I'd say that they're holding Kalec in reserve as the new leader of the blue flight once Malygos is dead and they're keeping him out of contact until after the fighting so that he's not influenced to act against the other aspects before it's too late. Speculation though.
Well, as far as the Yogg-Saron stuff is concerned, there were some hints here and there, prior to WotLK, that allowed enough people to predict that he / it would be included. Malygos was a good assumption too, though I didn't expect the story to arc in this particular manner. (It sort of came out of the blue - sorry, couldn't resist), but overall, it should be a pretty engaging story.
I don't think that there were any hints at Yogg-Saron or especially Malygos. I mean, maybe the whole "Forgotten One" thing in TFT was supposed to hint at Yogg-Saron, but it really wasn't much.
The Malygos thing in particular ties back to, imo, the failure to tie WotLK to the pre-existing lore very well at all. Malygos going nuts (or becoming not-nuts and then attacking everyone else) was supposed to have something to do with the Nether Dragons, right? Well, there's absolutely zero mention of that in WotLK. Likewise, as I said, I thought the potential Ethereal / Blue Dragon connection would be cool to see, but nothing is done with that. No real development of the Nerubians and their connections to the Qiraji, although I guess that's largely because Azjol-Nerub was removed as a zone, etc. And yes... where's Kalecgos and Tyrigosa?
But I haven't heard much of Dalaran and the Kirin Tor's actual involvement with the taking down of Malygos, while it HAS been revealed that Alexastrasza plays a rather large role, even being there for the actual fight.
That's something that's bugged me as well - okay, Dalaran is there, but what exactly are they doing? But I think this stuff just isn't implemented yet - the Crystalsong Forest quests will undoubtedly involve the Blue Dragons, and I wouldn't be surprised to see some flying mount content in Coldarra. First playing through WotLK, my biggest concern was that the Nexus War story would end up like the Zangarmarsh Naga plot in TBC - it's there for a few levels, but then you move on and there are no more naga and it's simply never mentioned again until you go back for Steamvaults (or The Oculus, in this case.) But thankfully, with Crystalsong Forest and Violet Hold, there won't be that huge plot gap.
Blizzard is probably going to take this content cycle farther above and beyond than anything they've done before.
Probably. I doubt Ulduar will be ready on release, yes, but it's going to be on the PTRs almost right away, I imagine. Then Azjol-Nerub, then Icecrown. I think the main thing is that Blizzard is probably being more realistic about their schedule now. They'll cut content or hold it back more easily to ensure that they can hit their release targets, and that it's not half-assed on that release *cough*SSC/TK*cough*.
I expect things to pick up substantially in WotLK as far as the story telling is concerned
Also, its important to realize that Blizzard has progressed the Burning Legion storyline. TBC was supposed to be about Illidan but ended with a Burning Legion boss encounter. We have seen that now Mal'Ganis is there in Northrend and I would not be surprised if WoTLK's last content patch also ends up being not Icecrown Citadel but something related to The Burning Legion, maybe something to do with Mal'Ganis and Varimathras.
Remember one of Mal'Ganis's quotes:
"You'll never defeat the Lich King without my forces! I'll have my revenge on him, and you!"
In some ways, TBC was a realization that even while the citizens of Azeroth may defeat Illidan, the main threat to the world from Burling Legion is just around the corner. And this theme, will carry forward into Wrath.
The Malygos thing in particular ties back to, imo, the failure to tie WotLK to the pre-existing lore very well at all. Malygos going nuts (or becoming not-nuts and then attacking everyone else) was supposed to have something to do with the Nether Dragons, right? Well, there's absolutely zero mention of that in WotLK. Likewise, as I said, I thought the potential Ethereal / Blue Dragon connection would be cool to see, but nothing is done with that. No real development of the Nerubians and their connections to the Qiraji, although I guess that's largely because Azjol-Nerub was removed as a zone, etc. And yes... where's Kalecgos and Tyrigosa?
I thought Malygos going nuts had to do with the fact that last time he was at his senses he saw the world being destroyed by users of Magic (attracting the Burning Legion). Now when he comes back to his senses he sees the use of Magic on Azeroth has increased even more and decides to takes matters into his own hand.
