That's actually a good point. What was his reason for attacking Shattrath City? I really need to read through that Shattrath introductory quest again. Was he just trying to conquer all of Outland, or did he have something to gain by destroying/overthrowing Shattrath?
And all those lives are on Maiev's/Tyrande's/the leaders of the Horde and Alliances' hands. We decided to storm BT and kill Illidan. Screw the fact that he could have aided us. Screw the fact that this one elf almost destroyed the Lich King by himself. Screw the fact that his aid could save lives. Screw the fact that it was an entirely pointless battle.
We wanted revenge for what was essentially a 10,000 year old grudge, steal some of Illidan's personal stuff (see: [Memento of Tyrande] ), and some Broken draenei that we really don't give a damn about. We're not morally or ethically better than Illidan is.
You're viewing Illidan's actions in Outland a bit too favorably.
Let's look at what he actually has done:
Vashj, his most trusted ally, is siphoning the water out of Zangarmarsh and throwing it into the Twisting Nether so that the Naga control the only water in Outland.
Kael, while technically betraying Illidan, is nonetheless blowing the fuck out of Netherstorm. I feel safe in assuming that Illidan approves of this, even if he doesn't know that Kael is attempting to summon Kil'jaedan.
Illidan does, however, have legions of Blood Elves (Crimson Sigil), Demons (Illidari), and bloodthirsty Ashtongue Broken (only the Deathsword were with Akama). He's trying to consolidate power in Shadowmoon Valley, his Naga control Zangarmarsh, and "his" Blood Elf control Netherstorm. He has legions of Fel Orcs actively trying to destroy both Alliance and Horde bases in Hellfire. He's enslaved almost all the remaining Broken in Outland, and would likely move against Shattrath soon.
Keep in mind that the Scryers exist because they defected from an army nominally loyal to Illidan (Kael's Blood Elves) and were poised to level Shattrath to the ground before they 'saw the light'.
Illidan is far from just 'hiding in his temple', and poses a great risk to Azerothian holdings in Outland.
Hell, a Naaru personally leads the attack on Black Temple (X'iri?).
Edit: Beaten by 30 minutes. I apparently don't refresh enough.
Remember Malfurion describing Illidan, way back before BC? He said that Illidan had been brooding atop Black Temple; driven insane after his battle with Arthas. In his own mind, Illidan had won the fight against Arthas.
If Illidan truly believed that he had won the fight against Arthas; then in his own mind at least, he would have appeased Kil'Jaeden's demands and as such; would have no reason to live in fear.
He doesn't exactly come across as scared when you encounter him. He's standing in the open, confidently welcoming anyone to engage him.
The Night Elves caused irreparable damage to the world during the Great Sundering. Why aren't we butchering every single night elf in retaliation? Chop down the World Tree and turn it into kindling?
You're attributing the actions of a group of night elves, themselves no different than Illidan, to the entire race. What Azshara did to call the Legion into Azeroth was done for her personal gain. Illidan trying to destroy the Lich King would have been for his personal gain. If either succeeded, I'm sure Azeroth would have been destroyed or wound up a floating wreckage like Draenor. Though, if you think about it, we are killing all the night elves responsible for the Great Sundering with our continued aggression against the Satyrs and the Naga.
I also wouldn't say one way or the other if Illidan would have just sat idly by in the Black Temple while we mopped up the Legion all around Outland. It would surprise me if, once he was safe in Outland and we let him be, that he would just hang out and brood about how he'll never get with Tyrande. Do you think that he'd just make peace with everyone else living in Outland and retire his army of Fel Orcs? Or, once we're gone, do you think he'd finish the job and bring the rest of Outland under his control? It didn't seem to take long before he took the Broken from companions in liberating the Black Temple to using them as slaves to excavate artifacts in Hellfire Peninsula.
The interesting part of all lore in the Warcraft series is that no actor (as in plot character) is not inherently good or evil. By inspecting their motives and background we stumble on the basics of moral philosophy. I wouldn't go as far as going to pursue an active discussion about morality in a thread in which it would be a major digression, however I concede that such a discussion might be somewhat interesting. Yet, I feel like I have to say this much: no character is "evil", because it is hard to define.
