World of Warcraft - Lore & Storyline discussion [SPOILERS] - Page 119

Kaejin · 02/04/09, 12:43 PM

Garona didn't want to kill Wrynn in the first place. I'm not sure him being the father to her child would have been enough to counter what forced her to kill him.

As for Hakkar, perhaps I was too hasty in saying he was small time, but I stand by him not being an Old God himself. As I said, he's just not similar enough to the other two we know and his method of operation is too blunt. He's just not Lovecraftian enough.

Cobs · 02/04/09, 1:38 PM

Originally Posted by Emeraude

And who's Garona's baby's daddy? What if it was King Llane Wrynn, and Varian has a half Orc brother. O_o

And next week on Day's of our Lives....

The likely candidates would be King Llane, Khadgar or Medivh I would think.

LucidityAxel · 02/04/09, 2:01 PM

WotLK Wiki has some unsubstantiated rumors in the form of an interview of someone who claims to be a 3D modeler for Blizzard: Yet another Tuesday. - WotLK Wiki

Highlights:

- No Yogg Saron in Ulduar.
- No decisions made on location of next xpac, but they seem to be leaning towards the Southern Seas with Azshara + Sargeras as the big bads.
- The optional boss encounter in Ulduar is vehicle-based.
- Thorim is dead, and all the other watchers (except Freya) are Ulduar bosses.
- Icecrown is still just concept art, not yet a zone.
- 3.2 will be an interim content release after Ulduar and before Icecrown, with a new raid and a new zone.
- The new zone is the Azol-Nerub concept that was pulled from the original expansion release. No idea if it will still be called Azol-Nerub or have a new name since there's aleready a 5-man with that name.
- Underground zone will have no flying mounts, but will have a city/quest hub with a portal to Dalaran, It will have phased stages and daily quests, with an emphasis on a story line.
- Given the current state of Ulduar in development, he doesn't think 3.1 will be released until April at the earliest.
- The "basement" underneath Karazhan is literally a playground for modelers. It is not an instance and the players will never see it.

So that's the highlights - take them with a big grain of salt and we can see whether or not they play out in reality over the next several months.

shed · 02/04/09, 2:46 PM

I wouldn't believe a single thing from that "interview".

Emeraude · 02/04/09, 3:20 PM

Originally Posted by Cobs

The likely candidates would be King Llane, Khadgar or Medivh I would think.

I would throw Doomhammer in that mix as well, as it's documented that he had her captured and made her reveal information about Gul'dan at one point during the 2nd war.

Leguaran · 02/04/09, 3:23 PM

Originally Posted by 4LV

Could we have a source or quote on that? Because in this topic the suggestion has (several times) been that Thrall and Jaina go along a bit too well. Though that could only be because Thrall sees Jaina as the spiritual successor to Tabetha.

It's from Chris Metzen at Blizzcon of couple years back now, though the quote is somewhat distorted.

Paraphrasing it while attempting to keep all the meaning: "I've thought of making Garona a love interest for Thrall, I mean, if there's an orc girl badass enough for Thrall out there, it would certainly be Garona... but that's just a thought in my mind now, not something I've sold to the other guys already."

I believe if you look at the Lore Panel video on youtube for Blizzcon '07 you'll find the exact quote - I think it's in the Q&A portion of the panel.

Link to said panel: YouTube - Blizzcon 07 WoW Lore Panel . It is 56mins long. I can't pinpoint it right now.

Jagiya · 02/05/09, 12:36 AM

Phew. 11 pages of reading before I finally caught up with my last visit. You guys sure do keep it juicy!

In light of the quotes from the recent Blizzcast... the whole "Old Gods being responsible for each unfortunate event in dragonflight history" concept is pretty damn exciting. Divide and conquer being hard at work, it really seems likely that the Old Gods, in their patient and corrupting nature are ripping apart the protectors of Azeroth piece by piece.

If anything, it would appear as though an Old God once promised Deathwing quite a few slices of the Power Pie, and all of the events that have taken place since then have been orders from the Old Gods. It's been far too long since I stepped foot in Ahn'Qiraj, and I don't recall any of the events at the opening of the Gates, but I really think it would be fascinating to put together a documented timeline of each unfortunate event within the dragonflights' histories and connect the dots between the Old Gods.

