World of Warcraft - Lore & Storyline discussion [SPOILERS] - Page 127

4LV · 02/11/09, 2:07 PM

Hmm, interesting point about the runes and the lack of rebel dragons. It is a very interesting topic, especially since the replacement of Malygos as an Aspect is the first of its kind, Nozdormu, Nelatharion, Alexstrasza and Ysera are still alive. What precedent will Blizzard figure out?

I wonder if the Aspect will be "democratically" chosen by the other Aspects, or if the Blue Flight gets to have any say in who they want as their leader. As far as the red flight goes, it seems that they all follow Alexstrasza's bidding and command out of love and respect for their mother, similarly the green dragons, however whom would the blue flight actually accept as a successor to malygos? Could we be having the very first intra-flight rebellion on our hands?

Douglas · 02/11/09, 2:27 PM

Originally Posted by 4LV

I wonder if the Aspect will be "democratically" chosen by the other Aspects, or if the Blue Flight gets to have any say in who they want as their leader.

I have to ask this question: why are people thinking of "new Aspect of magic" as "new leader of the blue dragonflight"?

Do we have reason to believe that the blue dragons were servants of the aspect of magic for an reason other than that the Aspect was itself a Blue Dragon? If the new aspect were a goblin, why wouldn't the blue dragons become Just Another Race, with other goblins occupying the niches that various blue dragons occupy today? If the new leader is not a blue dragon, why would the other blue dragons have anything to do with... anything anymore?

4LV · 02/11/09, 3:19 PM

Doublepost due to receiving a MySQL error.

Reported for deletion.

4LV · 02/11/09, 3:20 PM

Good question, hadn't thought about it that way.

I mean, were the flights constructed by the Titans and molded specifically for that task (life, magic, time, dreaming etcetera) and that task only? Is there some sort of genetics holding the purpose of the flight together? "Magic-Genes" would mean the new Aspect would most likely be a blue dragon. However if there is no such thing, and a non-dragon individual becomes the new Aspect of Magic in Azeroth, there is indeed little to nothing that should keep any blue dragon in service or even in respect of that person.

What then would be the role of the blue dragons, as they are as far as I have understood it far more sensitive to magic than other dragons. Is this because they are related to Malygos, or because they are related to Magic. Is the blue flight created with magic in mind, or was this just a coincidence since the first Aspect happened to be a Blue Dragon instead of a chipmunk? I am thinking that it might be a case of what came first, the egg or the chicken.

But for that matter, I think it's highly unlikely that a goblin picks up this cup

basto · 02/11/09, 3:20 PM

Originally Posted by Douglas

I have to ask this question: why are people thinking of "new Aspect of magic" as "new leader of the blue dragonflight"?

Do we have reason to believe that the blue dragons were servants of the aspect of magic for an reason other than that the Aspect was itself a Blue Dragon? If the new aspect were a goblin, why wouldn't the blue dragons become Just Another Race, with other goblins occupying the niches that various blue dragons occupy today? If the new leader is not a blue dragon, why would the other blue dragons have anything to do with... anything anymore?

I was thinking the exact same thing. I don't think all of the followers of the blue fight are just going to lay down their arms and since we killed Malygos. While it is confirmed that there were many that were compelled against their will by malygos I seriously doubt they all were. Personally I don't think the nexus war ended with the death of Malygos.

Edit*

Also someone correct me if I am way off base here. But I was always under the impression that the Titans created the dragon aspects but not necessarily the entire flight of dragons. I always thought that the flight were all the offspring of the aspect.

Douglas · 02/11/09, 3:33 PM

Originally Posted by 4LV

I mean, were the flights constructed by the Titans and molded specifically for that task (life, magic, time, dreaming etcetera) and that task only? Is there some sort of genetics holding the purpose of the flight together? "Magic-Genes" would mean the new Aspect would most likely be a blue dragon. However if there is no such thing, and a non-dragon individual becomes the new Aspect of Magic in Azeroth, there is indeed little to nothing that should keep any blue dragon in service or even in respect of that person.

Was thinking about this a little more.

It might be the case that dragons were chosen as the aspects due to having some kind of inherent, biological hive-like structure, where an Alpha exerts influence/control over the entire dragonflight due to some biological imperative. Maybe this was present in proto-drakes to a lesser degree and amplified. Maybe it was created. But there's a hive-like organizational structure going on to some degree, yes?

Now, let's say that Malygos dies and there's no aspect of magic, but Loken's beacon to the titans is received, and they're on their way back. And when they get here they see a big hole in the structure they've set up, and want to patch it quickly, but not with the previous species (it failed, after all!).

What other creatures, particularly in Northrend, are already sentient, already enemies of the Scourge, and have something like a hive structure already in their biological programming, that could be adapted toward this purpose?

Imagine if the new Aspect is a living Nerubian -- you know, the sort standing outside of Azjol-Nerub giving us daily quests. And all the roles currently being played by blue dragons are then filled by lesser castes of Nerubians and associated creatures, in an almost exact analog of how a dragonflight functions.