Was Kel'Thuzad evil, when he literally saved Arthas' life in TFT when he is attacked by Sylvanas? Given that he was acting for an "evil" cause, wouldn't someone we'd naturally perceive as "evil" left him there to die and just tried to supplant him? Even if that would have been impossible plotwise when looking back to it, maybe there still was an ulterior motive for Kel'Thuzad to intervene. Or maybe he had no alternative, leaving him (Arthas) to die would have marked an end to the Scourge: even then, it could have been considered an act of loyalty (or even altruism?) towards his faction, the Scourge or his master, the Lich King Ner'zhul. Was that an act of free will and thus "good" in its own way, or was it just mindless slavery? A being as powerful as him still retains some if not most of his conscience. But he could have gone rogue and start to amass his army of undeads. After all, that is what happened: Arthas went to Northrend, leaving Kel'Thuzad as his lieutenant in Lordaeron, doing the task which was given to him. Whether he was acting on his own or was serving the Lich King could have had little effect in the time that was WoW pre Naxxramas...
Either way, I'm sure that characters that were just "I'm badass because I have to be" would have been, just like in the orc comic posted by someone, boring. When you can delve into the histories behind characters even this much proves that the guys creating the lore in Warcraft are not amateurs: even if at first glance everything might seem shallow, it's a lot more intriguing when taking a closer look. Or so I'd say.
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Going back on topic, it seems that they've implemented a major plot twist upcoming in WoTLK.
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It seems that once players have assaulted the Wrath Gate, the Forsaken intervene and launch an offensive towards everyone by unleashing the new plague. The result of it is devastating, and it leads to an interesting plot twist: Saurfang the Younger dies. Now, Saurfang senior is obviously pissed off, but what is even more intriguing is that a new grand apothecary (Putress something) has allied with Varimathras and are trying to overthrow the Forsaken.
This leads to Thrall himself calling upon players to join him in a war against Undercity, to kill Putress and Varimathras. The quest line is not completely implemented, but will be in the next build. Until that, wowhead knows this much: [FIX LEVEL] Darkness Stirs - Quest - World of Warcraft
Is the spoiler tag needed here, if this thread has spoiler in the title?
I also wouldn't say one way or the other if Illidan would have just sat idly by in the Black Temple while we mopped up the Legion all around Outland. It would surprise me if, once he was safe in Outland and we let him be, that he would just hang out and brood about how he'll never get with Tyrande. Do you think that he'd just make peace with everyone else living in Outland and retire his army of Fel Orcs? Or, once we're gone, do you think he'd finish the job and bring the rest of Outland under his control? It didn't seem to take long before he took the Broken from companions in liberating the Black Temple to using them as slaves to excavate artifacts in Hellfire Peninsula.
He really doesn't have a choice in the matter. We killed Magtheridon before Illidan died, there is no more supply of fel blood from Magtheridon to create the Fel orcs (this is the whole reason why we released Mags only to kill him).
Originally Posted by Dancing Wu Li Master
We're going after Malygos with the support of the other Dragonflights, who were attacked by Malygos too. Desparate times call for desparate measures and all.
Illidan does want us dead. He did attack Shattrath (and Tempest Keep), home of the strongest anti-Legion group around) without any provocation. That's hardly the act of someone who is searching for allies against a common foe.
His forces control large sections of Hellfire, Zangarmarsh and Shadowmoon; he's hardly hiding when he's got more territory in Outland than anybody else (and had even more until Kael defected). There's nothing in game to suggest that leaving him alone is going to cause him to mellow out. He's insane, aggressive, and has a large power-base at his disposal which is is quite willing to use to serve his own ends, regardless of the greater consequences.
The attack against Black Temple is explicitly described as a counter-attack after the attempted Shattrath raid. We're there with the support and blessing of the Naaru, which strongly implies that we're on the side of Good.
The Malygos killing part is a major "lol wut" point for me. In the lore, it is stated that the dragonflights do not kill Deathwing because he is an aspect and that his death has ramifications for the greater world. Yet in the same breath, the dragonflights are all gung ho about killing Malygos? Isn't anything going to happen to the world? What is the point of being an Aspect if you aren't even linked into the world?
As for Illidan, let me make a timeline. At the point at which we clear the T5 instances (i.e. TK Kael and Vashj are dead), Hellfire and Zangarmarsh are cleared from Illidan's infestation (because you supposedly cleared BF/Ramparts/Magtheridon's Lair, and shut down Illidan's fel blood supply, and Zangarmarsh is not being drained anymore). Shadowmoon Valley is not Illidan's personal domain: large sections of it are controlled by the Legion (Legion Point, Deathforge, Invasion Point: Cataclysm), controlled by undead crazies (arrakoa), controlled by us (Wildhammer Stronghold, Shadowmoon Village or w/e the Horde base is called) and various other ridiculously mutated wildlife and random giants. The only bases Illidan has are the Path of Glory (which are really Kael's troops, and shouldn't be counted as Illidari troops), Black Temple, Illidari Point, and the Ruins.