Some examples;

- I recall Dragon intervention during the AQ Gates event. Why were they there? Was it purely because members of the dragonflights had been captured by the Qiraji?
- Which dragons were captured by the Qiraji and why? What was the Old God trying to achieve by capturing them? (A quick WoWHead/WoWWiki search will yield these results, I'll edit my post with conclusions soon)
- I recall one of the captured dragons was one of the aforementioned heirs to the Blue throne? By imprisoning one heir, and driving another mad (and eventually forcing the Reds/mortals into killing him), is it really a stretch of the imagination to consider that the Old Gods are trying to eliminate any source of leadership within the Blues, or even worse - specifically force leadership unto one of their agents? (Tyri)
- From WotLK Beta until now, we've considered every option for Noz. Is he responsible for the Infinites? Why would he be? How is he going to die? When? So many mysteries surround him, but none of them linked back to Old Gods. Could it be that they have someone on the inside, who incapacitated Noz in an attempt to produce the Infinites?
- Old Gods are the only ones who've been around on Azeroth long enough to cause this kind of damage/corruption to the Blue, Green and Black Dragonflights.
- What is their motive? Eliminate the protectors of Azeroth - and then what? What is keeping them imprisoned?

Too many questions, and I'm way too out of date with alot of the answers. I'll do some reading and edit my post, but if anyone else would like to attempt to string together a list of connections, I'd be very interested to see what you can come up with.

EDIT1:

Out of desperation Fandral sought the aid of the elusive bronze dragonflight. Their initial refusal to interfere was reversed when the brazen Qiraji attacked the Caverns of Time, home and province of Nozdormu the Timeless One.

Nozdormu's heir, Anachronos, agreed to enlist the bronze dragonflight against the marauding Qiraji. Every able-bodied night elf joined the cause, and together they forged a campaign to retake Silithus.

Even with the might of the dragons backing them, however, the sheer numbers of the Qiraji and silithid proved overwhelming. And so Anachronos called upon the progeny of the remaining flights: Merithra, child of Ysera of the green flight; Caelestrasz, child of Alexstrasza from the red, and Arygos, child of Malygos from the blue.

The dragons and winged Qiraji clashed in the cloudless sky above Silithus as the whole of the Kalimdorian night elf forces streamed in across the sands. Even so, it seemed that the numbers of Qiraji and silithid were never-ending.

Shiromar later heard whispers that the dragons flying above the ancient city from which the Qiraji emerged saw something distressing there; something that hinted at a more ancient, terrifying presence behind the onslaught of the insect race.

To push any further would be impossible. Merithra, Caelestrasz and Arygos decided to push into the city and hold the Qiraji back long enough for Anachronos, Fandral, and the remaining druids and priestesses to create the magical barrier.

And so the three dragons and their companions flew headlong into the Qiraji legions, into the city where they hoped their sacrifice would not be in vain.

Old Gods are known to be among the most powerful beings that ever walked Azeroth. No one knows their true names or nature. All that is known is that there were five of them. The young world was theirs and they ruled it as they pleased. Azeroth was overwhelmed by elemental storms and Old Gods held tyranny over it. When the Titans came, millennia, aeons passed during fights against the five Old Gods. One was killed, and its remains can be seen at the Master's Glaive in Darkshore, Kalimdor with an immense sword piercing its skull; others were defeated. Three were weakened (although still powerful beyond mortal comprehension), while one, C'Thun fell into the barren lands of Silithus. Fell, but didn't die.

For countless ages, C'Thun would sleep and watch as races evolved, fought each other, saw invasion of the Legion and still, created plans for the future - its future.

Noted that once the Titans figured they had the situation "under control", they empowered some dragons and tasked them with the job of keeping the Old Gods in check? Considering the connections between the Aqir, Azjol'Nerub & Yogg-Saron, it's not hard to draw collaberation between the Old Gods.

C'Thun bears a striking resemblance to the Forgotten One beneath Azjol'Nerub in Warcraft III: The Frozen Throne.

With more connections from C'Thun to the final boss of Ahn'Kahet...

...the idea of insanity, such as the Dark Edge of Insanity item drop, as well as possibly several of his quotes, such as "Your friends will abandon you", and "You will betray your friends".

I think it's pretty clear that the Old Gods are certainly working together to achieve the same goal; whatever that may be. At this stage, it appears to simply induce chaos via insanity. (Malygos, Deathwing)

The Old Gods sometimes whisper to mortals, ultimately driving them mad.

Neltharion, Malfurion, and Varo'then listened to the old whisperings of the old gods who tainted their thoughts when they had the Demon Soul in their hands. Eventually, Netharion lost clarity of his mind calling himself "Deathwing" and seeking to destroy all non-draconic life. Malfurion has also stated that "Ysera's noble brood has fallen victim to the old whisperings". Highborne queen Azshara is said to have heard the calls of the Old Gods who promised to save the life of the highborne victims of the Sundering by transforming them to serpentine nagas. She accepted their offer. Later, the exiled Highborne landed in Tirisfal Glades after their exile and started going insane due to whisperings.

Even the tauren history within the scrolls of lore at the Elder Rise in Thunder Bluff mentions "The dark whispers from the deeps of the world".

