hero up a tree. Act II is throw rocks at your hero. At the end of Act II, a rock hits your hero in the face and breaks his nose. Act III your hero gets down from the tree. As they are using the Wrathgate and Arthas for the main storyline, it's safe to assume that the other act breaks will relate to that.
Act III would be Icecrown Citadel itself.
Act II - that's going on now in terms of story progression. The Cathedral of Darkness questline is probably near the end of the rising action of the main narrative. Act II normally ends with some major event that makes Act III inevitable and the only possible resolution to the problem. You're either out of options (Independence Day), or your adversary is clearly identified and waiting (action movies) or you need to get back together with the person you just broke up with (any romantic comedy).
The Titan and Old God stuff isn't really part of the same plotline. I doubt that the Titans are going to show up before Arthas is confronted. Yogg-Saron might, as he's much more closely tied to the Lich King.
The basic structural assumption is that that Act II is going to end in some sort of Arthas atrocity against the meatbags swarming into Icecrown Glacier that causes a real "darkest hour." That probably has nothing to do with Uldurr. It would also be a real structural mess to raise Yogg-Saron to an "A" (main) plotline before resolving Arthas. I can't really see them doing a 180 on all the marketing and build-up and having Yogg-Saron bushwhack Arthas at the end of an Act II.
Last edited by Talgog : 01/30/09 at 11:00 AM.
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01/30/09, 11:34 AM
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#1727
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Piston Honda
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I don't think that Yogg-Saron is likely to be the end boss for this expansion, either. Aside from the fact that it is named "Wrath of the Lich King", there's this stuff from Tigole in the podcast (italics mine):

Jeffrey Kaplan: Well certainly not. I mean Arthas is just one bad guy. A lot of people will really get upset with us when we talk about Wrath of Lich King and the fact that you’re going to have a chance to encounter Arthas and they’ll say, “How could you kill Arthas? He’s what Warcraft was built on.”
Nethaera: Right.
Jeffrey Kaplan: But that really is a recent view of things. A lot of people don’t realize that Arthas was mainly developed in Warcraft III which was the game right before WoW and there were many Warcrafts before that and expansions to those RTS games where we introduced new villains and we killed them and introduced new heroes and killed them off. So I feel like Arthas is awesome, he’s one of our greatest bad guys but, you know, we can come up with a lot of great bad guys for you to fight. There’s already a lot of villains out there in the WoW lore or the Warcraft lore that people haven’t even encountered or want to know, you know, what’s going on with that. If you look at Onyxia and Nefarian, they’re just the son and daughter of a really bad guy, that nobody’s encountered yet.
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He doesn't come right out and say that the players are going to kill Arthas in this expansion, but it's not hard to read between the lines here.
It's also intriguing to see the shout-out specifically to Deathwing.
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01/30/09, 12:06 PM
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#1728
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Von Kaiser
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What I found interesting was the part about the Dragonflights.
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Originally Posted by Metzen
I guess it wouldn’t hurt to illustrate that someone came along and created this nightmare scenario within the Emerald Dream and, effectively, really put a serious distraction along Ysera and the Green Dragonflight. Someone came along and put a zap on Nozdormu, who has been absent for a few years in the continuity, as evidenced in the Caverns of Time scenarios. So the Bronze Dragonflight is also very befuddled and distracted in this current age. The Black Dragonflight, for about 10,000 years now, has been, you could argue, distracted. It has been veered from its pure purpose in defending this earth. Not too long after that, the Blue Dragonflight got super distracted. Malygos kind of lost his mind there for awhile. So you could argue, are these random events or is there some unforeseen force at work trying to destabilize and/or bring ruin upon the five dragonflights that were originally empowered to protect this world?
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Metzen is clearly hinting that everything that's been going on with the five flights isn't just a series of seperate events.
Now, the question is, who's behind it? My first instinct is, of course, the Old Gods. Which would show them as even more cunning then we realized, and we already know far more about them than any in-game character. If this is true, then the Old Gods certainly are working with a Bigger Picture in mind, bigger than any of us even considered.