Why exactly should I see this as a problem? Fine, Illidan has bases. So do we. So does the Legion. At the point at which T5 is cleared, we have control of the vast majority of Outland. Heck, at this point, the number of Legion bases (every single area marked as a Forge Base or Invasion Point) way outnumbers the number of Illidari bases (3, maybe 4 if you want to get technical).
So why are we storming BT when Illidan is contained in his personal hellhole and we have better things to do, like stopping the Burning Legion, which has already devastated Azeroth so many times?
Because Illidan was a crazy, millenium old, immensly powerful psychopath bent on conquering, ruling and probably enslaving all of outland. Wether this was a very tactical move is questionable (since illidan poses little threat to azeroth, or atelast way less than the lich king), but, really, it's been debated to death.
"Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from malice."
- Clark's Law
So why are we storming BT when Illidan is contained in his personal hellhole and we have better things to do, like stopping the Burning Legion, which has already devastated Azeroth so many times?
Vengeance. In the end, the assault on BT was something conducted by the Naaru as a counterattack for the attack on Shattrath... Also players are helping Akama and Maiev who have had a long feud with him. Given that vengeance itself has little if no tactical relevance the whole thing pertains more to a "let's kill of the bad guys to introduce new ones". Plotwise, it makes sense that Outland is secured for good, and we could focus on Azeroth.
Yea, I always hated that TBC saw Illidan cross the line from "decent guy who's a bit too pragmatic" to "bloodthirsty warlord because Blizzard needs a reason for why 25-man raids want to kill him." So what do they do? Have him try to conquer Outland for some reason. Enslave the Broken tribes he commands. Be an all-around jerk, although he's not involved enough for the plot for this to be driven home.
The only bases Illidan has are the Path of Glory (which are really Kael's troops, and shouldn't be counted as Illidari troops), Black Temple, Illidari Point, and the Ruins.
He's also got the Netherwing forces
So why are we storming BT when Illidan is contained in his personal hellhole and we have better things to do, like stopping the Burning Legion, which has already devastated Azeroth so many times?
To finish the job. He's weakened due to numerous defeats, and leaving him alone would allow him to rebuild.
Yea, I always hated that TBC saw Illidan cross the line from "decent guy who's a bit too pragmatic" to "bloodthirsty warlord because Blizzard needs a reason for why 25-man raids want to kill him." So what do they do? Have him try to conquer Outland for some reason. Enslave the Broken tribes he commands. Be an all-around jerk, although he's not involved enough for the plot for this to be driven home.
He's not a bloodthirsty warlord, he's a paranoid, terrified psycho trying desperately to consolidate enough power to fight off the legion, who's now gunning for his hide. At the end of FT, he's scared s***less at the thought of Kil'Jaeden coming after him, so he needs power. As much of it as he can grab. Of course, he's an idiot about this and decides to pick a fight with the Naruu (leading to the Scryers defecting). I actually thought it was a logical progression (although I admit they certainly could have done more to show what was going with him.
As an aside, if anyone here is going to Blizzcon, could you track Metzen down and get an official answer once and for all as to what the Naga were doing in Zangarmarsh?
I recognise that it is a fantasy world but surely one of the definitions of a hero is that they don't die of old age but rather a true hero goes down fighting to save others and a fallen hero becomes corrupted and must eventually be "dealt with". You could probably write a thesis on the definition of heroism and its effect on society if you wanted...
As an aside when I originally read your post I couldn't remember writing it myself since we have such similar forum names!
I've played lots of fantasy games and read quite a bit of fantasy novels. It's not common, but it doesn't detract from the heroism displayed by the character. Some do retire/die of old age and pass their power and responsibility on to a chosen heir. Think somebody like Yoda.
How many dragons have to go insane or become otherwise corrupted before it's ok for us to kill one?
Can't the same argument Malygos makes about the mortal races' use of magic, that it renders us unacceptably susceptible to corruption, be leveled against the dragonflights and the powers they wield? How many Onyxias, Nightbanes and Felmysts have to attack us before we get the message that the dragonflights are as vulnerable to corruption as we are, but are far more dangerous? In the beginning the aspects were guardians of Azeroth or whatever, but the lore is teaching us once again that nothing in the world of warcraft is sacrosanct and pure.
How many dragons have to go insane or become otherwise corrupted before it's ok for us to kill one?