That's something that's bugged me as well - okay, Dalaran is there, but what exactly are they doing? But I think this stuff just isn't implemented yet - the Crystalsong Forest quests will undoubtedly involve the Blue Dragons, and I wouldn't be surprised to see some flying mount content in Coldarra. First playing through WotLK, my biggest concern was that the Nexus War story would end up like the Zangarmarsh Naga plot in TBC - it's there for a few levels, but then you move on and there are no more naga and it's simply never mentioned again until you go back for Steamvaults (or The Oculus, in this case.) But thankfully, with Crystalsong Forest and Violet Hold, there won't be that huge plot gap.
The last time I was in Crystalsong, it seemed very unfinished to me. So does Dalaran in some aspects.
I thought Malygos going nuts had to do with the fact that last time he was at his senses he saw the world being destroyed by users of Magic (attracting the Burning Legion). Now when he comes back to his senses he sees the use of Magic on Azeroth has increased even more and decides to takes matters into his own hand.
I never understood this "Magic is bad, it attracts the Legion!" thing. It may have been true the first time when Azshara and her friends opened a Portal for Sargeras but after that? No. Why? Because the Legion already knew of Azeroth's existance by then. Using less magic now is not going to change anything anything - except for making it worse by removing one source of power to actually defend Azeroth with.
I say, good riddance, Malygos. It was your fault for not stopping Azshara the first time around (he was sane back then still) and it's your fault now for trying to mess with the mortal races.
I never understood this "Magic is bad, it attracts the Legion!" thing. It may have been true the first time when Azshara and her friends opened a Portal for Sargeras but after that? No. Why? Because the Legion already knew of Azeroth's existance by then. Using less magic now is not going to change anything anything - except for making it worse by removing one source of power to actually defend Azeroth with.
I say, good riddance, Malygos. It was your fault for not stopping Azshara the first time around (he was sane back then still) and it's your fault now for trying to mess with the mortal races.
Arguably, magic in Azeroth is rampant to the point that everyone, from humans and elves to gnolls and quillboars, has access to it. This, combined with general ambition and competition for power, makes magic-users very attractive and plentiful targets for corruption and seduction by the Burning Legion. These magic-users are also often the minions that allow the most powerful of the Burning Legion to enter this world. If Malygos is successful, the Burning Legion would have fewer avenues of invasion, as they'd have a harder time finding people who could harness the local energies needed to enter Azeroth.
The Burning Legion still acts in great part through overambitious magic-users that it corrupts from its target.
The Burning Legion still acts in great part through overambitious magic-users that it corrupts from its target.
I'd rather stress the fact that magic is a and not the foothold of the Legion in Azeroth. They have shown they can corrupt people by promising them any sort of power, it doesn't have to be magical. They can just promise some random high ranking officer that he will be made King if he betrays his current King. No magic involved at all. It works in real life, so why not in Azeroth?
Also, learning how to use and control Magic (the good AND the bad) is part of the mortal races emancipation in my eyes. They dug their own graves with the first Invasion and they will eventually climb out from it themselves (Isn't that TBC's whole message? We kicked out the friggin Burning Legion out of Outlands ourselves. Where were the Dragons to help us? Kalec seems to be the exception here and not the rule. Where are the red dragons to counter the black dragons (ab)using the mortal races for their gains?).
I actually see ourselves fighting agains the Demons as equal allies with the Titans in a future expansion because I would not be surprised if the one of the reasons the Titans go cultivate some planets is to create races that are resilient against the Legion and would make good allies. But this part is obviously just speculation.
Like I said, I really have trouble seeing the point of Dragons and their Aspects. What do they do to help keep Azeroth in balance? Considering Deathwing and now Malygos being Aspects themselves, aren't they doing more harm than they do good? The Red seem to be the nice guys, no question, but would we need them if it wasn't for the fact that the enemy is also a Dragon (Aspect) himself?
Also, its important to realize that Blizzard has progressed the Burning Legion storyline. TBC was supposed to be about Illidan but ended with a Burning Legion boss encounter.