Then there's the possibility that it's not the Old Gods, which really only leaves Sargeras. And while he certainly has the motivation (I'm sure he remembers the Dragons from the War of the Ancients), I have a little trouble seeing him as subtle and manipulative enough for this.
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01/30/09, 12:27 PM
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#1729
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Piston Honda
Human Warlock
Steamwheedle Cartel
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Originally Posted by Lysara
Then there's the possibility that it's not the Old Gods, which really only leaves Sargeras. And while he certainly has the motivation (I'm sure he remembers the Dragons from the War of the Ancients), I have a little trouble seeing him as subtle and manipulative enough for this.
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That would be right up our good ol' friend Kil'jaeden's alley, though.
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01/30/09, 12:55 PM
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#1730
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Von Kaiser
Night Elf Death Knight
Skywall
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Originally Posted by Lysara
Then there's the possibility that it's not the Old Gods, which really only leaves Sargeras. And while he certainly has the motivation (I'm sure he remembers the Dragons from the War of the Ancients), I have a little trouble seeing him as subtle and manipulative enough for this.
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Perhaps Azshara? She does seem like the manipulative type, I guess the question would be does she have the power to manipulate an Aspect. It would be an interesting way to segue from Northrend into a maelstrom expansion.
Also one thing that has been nagging at the back of my mind that could point to the maelstrom next... they mentioned that they were going to prevent water from dismounting you and that your land mount would just swim. This seemed like an odd change to make right now since there really isn't that much water in Northrend.
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01/30/09, 12:57 PM
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#1731
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Don Flamenco
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I've always wondered if the Old Gods were working together, neutral to each other, or adversaries to each other. That interview seems to hint at some sort of working relationship, if not alliance, with each other.
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01/30/09, 1:00 PM
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#1732
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Von Kaiser
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From a meta-plot standpoint, it stands to reason that if the Blizzard team is going to array the troubles of the Dragonflights as something that was planned and coordinated, it's the Old Gods pulling the strings. Considering that the whole thing started with Neltharion's corruption - which is attributed to the Old Gods - I expect we'll see some stories or hints of their involvement in Nozdormu's absence, Malygos' insanity, and Ysera's Nightmare. Even if there are plot aspects that point out things otherwise, I wouldn't hold on to them too tightly, since Blizzard has been known to crush a few plot points into order to retcon things into something that seems smoother.
Although it does make me wonder if there's something in store for Alexstraza, or if the possible conspiracy was fine with just isolating the Red Flight instead of neutralizing them.
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01/30/09, 1:01 PM
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#1733
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Bald Bull
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I guess the question would be does she have the power to manipulate an Aspect
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Azshara and the Tomb of Sargeras would go hand in hand very well. Both conveniently in the Maelstrom. What better place to source power than the tombs energy, or even an avatar of Sargeras himself whos promising her untold power/revenge for her allegiance? (In exchange for meddling with the Aspects, of course). A Sargeras avatar / Azshara alliance would be quite similar to Kil'jaeden/Kael'thas, but still certainly has potential.
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01/30/09, 1:06 PM
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#1734
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Deceptively Below Average
Human Death Knight
Garona
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I'm beginning to think that we are entering a scenario where the aspects are no longer a net benefit to Azeroth as a whole. That is that they've become so consumed with their own problems and the subsequently created problems that they are no longer performing the tasks they were each meant for. Either they succumb to corruption or are so lost from their path that they no longer know what their purpose is.
The greens are busy fighting an evil that is taking over what they are and turning their own against them.
The blues have declared war on us.
The bronzes are dealing with a flight that has abilities amazingly akin to their own.
The reds are busy fighting both the blues due to an alliance with us and the blacks who are almost all exclusively evil.
If this is correct then I imagine then that the players will have to be the instrument of the aspect's destruction in an attempt to restore balance akin to that of the Legacy of Kain series.
Another possibility is rather than the destruction, possible purification and/or redemption. However, I see the destruction option as more viable as it would expose Azeroth to other evils attacking or exploiting us thus creating a whole new source of content and plot for players to deal with.
