I'm wondering this too. I've always been a little disappointed that 5 people just waltzed in and killed him so quickly in Azjul-Nerub. He was one of my favorite WCIII characters and deserves some solid raid-encounter attention. I'm looking forward to learning how he returned. And I'm glad to see him as a final boss for a tier.

Another interesting quote: I'd say it'd rather be Saurfang who will put Garrosh in his place or even kill him, under the premise of "Never again!", than Thrall, who has (understandable) scruples to get rid of his late friend's son.

This is also problematic because Saurfang's cleave would also kill Thrall... leaving Saurfang to lead the Horde!

While Saurfang jokes are mostly funny, I don't think they fit into a serious discussion about lore.

I'm really interested in seeing where Blizzard goes with this, because from a writing perspective, it feels like a corner. If Thrall snaps and kills Garrosh (or if Saurfang does it for him, as he promised) then the Horde returns to the status quo, which Blizzard obviously does not want. If Garrosh makes good on all his huffnpuff, he'll kill Thrall and take the mantle of Warchief for himself... but then opening up all kinds of issues of whether or not the Horde actually holds together without Thrall, much less becoming an evil organization bent on roasting the world in endless war.

Garrosh is being set up to oppose Thrall, but he's not being set up with any support structure behind him. It's not like Magatha Grimtotem or some upstart Trolls/Undead are rallying behind Garrosh and saying "yeah, he's right, we should go on the damn warpath man" -- if Garrosh were to break off and do his own thing, it would just be Rend Blackhand all over again.

This makes me think that Garrosh is being set-up to be the thing that pushes Thrall over the edge, and makes Thrall realize that war with the Alliance is the only way. Thrall returns to his position as unchallenged leader of the Horde, but now wants a piece of Varian to put on his mantle. So Blizzard puts the War back in Warcraft, and we go into the Maelstrom expecting to fight both the Naga and the opposing faction at every possible turn.

Or, alternatively, Garrosh is the one who sends Varian over the edge, leading to a war. But this would leave the Alliance in a strange position. Already we have Jaina pretty much opposing him at every step. I suspect Tyrande is pretty firmly on Jaina's side of this, and Velen too (assuming he cares). Basically.. there seems potential for a serious split in the Alliance, with the Kalimdor part (Theramore, Darnassus, possibly Exodar) preferring some kind of peace with the Orcs and Tauren, and the Eastern Kingdoms part (Stormwind, Blackrock-besieged Ironforge) more likely to support action against the Orcs, Undead, and Blood Elves.

I have no idea where you get the notion that there could be a serious split in the Alliance. The Alliance has shown none of the inner-tension that the current Horde is displaying with it's Forsaken allies and the Thrall/Garrosh power struggle. If anything the Alliance is stronger then it has ever been with Varian at it's forefront, and Varian has remained as patient as he can be under the circumstances(Speaking his mind at the Undercity not withstanding). Stormwind was not the only military power of the Alliance at the Wrathgate, and try as Jaina might, we all know that her personal feelings toward Thrall are clouding her judgment to the threat the Horde holds to the Alliance as a whole. If the common Orcs of Ogrimmar have picked up on Thrall and Jaina's friendship, it stands to reason that Varian has as well. The Night Elves would never support the Horde, remember that they still dispute the Horde's claim for the forests in Ashenvale/Felwood, and err if Chris Metzen ever remembers he invented a new Alliance race for BC maybe we'll find out where their heads are at as well. >.>

Keep in mind that Varian and Thrall both agreed to show up at this tournament. Varian reluctantly agreed to it for Tirion's support on any assault on Icecrown. Garrosh from the start dismissed Tirion, so you can see where their heads are at from that. Ironically Garrosh's small line also reveals why Varian must respond and can't back down to Garrosh's taunts/insults, "Pah! That was a show of strength worthy of a leader." As the leader of Stormwind, Varian cannot show weakness and bow down to the Orcs or ignore their insults, to do so would only strengthen the idea that the Humans are weak and that the Horde can lay siege to the Alliance. A show of strength goes a long way.

But that has everything to do with the fact that until now, none of the Alliance leadership had any character to speak of. Until Varian was reintroduced, what did the Alliance have to work with?

Stormwind was being run by Katrana Prestor in all but name. Magni has recently received a bit of additional play with his appearance in Northrend, but aside from that, Magni, Tyrande, and Mekkatorque were just custom skins and a bit of bonus audio. Like you said, Velen's only real relevance was in the Burning Crusade. Up until now, the Alliance hasn't really had any leader to call their own -- so it's not a matter of the Alliance being strong because there's no overt strife between the faction, it's a matter of no one showing any strife, or anything at all for that matter.