I think people in general got the wrong idea about The Burning Crusade, yes, Illidan is a major lore character, and obviously had his part to play in the grand scheme of things as the Lord of Outland. But in my opinion at least, the Burning Crusade was mainly about the Blood Elves, and their story. How things played out for them following the 3rd war, their road to Outland to find salvation, discovering that their king has gone mad, and worse aligned himself with the Burning Crusade, I didn't view Quel'Danas, as a bonus chapter to keep us occupied while WotLK was made ready, I viewed it as a Climax to the entire Burning Crusade story line, and redemption for the Blood Elves. There was far more focus on the Elves, what was happening to them, how they(some) ended up working for the Legion, and the finale at the Sunwell.
Not to take anything away from Illidan, obviously things wrapped up fairly nicely for him as well, Maiev got her revenge, and Akama's Deathsworm were freed, however it was still my opinion that Illidan for the most part was HIDING in his Black Temple against the onslaught of Alliance/Horde forces as well as the Legion itself. The Legion was always the bigger threat in the grand scheme of things, and the fact we had to go back to Azeroth to stop Kil'Jaeden from coming through to our world just speaks volumes of the difference in threat between the 2-Arch-villains. Keep in mind it was Kil'Jaeden in the first place who ordered Illidan to try and take down the Frozen Throne, everything about The Burning Crusade conflict started with and ended with The Legion, hell we even got to Outland because Kazzak reopened the portal.
In WotLK, I wouldn't read too much into Mal'Ganis surviving and fleeing back to the Legion. Mal'Ganis' appearance is about as noteworthy as Balnazzar's in WoW Classic, I really really doubt it'll go anywhere. The Legion as I said before in an earlier post in this thread, is non-existant in Northrend, there are very, very few demons, none of which are note-worthy outside of Mal'Ganis. Unlike with the Burning Crusade which you would have thought was about Illidan, and turned into a story about the Blood Elves as you went about questing, the center and focus of this expansion is most definitely on Arthas(Or should I simply say the Lich King). The Nexus War wraps up relatively early, it's not something that's going to be dragged out. The Scourge however IS Northrend, the Scourge is EVERYWHERE, there's no way you can ignore or not recognize the threat the Scourge brings to the lands. The only way I could see Arthas not being the final raid boss is if someone else were to claim Frostmourne after his death(Sylvanas?! Ok I'll stop my fangirlisms now). :P
My point simply being that unless we see quests that strongly hint there's more going on behind the scenes of the Scourge ranks, a flaw in the plague of undeath, or waning power in the Lich King itself due to some unforeseen reason, you can bank on Arthas/Ner'zhul being the final boss.
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I think it's merely incidental that TBC seemed to be "the Blood Elves' story". There were two main plot threads - the Illidari plot, and the Burning Legion plot - and it just so happened that the BEs were involved heavily in both. I'd also say that it's true that Illidan and Vashj were both given particularly short shrift in TBC's story - the latter having her activities wholly confined to one zone, and the former being largely "invisible" across the storyline in a way that Blizzard has admitted was a mistake. The Burning Legion were just kinda there are the TBC plot could've easily been resolved with Illidan's death, and some foreshadowing of further conflicts down the Legion down the line (keep in mind that TBC didn't realize the collapse of the Legion.) So it's less that the plot was about Blood Elves, but that the Blood Elves were the only faction which was meaningfully developed through all of TBC.
Also, its important to realize that Blizzard has progressed the Burning Legion storyline. TBC was supposed to be about Illidan but ended with a Burning Legion boss encounter. We have seen that now Mal'Ganis is there in Northrend and I would not be surprised if WoTLK's last content patch also ends up being not Icecrown Citadel but something related to The Burning Legion, maybe something to do with Mal'Ganis and Varimathras.
The Burning Crusade was named after the Burning Legion, and they were the villains in Hyjal and Sunwell, as well as (indirectly) in Tempest Keep. Illidan controlled some of SMV, and had surrogates in Zangarmarsh and Hellfire, whereas the legion controlled most of Netherstorm and had a strong presence in every other zone but Zangarmarsh.
Mal'ganis' line about not being able to defeat the Lich King without his forces leads to some interesting ideas for Icecrown.
Everytime I see her named mentioned now, I cringe. I remember the first time I wandered into Shadowmoon Valley and discovered "The Warden's Cage." I jumped in that hole and found the secret path to her prison and I was blown away. Wow. She looked so freakin' cool in full 3D. I think I just sat there looking through the bars for a good 20 minutes admiring how great they'd made her look, and wondering, "What will they do with her now??"