We've already killed one aspect, now I would like to know the consequences of such an action.
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01/30/09, 1:41 PM
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#1735
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Bald Bull
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That would be right up our good ol' friend Kil'jaeden's alley, though.
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I disagree with this. KJ has been able to manipulate people directly into his cause, but even then he's never been particularly subtle. Corrupting the dragonflight for thousands of years isn't something that KJ would bother with; why would he be coming to Azeroth 10k years ago? Was he even meaningfully around then?
Sargeras might have the oomph and foresight to do it, but the Old Gods sound like a far more likely culprit. They don't work directly on anyone, they do corrupt the views of their targets, they take things slowly and they do so love fighting against the Titan's main creations. It's an interesting idea to think that the curse of the flesh had the main effect of destroying Titan creations, but has a side effect of basically destroying the Blue Dragonflight via introduction of a set of races who could use magic and did so indiscriminately.
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01/30/09, 1:54 PM
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#1736
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Von Kaiser
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Originally Posted by Bloo Driver
From a meta-plot standpoint, it stands to reason that if the Blizzard team is going to array the troubles of the Dragonflights as something that was planned and coordinated, it's the Old Gods pulling the strings. Considering that the whole thing started with Neltharion's corruption - which is attributed to the Old Gods - I expect we'll see some stories or hints of their involvement in Nozdormu's absence, Malygos' insanity, and Ysera's Nightmare. Even if there are plot aspects that point out things otherwise, I wouldn't hold on to them too tightly, since Blizzard has been known to crush a few plot points into order to retcon things into something that seems smoother.
Although it does make me wonder if there's something in store for Alexstraza, or if the possible conspiracy was fine with just isolating the Red Flight instead of neutralizing them.
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Ya there is a lot of tie-ins ther but theres also a few that aren't a huge leap too. Malygos went insane after he tried to stop Neltharion and had his flight nearly wiped out which could have been attributed to the Old Gods. The red flight was also imprisoned and weakened by the demon soul. Since we know that the Old Gods had a hand in the inception and possibly creation of the Demon/Dragon Soul it could easily come out that it was a frostmourne-esque corrupting device that the Old Gods could speak through and continue pursuing their agenda against the dragons. It would also make sense that as the stewards of the world they would also be responsible for making sure the Old Gods were kept locked away. And if we continue killing off dragons and aspects then that might be a way the Old Gods escape and we need to kill them.
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01/30/09, 1:58 PM
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#1737
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Piston Honda
Night Elf Druid
Dark Iron
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Originally Posted by ravistis
I'm beginning to think that we are entering a scenario where the aspects are no longer a net benefit to Azeroth as a whole. That is that they've become so consumed with their own problems and the subsequently created problems that they are no longer performing the tasks they were each meant for. Either they succumb to corruption or are so lost from their path that they no longer know what their purpose is.
The greens are busy fighting an evil that is taking over what they are and turning their own against them.
The blues have declared war on us.
The bronzes are dealing with a flight that has abilities amazingly akin to their own.
The reds are busy fighting both the blues due to an alliance with us and the blacks who are almost all exclusively evil.
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I'm not sure if you're entirely correct about the green and blue aspects, though.
Since it's not totally clear what the relationship between the Emerald Dream and the real world is, I'm not really sure that we can say that the green's fighting the nightmare is straying from their purpose. And all we've really learned from Wrath so far is that it's really green.
As far as the blues are concerned, I'm not sure if it's supposed to be the entire blue dragonflight(as most of the NPC's seem to make it out as) or just a smaller subset of Malygos' most trusted underlings. It seems very strange that Kalecgos and Tyrygosa have not appeared yet, especially considering that Tyri was the one that essentially "woke up" Malygos, and Kalec's involvement with the mortal races at the Sunwell.
It's possible that the lighting of the Sunwell was the reason that Malygos lost it and started the entire war. However, I think the Sunwell Plateau's ending event implies that the new Sunwell is a fountain of Holy Light, not just magic.