(I admit, this assumes that the Titans are hostile enough to the Scourge to want to set up opposition to 'em without being so hostile to 'em that they eliminate 'em themselves. If they are not hostile to the Lich King... well, there's another ready-made hive-like structure already in place!)

(Edit: Given similar assumptions, other candidates might be dragons that aren't one of the aspect-centric flights already. Nether dragons? Chromatic dragons? The Infinite Dragonflight?)

What then would be the role of the blue dragons, as they are as far as I have understood it far more sensitive to magic than other dragons. Is this because they are related to Malygos, or because they are related to Magic. Is the blue flight created with magic in mind, or was this just a coincidence since the first Aspect happened to be a Blue Dragon instead of a chipmunk? I am thinking that it might be a case of what came first, the egg or the chicken.

A related question that I think is important is, was the first generation of blue dragons any more sensitive to magic than anyone else? Or is this simply a matter of holding the job for so many millennia that they eventually got pretty good at it?

Edit:

Also someone correct me if I am way off base here. But I was always under the impression that the Titans created the dragon aspects but not necessarily the entire flight of dragons. I always thought that the flight were all the offspring of the aspect.

This matches my own understanding. Though this does make me wonder where those very first offspring came from... did the aspects breed with proto-dragons, so current dragons (or at least early ones) are basically a cross between an Aspect and a proto-dragon? Or was the first generation via parthenogenesis... but no, that doesn't make sense for male aspects. Or did the titans create a small clutch of dragons and imbue one of them, for starters?

Mman · 02/11/09, 3:45 PM

Originally Posted by Douglas

I have to ask this question: why are people thinking of "new Aspect of magic" as "new leader of the blue dragonflight"?

It all comes down to how the titans created the original aspects (and therefore the various flights). It is possible that the titans bestowed each flights with the power to do their particular unique job. Therefore that same power could be passed, theoretically, to any creature (through means unknown).

However, with the current lore we have for Titans and in general how the different flight act, I think it makes more sense that the flights were created with those powers innate in them. Sort of like they were genetically engineered to their particular aspect. So all blue dragons have power of magic and all red ones have power over life. The aspects were unique among their flight because they were the most powerful and because they controlled the rest of the flight. Because of this you cannot really unlink the flights from the aspect. The ability of the aspects to control their own flight is essential to their powers (and being an aspect).

basto · 02/11/09, 4:12 PM

Originally Posted by Douglas

This matches my own understanding. Though this does make me wonder where those very first offspring came from... did the aspects breed with proto-dragons, so current dragons (or at least early ones) are basically a cross between an Aspect and a proto-dragon? Or was the first generation via parthenogenesis... but no, that doesn't make sense for male aspects. Or did the titans create a small clutch of dragons and imbue one of them, for starters?

Ok so I misspoke. The Titans did not create the dragon aspects as they are all children of Galakrond but the titans empowered them to become aspects and protectors of the world.

You are making assumtions that dragons reporduce the same way humans do... however what if they reporduce asexually? Again this is wild speculation and all my lore knowledge is based off what I have gotten in game and in this thread (haven't read any of the books). I cannot find any mention of a dragon with more than one parent...

Bloo Driver · 02/11/09, 4:44 PM

Originally Posted by basto

Ok so I misspoke. The Titans did not create the dragon aspects as they are all children of Galakrond but the titans empowered them to become aspects and protectors of the world.

You are making assumtions that dragons reporduce the same way humans do... however what if they reporduce asexually? Again this is wild speculation and all my lore knowledge is based off what I have gotten in game and in this thread (haven't read any of the books). I cannot find any mention of a dragon with more than one parent...

There are many references to the aspects having consorts and mates, all of which point to the significance of the consort/mate. If dragons reproduced asexually, I'd be pretty shocked. While I can't think off the top of my head of any dragons who have had both the mother and father named, every bit of inference and evidence points to them still requiring both sexes to do so.

There are also several references to the proto-dragons as ancestors of the dragons (hence the name proto-dragon). The Yellow Dragon stable keeper at Crusader's Pinnacle mentions this right off. I seem to recall also that there was something that unequivocally stated that proto-dragons were what the Titans took and "improved on" to make the flights we see today, but now I can't find it again.

Douglas · 02/11/09, 4:59 PM

Originally Posted by Bloo Driver

There are many references to the aspects having consorts and mates, all of which point to the significance of the consort/mate. If dragons reproduced asexually, I'd be pretty shocked. While I can't think off the top of my head of any dragons who have had both the mother and father named, every bit of inference and evidence points to them still requiring both sexes to do so.

Elaborating upon this, we have references to female dragons laying eggs and other dragons hatching from those eggs. This in and of itself does not preclude asexual reproduction, but it does pretty much preclude exclusively asexual reproduction in the case where the only parent is male.

And we know that Onyxia and Nefarion are siblings, and are the children of Neltharion, don't we? So we know that in at least one case, at least two dragons have at least one male parent. (And I believe we also know that Insidion, Furywing, Rivendark, and Obsidia are part of "Deathwing's brood", but this is far from as-clear a statement as references to "father" and "sister", so let's ignore it for now.)