After the final lines of the Illidan Encounter; and Maeiv's disappearance... I'm just concerned. Given their track record, I really, really don't want to see yet another great hero become twisted, corrupted and/or insane & needing to be "dealt with" because of it.
As for Arthas; it really is difficult to get past the whole Ner'Zhul thing. I like to look at him and say, "Hey, it's Arthas." But he really doesn't demonstrate any shreds of humanity throughout what I've experienced so far. (The introduction cinematic is somewhat of an exception to this) When I was doing the Howling Fjord quest to enter the Realm of Spirits and discover the secret link between Vrykul/Humans, and I wandered up to Arthas, he said something about sensing Shaman magic (the magic used to enter the Realm of Spirits), and then goes on to say, "I was once a Shaman, too."
I was thinking to myself, "Uhh, what? No... You were a Paladin." before slapping my forehead and realising, "Oh right. It's Ner'Zhul talking." It's just so weird. You look at him and you see Arthas. But it seems all that remains is a physical shell for the Lich King.
I don't think Maiev would devolve into a villain, it's not who she was. Illidan was responsible for mass corruption, and the deaths of wardens, the death of Naishia, her hatred was entirely rational, and she never really crossed any line while chasing him. After Illidan is defeated, she feels a sense of emptiness, because that's what vengeance gets you in the end, nothing. I certainly am with you in hoping she recovers from it all.
Now Sylvanas on the other hand is a perfect example of somebody who's vengeance has made them cross line after line after line. She is the villain of the story, and we know that even if Arthas is killed that won't be enough for her, she's still Undead, there's no happiness or peace for her in that curse, after Arthas is dead, then what for her? She wouldn't have the emotional capability to even feel joythat she just killed her prey. >_> Or the appreciate the sadness afterwards of having nothing left. <_<
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Malfurion Stormrage even sighed at Tyrande, when Illidan goes to Outland and Maiev following him with rage. Here is what he said:
It's no use, Tyrande. She has become vengeance itself, bound forever to the hunt. I only pray that in her zeal, she doesn't cause even more havoc than Illidan.
It is a very high possibility to have Maiev back someday, possibly lost her mind with "hunt". As i stated, in WoW chronology all heroes do fall somehow, no matter how. That's what makes the storyline interesting for me.
Err, her hunt ended when she killed Illidan, and her zeal instantly dropped to a depressed level. :p
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"You either die a hero, or live long enough to see yourself become the villain" - Arthas "Two-Face" Menethil
I mean. Whoops.
I think the worst part of the whole Maiev - Illidan thing for me was, she really... didn't help. Like... her traps sucked and I was sorta left feeling as if we took out Illidan. We didn't get "in the way" so to speak. The immersion aspect really lacked there.
In terms of WotLK, I'm interested to see where things go with this Arthas / Ner'zhul deal. Is there no conscious part of Arthas left? is he for all matters of speaking, dead and gone forever, no remnant of who he is? This fusion... what exactly has it resulted in?
Originally Posted by Caniki
Hey guys, I heard that Blizzard puts out these things called "patches" that contain "content"
It's a possibility that breaking Ner'zhul's dominance may play some role in the Lich King's defeat. Though Arthas was the actor throughout WarCraft 3, it is entirely logical that Ner'zhul would be the senior partner. Ner'zhul was a powerful shaman before this all began, has only been made stronger through his various experiences since (in a purely instrumental sense - he hasn't enjoyed his part much), and it was he who chose, corrupted, and then summoned Arthas to him. Arthas is, in comparison, just a headstrong young kid.
All of which said, Arthas is obviously in there somewhere, and I fully expect we'll see him sometime, either in flashes or in a complete transformation at some point. (And at that point we'll likely learn whether we can expect some remnant of redemption - even if only in death - or if Arthas will confirm to us that he has turned completely and must be destroyed for the salvation of the world, etc.)
It would really, really kick ass if Arthas was fated to be some legendary hero; one of whom was destined to do great things, and it were within Ner'zhul's best intentions to have him killed. So like, when you kill Arthas, Ner'zhul exits his body and mocks the players, all like, "Fools! You've doomed yourselves!", and we get a glimpse of the regretful Arthas' moments of freedom before his death.