Can't the same argument Malygos makes about the mortal races' use of magic, that it renders us unacceptably susceptible to corruption, be leveled against the dragonflights and the powers they wield? How many Onyxias, Nightbanes and Felmysts have to attack us before we get the message that the dragonflights are as vulnerable to corruption as we are, but are far more dangerous? In the beginning the aspects were guardians of Azeroth or whatever, but the lore is teaching us once again that nothing in the world of warcraft is sacrosanct and pure.
The fact that Sargeras himself was corrupted is proof enough. It's easy to write "so and so falls into corruption and now we have to fight him".
Wouldn't you agree that is much simpler than creating entirely new characters and story arks? I've always thought of WoW lore as shallow.
It should be noted that Outlands is also viewed as the stepping stone to an invasion on Azeroth.
Remember, we did not know about the Sunwell. We know Arthas is there, we can probably presume Queen Azshara is somewhere. But we also know Arthas' powers wane in the Plaguelands -- the Forsaken have defected.
Suddenly, Dark Portal is open and all of a sudden there is a stepping stone for invasion to Azeroth. If any of you have ever played Risk or Risk II, think of Outlands as Iceland/Greenland. It's basically the toe-hold you need for an invasion of North America from Europe.
Again, remember, the reason for the Horde and Alliance to work together was to attack Legion forces. Arthas isn't nearly a menace as another Legion invasion.
I think the last point about Akama is the significant motivation to stop Illidan. With Kael and Vashj, the motivation was a bit more direct; stop the syphoning of Zangamarsh and stop Kael from...well, being really naughty. Illidan is, as stated, not really doing anything active in SMV.
However, he has enslaved a whole race of people. A race who is very directly opposed to the legion and has a very specific connection to the Draenei. To me, Illidan's death is somewhat analogous to the Hero of the Maghar storyline, except for the Draenei. Velen can't allow them to be enslaved, and the PCs shouldn't allow this either.
I do agree that this wasn't dealt with so well in the questlines, but I thought the overall questline for SMV and Illidan's role in it was handled pretty well, and I hope long questlines dealing with the lore like the SMV/BT attunement will still exist (without the attunement, of course).
Has there been any further development of King Wrynn in the beta? I recall a blue post about something nefarious happening with him but nothing else. He was always a very interesting character to me.
Can we seriously get back on topic of being a thread about Lore in Wrath and not about personal views of why raiders are killing bad NPCs in previous expansions?
Has there been any further development of King Wrynn in the beta? I recall a blue post about something nefarious happening with him but nothing else. He was always a very interesting character to me.
He's back in Stormwind and is going to be a 'badass', he's also kicked out Onyxia/Lady Prestor and is the one responsible for the big Alliance build up in Northrend. They're also giving him another new model again that should show up in 1-2 patches from now.
He's back in Stormwind and is going to be a 'badass', he's also kicked out Onyxia/Lady Prestor and is the one responsible for the big Alliance build up in Northrend. They're also giving him another new model again that should show up in 1-2 patches from now.
Something about the blue post gave me the impression they'll be making a bad guy out of him as well. IIRC ghostcrawler said something along the lines of "he's turning into something... else". I should dig through a blue post archive and see if I can find the exact reference. It was enticing.
He's back in Stormwind and is going to be a 'badass', he's also kicked out Onyxia/Lady Prestor and is the one responsible for the big Alliance build up in Northrend. They're also giving him another new model again that should show up in 1-2 patches from now.
Is there any story at all about him escaping the Defias/black dragonflight? Would be nice to close a "questline" we started Alliance-side on release day.
Is there any story at all about him escaping the Defias/black dragonflight? Would be nice to close a "questline" we started Alliance-side on release day.
Nothing like that is implemented at the moment, although that would be cool.
There's a comic book series about his adventures. You're supposed to buy that.. like the Ashbringer stuff, I guess.
There are a few character who so far seem highly underutilized in the WotLK story:
King Varian Wrynn and Vareesa Windrunner - If the Alliance-side Wrath Gate quest is comparable to the Horde's, I can see them becoming involved
The Kirin'Tor in general - Crystalsong is unfinished, but right now it doesn't seem like Dalaran or anyone in it are really doing anything important.
Sylvanas Windrunner - Wrath gate event, I guess.
Kalecgos and Tyrigosa - Would be nice to see them at least mentioned with the whole Nexus War thing going on, but... I'm doubtful that it'll happen.
I was also hoping that the Grizzly Hills Arugal chain would bring the Scythe of Elune story back, but I guess that's not going to happen.
09/16/08, 11:28 PM
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