Vaccine · 02/05/09, 3:33 AM

From Blizzcon 2007:

Originally Posted by Chris Metzen

Q: Garona Halforcen
A: Would like to try to make her significant. She is a very cool character and would like to try to bring her back in and make her a den mother of the orcish race. Just an opinion, not sold to the boys yet, but it would be cool to find Thrall a mate one day ... (laughter). I mean, he's gotta have sons, right? That's my thinking but we'll see how that pans out.

Ivriniel · 02/05/09, 4:39 AM

Originally Posted by Faldrath

I'm not sure if Garona's pregnancy/child and related issues would ever be developed in WoW itself, though, given how much of an asexual and childless game WoW is (this is not a complaint about Blizz, just an observation - they have their reasons, anyway).

I was thinking of that when I saw Rhonin and next to him Vereesa, where in Dalaran are the twins they have together?
Judging from Night of the Dragon, they'd never leave them alone for a longer period of time.

4LV · 02/05/09, 8:07 AM

Originally Posted by Jagiya

If anything, it would appear as though an Old God once promised Deathwing quite a few slices of the Power Pie, and all of the events that have taken place since then have been orders from the Old Gods.

I actually object. Sadly, I'm in York (UK) at the moment, so I don't have any of my books with me, but I was sure that Deathwing felt powerful enough on his own, and just had his view on guarding nature and the earth corrupted, as the Old Gods didn't promise him power, just focused his attention on how the mortal races (and by the extension of that, the other Dragon Flights) were allowed to cut the forests, wage wars, mine the mountains and in general "destroy" his Domain.

I was thinking back at the loose end I posted on the previous page, about the Old Norse etymology of "vordr" meaning guardian (as in vordrassil) and I was thinking; could it be related to the fall of Neltharion, or the fall of the Dragon Race as a whole (with the corruption of Neltharion)? He was, after all, the Earth-Warder (Jord-Vordr).

Thairne · 02/05/09, 8:57 AM

That would rather fit in the domain of Ysera.
A big, life-extending tree is still a tree. And Ysera has the Emerald Dream (and with that Druids) and in general nature under her wings. Visit her shrine, its a rather lush place.

Duodecimal · 02/05/09, 10:06 AM

Hakkar is more likely to be an old troll god than an Old God. The ice trolls clearly sacrifice their own gods; Hakkar was probably a similar case of a powerful troll animal aspect god being killed and then resurrected. He doesn't have all the lovecraftian flavor of the explicitly plain Old Gods in the game.

Vord/Vard ... could also be wald or wold, or a corruption of it. So vordrassil == Crown of the Forest?

panny · 02/05/09, 10:30 AM

What about Sunken Temple? He was probably meant to be an Old God before Blizzard pinned down what they really meant by the term. I could see it going either way. He's probably a Not That Old God or something.

Desta · 02/05/09, 10:43 AM

Originally Posted by 4LV

I actually object. Sadly, I'm in York (UK) at the moment, so I don't have any of my books with me, but I was sure that Deathwing felt powerful enough on his own, and just had his view on guarding nature and the earth corrupted, as the Old Gods didn't promise him power, just focused his attention on how the mortal races (and by the extension of that, the other Dragon Flights) were allowed to cut the forests, wage wars, mine the mountains and in general "destroy" his Domain.

As far as I recall, it was something along the lines of [Old God whispering to Deathwing]"Everyone is jealous of your power and they will try to steal it".
I can't recall if this was referring to the Dragon Soul or whether the Dragon Soul was created to prevent this "theft of power". However, later on, when the Soul was already created, Deathwing gave me the impression that he regarded it similarly to how Smeagol/Gollum regarded the One Ring. Same desperation when Malfurion stole it, same constant worrying that someone will steal it/destroy it.
He even threw a hissy fit and nearly killed the goblins when he accidentally scratched the Soul and realized it's not indestructible as he was told; he calmed down once the goblin chief (can't recall name) explained that it can only be destroyed by himself (by Deathwing that is). Which in turn explains how Rhonin was able to destroy using a modified scale off Deathwing (IIRC).

If someone is interested I can look up a few edifying excerpts from the book.

Enova · 02/05/09, 11:02 AM

Originally Posted by panny

What about Sunken Temple? He was probably meant to be an Old God before Blizzard pinned down what they really meant by the term. I could see it going either way. He's probably a Not That Old God or something.

Well, the fact that he's old and he's a god does not necessarily make him an Old God. I know, that's just twisting words, but as far as I could tell, Old Gods seemed more like parasites that couldn't really leave their host (assuming the host was Azeroth, they couldn't really leave its inner cores). That would explain why C'thun, as encountered in AQ is a static entity. Hakkar, however, proves to be a lot more mobile. My personal theory for Hakkar is that he's similar to the totemic gods of the Trolls, possibly even one of them corrupted by the greater influence of the Old Gods. He could be aligned with them and still be an ancient deity. Just because these were primal gods doesn't mean they weren't vulnerable to some powers greater than them.