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01/30/09, 2:07 PM
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#1738
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Von Kaiser
Human Death Knight
Moonglade (EU)
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Originally Posted by Faldrath
The thing about fighting corruption (related to Duiliath's post above) is that it eventually beats you even if you "win". What remains to be seen is whether this is actually Sargeras' general approach (planting the seeds of corruption instead of outright destroying worlds) or if it's just the Old Gods' modus operandi, so to speak.
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Sargeras certainly fits, as that was the manner of his own fall from grace. It would have a certain elan to use the method which ensnared him to achieve his ultimate victory over Azeroth. I'm more excited about the future direction of the lore with these little teasers about life after Wrath.
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01/30/09, 3:29 PM
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#1739
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Deceptively Below Average
Human Death Knight
Garona
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Originally Posted by Cube
I'm not sure if you're entirely correct about the green and blue aspects, though.
Since it's not totally clear what the relationship between the Emerald Dream and the real world is, I'm not really sure that we can say that the green's fighting the nightmare is straying from their purpose. And all we've really learned from Wrath so far is that it's really green.
As far as the blues are concerned, I'm not sure if it's supposed to be the entire blue dragonflight(as most of the NPC's seem to make it out as) or just a smaller subset of Malygos' most trusted underlings. It seems very strange that Kalecgos and Tyrygosa have not appeared yet, especially considering that Tyri was the one that essentially "woke up" Malygos, and Kalec's involvement with the mortal races at the Sunwell.
It's possible that the lighting of the Sunwell was the reason that Malygos lost it and started the entire war. However, I think the Sunwell Plateau's ending event implies that the new Sunwell is a fountain of Holy Light, not just magic.
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Regardless of the cause, he has still declared war on us.
Kalecgos is aware of the animosity between his father and the mortal races and is or was in lock step with Malygos due to his actions and reactions in Night of the Dragon.
And as for the greens, they are being corrupted: the dragons of nightmare, Eranikus.
We know the source of that corruption is the old gods.
They've already corrupted one aspect, Neltharion.
What is to stop them from claiming another?
We could easily stroll into the emerald dream somehow via a redeemed Eranikus or Remulos to find Malfurion and whoever is with him fighting a corrupted Ysera and her children. Cenarius would give us a tearful sob story about how we shouldnt kill his mommy/nanny but the point is at some point we cant bring back the corrupted into the fold.
The old gods are rather elusive and expansive at the same time, they are able to corrupt almost anything.
If the morality choices being made in WOTLK are any indication of whats to come, we may be forced to cut the proverbial necrotic flesh off before we can fight the infection.
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01/30/09, 3:34 PM
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#1740
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Don Flamenco
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Since Wrath confirms that Nathrezim are harder to kill than cockroaches, I wouldn't be surprised if Tichondrius showed-up between now and a Broken Isles expansion. He's a close second to Sargeras as the source of the "distant voice" from the Battle for the Undercity."
Also, Ulduar could be fairly easily included in the main Icecrown raid storyline without providing too much back-story (or significant retconning). I seem to remember reading a preview of Wrath about the Lich King having enemies that his mindless undead minions couldn't handle. By implication, the assistance of the players would be required, but not necessarily a good thing.
Yogg Saron is defeated, leaving a lootable corpse/chest.
The Lich King yells: I was just getting around to that. Thanks for the Old God corpse, suckers!
The Scourge now has something with a thousand maws. And tentacles. Lots of tentacles.
The trash and bosses of just about every instance cleared by player could be similarly reanimated into service of the Lich King. Or maybe, on some level, that's what's been happening all along and we call it "replay value." For the moment, this could explain weekly Naxx clears (on an RP server at least); someone clearly forgot to loot that phylactery from KT.
Maybe his nefarious plot to dominate Azeroth is somehow related to hijacking Raid ID's?
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[19:36:45.096] Spleen gains 15 energy from Spleen's Tricks of the Trade
[19:36:45.408] Osseric gains Tricks of the Trade from Spleen
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