It may be that some cases of dragon reproduction are asexual, but I think we know enough to literally rule this out as their only mode of reproduction, and we also know that some Aspects (Neltharion, Nozdormu, and Malygos) are male, and that at least one (Neltharion) is both male and a parent.

Zerchi · 02/11/09, 5:20 PM

Originally Posted by Douglas

Elaborating upon this, we have references to female dragons laying eggs and other dragons hatching from those eggs. This in and of itself does not preclude asexual reproduction, but it does pretty much preclude exclusively asexual reproduction in the case where the only parent is male.

And we know that Onyxia and Nefarion are siblings, and are the children of Neltharion, don't we? So we know that in at least one case, at least two dragons have at least one male parent. (And I believe we also know that Insidion, Furywing, Rivendark, and Obsidia are part of "Deathwing's brood", but this is far from as-clear a statement as references to "father" and "sister", so let's ignore it for now.)

It may be that some cases of dragon reproduction are asexual, but I think we know enough to literally rule this out as their only mode of reproduction, and we also know that some Aspects (Neltharion, Nozdormu, and Malygos) are male, and that at least one (Neltharion) is both male and a parent.

Isn't Sintharia (Lady Sinestra) named as the mother of Nefarian and Onyxia in Day of the Dragon (haven't read it yet myself but someone mentioned her earlier in this thread I believe). And for some reason, I thought Krasus met his sire while time traveling but that may have just been an elder consort. But yeah, it's an interesting question about where the first consort came from.

Edit: Perhaps originally the aspects were identical when created and they pulled the asexual frog trick where a couple of them flipped from "female" to "male" (or vice versa), mated with each other and divided up the eggs then the whole red/blue/etc thing came later after they took upon their assigned roles. Titans certainly seem to like uniformity in their creations if what we see in Stormpeaks is any indication.

c4tuna · 02/11/09, 5:57 PM

Okay, while we're on the subject of Malygos and the runes, is it possible that they're a tool used by Yogg-Saron to control his subjects? I'm just asking because they don't appear on anyone, as far as I can tell, but Malygos and some other blue dragonflight members, and the Stormforged dwarves. Seems an odd thing to have in common between two otherwise unrelated groups.

Emeraude · 02/11/09, 6:11 PM

On Dragon Breeding:

Most of the Dragonflights stick to breeding within their own ranks. It isn't outright forbidden to breed outside your own flight, but it isn't exactly encouraged either(According to Sintharia who was flirting in a twisted way with Krasus in Night of the Dragon).

The dragons do go through the, ahem, physical part of mating, it's not like the egg is brought out by the female and then later fertilized. Sintharia was apparently burned/scarred for life after mating with Neltharion after he became Deathwing, and Deathwing's other consorts died.

The question about eggs is a curious one, during the Day of the Dragon @ Grim Batol, after Alexstrasza was freed, Deathwing attempted to steal her eggs. Alexstrasza's former prime consort Tyranastrasz was also in Grim Batol with her making the eggs(And was killed by Deathwing).

Based just off the Black Dragonflight's actions, I imagine it's possible to corrupt the eggs and/or make them of your own flight. During Day of the Dragon Krasus attempted to seek Malyagos' aid(Before he got eggs from the past, and while he was still in a lethargic state), and said that his Dragonqueen could provide him with eggs to help him repopulate his flight, to which Malyagos laughed.

It is a rather curious question though.

On Runic Magic:

I think you all might be reading a bit too much into it with any corruption. Rune Magic is nothing new, you see the Blue Fight using it, because it's a very very easy weapon for arcane beings to use. Sargeras used demonic runes to empower Illidan for instance, I'm sure there are other examples out there, just think about it.

We use runic magic every time we glyph one of our abilities for instance, or rather the Inscriber does, we just use a runic...powered...page.. >.>

Most runic magic is like, Rune->Empower the rune with x energy->Empowered Runic Spell.

It's not evil on it's own, it, like most magic, is all about how you use it.

Starfire · 02/11/09, 6:27 PM

Well, don't forget the Black Dragonflight has been attempting to engineer dragons to be superior. It does't necessarily mean Deathwing was stealing the eggs to turn them into Blacks, but perhaps to carry out some of the various experimentations. For instance, we know Nefarian was stealing Blues to create his Chromatics, but it doesn't appear he was converting them to Blacks (see Awbee).

But on the same token, we also have example of eggs being shifted to other flights too. Albeit by dark/necromancic magic. The Necromancers in Scholomance were breeding Plague Dragons using Black Dragon eggs. (Though, there are also Plagued Proto-Dragons).

On that note, there are Violet Proto-dragons. Perhaps evidence of the "other" flights.

Emeraude · 02/11/09, 6:40 PM

Originally Posted by Starfire

On that note, there are Violet Proto-dragons. Perhaps evidence of the "other" flights.

I'm not quite ready to accept the Violet Proto dragons as canonical. :P