But probably not.
Still, it really is my longest standing question at this point. If Ner'zhul wasn't in control, what would Arthas do? What would he say? We can't blame all of his atrocities on Ner'Zhul - he committed them as personal acts of will.
Anyway, I'm repeating other peoples' speculation. I guess we'll just have to wait and see.
When I learned that we'd be killing Illidan Stormrage when TBC was announced/released, I was fairly saddened. He was (and probably always will be) my favourite character of the WarCraft story. (Noz, Kalec, Ronin falling behind) I joked to my guild that when we faced him, I'd sabotage the kill by taking off my shield and turning my back to him; simply because I didn't want to see him killed. With the picture being painted by the WotLK cinematic; I'm starting to feel the same sentiments for Arthas.
Actually, I think people were pretty surprised that Illidan was actually killed off, especially since he wasn't really much of a bad guy who could hypothetically be used later on in the story. It was only when people datamined the speech files in the 2.1 PTR that it became clear that, yes, Blizzard was going to kill off the best character in the Warcraft franchise.
Also, it's my understanding that Ner'zhul wasn't really such a bad guy either. He just got fucked up by Kil'Jaeden. So I think a "Ner'zhul evil, Arthas still redeemable" route would be kinda lame. I'm guessing he'll go down screaming and cursing.
I also thought Ner'zhul was also a victim of circumstance, however if you read the new novel Beyond the Dark Portal, it becomes increasing obvious throughout the book that Ner'zhul was a coward, and a self-centered fool. He could have spoken up before the 2nd war ever erupted, stopped the corruption from taking the Orcs, but he let Gul'dan and Kil'Jaeden have their way with them. During the Conflict Beyond the Dark Portal, again, all of his actions were to serve his own needs of escaping their dying world. Ner'zhul cared nothing for any of the Orcs, only himself, something which Kil'Jaeden felt happy to remind him of before he started tearing the old Shaman apart piece by piece. ^_^
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It is a very high possibility to have Maiev back someday, possibly lost her mind with "hunt". As i stated, in WoW chronology all heroes do fall somehow, no matter how. That's what makes the storyline interesting for me.
It's a matter of personal taste. I'm pretty tired of it as there is too much of it. It's the case even in other Blizzard games, but the Warcraft franchise seems to take it to absurd levels. It's not bad as a plot device as it gives more depth to the villains but not when it's used to this extent.
I think that of all the major lore villains in the Warcraft Universe, only 3 stand out as being outright villains, Gul'dan, the old gods and the Nathrezim. Even Archimonde, Kil'jaeden and the rest of the Eredar got retconned into being good guys who were corrupted by Sargeras.
I'm just looking at a list of major Warcraft villains. Sargeras, Deathwing, Arthas, Medivh (now good again), Illidan, Kael, Queen Azshara, Sylvanas and many others started as part of the good guys.
Queen Azshara was never a good guy. She was completely self centered and maniacal from the moment she was introduced. Not once throughout the entire WoA trilogy does she ever do anything for anyone but herself. I wouls say she is an excellent example of an original villian. She started less pure evil but as evil was the easiest route to attain what she wanted she took it.
Originally Posted by Zyla
Plus, my anus is painfree and still virginal!
Originally Posted by madsushi
Honestly, if you're any good, then you know about the changes as soon as they happen and you adjust. If you're not any good, Blacksen's already benched you by now, and so who cares.
Now Sylvanas on the other hand is a perfect example of somebody who's vengeance has made them cross line after line after line. She is the villain of the story, and we know that even if Arthas is killed that won't be enough for her, she's still Undead, there's no happiness or peace for her in that curse, after Arthas is dead, then what for her? She wouldn't have the emotional capability to even feel joythat she just killed her prey. >_> Or the appreciate the sadness afterwards of having nothing left. <_<
Actually, I think we saw a humane side of Sylvanas during the Lament of the Highborne event. True, she is driven by revenge against Arthas, but anybody in her position will be. Also, we know that the betryal the Horde will face will be from Varimathras. I personally don't think Blizzard will risk Sylvanas turning villian, I think many Horde players will cringe at that idea. Imagine the backlash from players if Malfurion ends up corrupted. Also, Blizzard has already done that with Kael.
But in case if something like that happens, it will involve the players rescuing her from the corruption. Something I think is possible, you rescure Sylvanas during the raid in Icecrown Citadel and she is there to finish Arthas off. Its important to realize that Sylvanas probably has the deepest connection of any Horde Leaders to the Alliance (The Windrunner sisters). I would actually like to see Alleria return in some way if Sylvanas is corrupted, because she is the only one that can convince the raid full of alliance players to rescue Sylvanas from the corruption.
In terms of WotLK, I'm interested to see where things go with this Arthas / Ner'zhul deal. Is there no conscious part of Arthas left? is he for all matters of speaking, dead and gone forever, no remnant of who he is? This fusion... what exactly has it resulted in?
I am hoping its just a fully bent on destruction Arthas we meet. If we could kill Kael off, we can do the same with Arthas.
All of which said, Arthas is obviously in there somewhere, and I fully expect we'll see him sometime, either in flashes or in a complete transformation at some point. (And at that point we'll likely learn whether we can expect some remnant of redemption - even if only in death - or if Arthas will confirm to us that he has turned completely and must be destroyed for the salvation of the world, etc.)
Well, the main way you can have someone like Arthas remember his "sane" days is through characters. Someone like Jaina, Muradin (Northrend event hints he is alive), maybe could let see a glimpse of the remanants of Arthas before he falls,
It's a matter of personal taste. I'm pretty tired of it as there is too much of it. It's the case even in other Blizzard games, but the Warcraft franchise seems to take it to absurd levels. It's not bad as a plot device as it gives more depth to the villains but not when it's used to this extent.
I think that of all the major lore villains in the Warcraft Universe, only 3 stand out as being outright villains, Gul'dan, the old gods and the Nathrezim. Even Archimonde, Kil'jaeden and the rest of the Eredar got retconned into being good guys who were corrupted by Sargeras.
I'm just looking at a list of major Warcraft villains. Sargeras, Deathwing, Arthas, Medivh (now good again), Illidan, Kael, Queen Azshara, Sylvanas and many others started as part of the good guys.
What makes Gul'dan different to (say) Kel'thuzad, or Illidan or Kael? The extent of their villainy varies, but being corrupted due to selfish desires is a pretty common thread amongst all of them.
It's hard to write interesting villains who don't have some past connection to the good guys, especially if they come from the "normal" races. Having a supernatural being of pure malevolent evil works in a story, but how does such a character plausibly develop in a (semi-) civilised society? Even if a backstory is never told, it's hard to assume that every action a person has performed since birth has been evil.
EDIT:
Muradin (Northrend event hints he is alive)
While it isn't explicitly stated (EDIT: where he is), it's comes as close as possible to doing so.
Last edited by Dancing Wu Li Master : 09/16/08 at 2:59 AM.
The flashback scene at Frostmourne Cavern in Dragonblight shows that he wasn't killed. He wakes up with amnesia and a bad headache and goes for a wander.
Magni will be pleased; considering the brutal death letter he recieved from Arthas before he returned home to kill his father.
The flashback scene at Frostmourne Cavern in Dragonblight shows that he wasn't killed. He wakes up with amnesia and a bad headache and goes for a wander.
An amnesiac Mountain Dwarf capable of becoming an Avatar was found in the Dragonblight is now leader of the Frost Dwarfs.
When I was doing the Howling Fjord quest to enter the Realm of Spirits and discover the secret link between Vrykul/Humans, and I wandered up to Arthas, he said something about sensing Shaman magic (the magic used to enter the Realm of Spirits), and then goes on to say, "I was once a Shaman, too."
Yay! Speaking as a total Orc fanboy, it's great to see that Blizzard hasn't forgotten that Ner'zhul's in that armor as well. I was getting worried. . . .
Originally Posted by Liebestod
Actually, I think people were pretty surprised that Illidan was actually killed off, especially since he wasn't really much of a bad guy who could hypothetically be used later on in the story. It was only when people datamined the speech files in the 2.1 PTR that it became clear that, yes, Blizzard was going to kill off the best character in the Warcraft franchise.
Also, to be fair, HOW many people who've "died" in Warcraft have come back? Mal'ganis, Magtheridon, Muradin Bronzebeard, the entire cast of Naxx . .
09/15/08, 8:29 AM