The difference on the Horde side is that we have two important lore character as racial leaders in the forms of Thrall and Sylvanas. Cairne and Vol'jin are window dressing, and I would argue that the winner of the recent Creative Writing contest did a better job of characterizing Lor'themar Theron as leader of the Kael-free Blood Elves than Blizzard ever intends to.

I don't think there's any possibility of a dramatic fracturing in the factions, if only because it would be too hard to implement gameplay-wise. Even with the strain the Horde has been put under since the Wrathgate, I think they will come out of this resolute... though exactly what Sylvanas plans to do once Arthas is dead is anyone's guess.

I've been thinking about this, and as portrayed in the Arthas novel, the relationship between Jaina and Arthas ran very deep for both of them. And I believe that Jaina has still not given up hope on redeeming Arthas. It could very well be that in our fight against Arthas, she'll be caught in the crossfire near the end trying to save him while the rest of us (with the help of other powerful NPCs like Thrall, Garrosh, Sylvanas, Tirion, Varian etc) move in for the kill resulting in her death. That could very well be the catalyst that both the factions need to throw them over the edge going into the next expansion.

And that's the crux of the matter. You have to remember that, in terms of gameplay, Varian is a strictly secondary character. He gets on the throne with WotLK starting, but he (as a NPC in Stormwind) was easily written as some regent (Bolvar) until he arrived back. There's very little effort, when dealing with the game world (as opposed to the lore world), to put back a regent for the few quests involving him. Consider the efforts at making consistent the fact that Thrall is dead in Horde side (he even appears back in BC at home, and you get a lot of discussions. Varian is only notable for the Wrathgate scenario, and that's all)

Which leads to the possible (if not probable) path of war: We've focused about someone offing Garrosh, because we dislike him most (at least Varian has good reasons to be so angry). But that might not be his role. His role might be simply to set Varian for the fall.

Imagine the following scenario. The usual suspects are all there. Garrosh /taunt Varian enough. There's no enough strong neutrals, or maybe Varian has already laid down the smack ("any mage that messes with me again is a traitor, and will be dealt with as a traitor"), so Thrall has to step in. Varian won't accept that, and turns against Thrall. And Thrall... kills Varian.

At this point, the leader of the Horde has killed the leader of the Alliance. In clear circumstances that show he's defending his own, even if they're warmongers. The "peaceniks" of the Alliance are against the wall : they cannot advocate leaving the Horde alone. You are now against the Horde, or for the Horde. No middle ground. Can Jaina throw her fate in the Horde? Because whomever takes over will not hear about it. The Horde will have to pay, and if you're not helping, you're next (and the SI-7 assassins might be first). Maybe Jaina would, but will Theramore follow? Will she accept an inevitable civil war among her people to join the Horde? No way.

(of course, she'll try to keep secret back channels for dialog. Good stuff, plenty of things to do there as players. But as far as the official position is, she will have to end in her father's shoes)

This isn't entirely the case, it's clear that most of the (Orc) commanders in Northrend fully support the way Garrosh would handle things: They have no interest in neutrality or a truce with the Alliance, they instead would attack the Alliance on sight. The Taunka are also dealing with the Alliance in this manner, as is pretty clear from quest lines in the Grizzly Hills.

Outside of Saurfang, there are only two examples of Orcs in Northrend who would apply Thrall's philosophy to their commands. One would be Gorgonna, who only gets in power due to our interference, before that Conquest Hold falls under the command of Conqueror Krenna, who would definitely agree more with Garrosh. The other example is Boktar Bloodfury: He gets information on Brann Bronzebeard being in the Storm Peaks, the person this information came from was Scout Vor'takh, who was only interested in Brann because he's family of King Magni, and wanted to take him prisoner to be able to pressurize Magni. Boktar on the other hand says "That is not the way of the Horde I remember" (Well, something to that effect, can't find the exact quote), and instead sends you on your way to help Brann find his way into Ulduar.

So Garrosh certainly has support, though Thrall most likely has more support from the current leaders of the Horde.

Garrosh is the leader of the Warsong Offensive and the Horde Expedition on the continent, so it's not surprising he would have chosen leaders loyal to his way of thinking for positions of power in Northrend. Certainly he has his supporters, but the attitude of the Orc commanders in Northrend does not necessarily imply that most of the Orcs in general largely share his views. It would have been incredibly unlikely for him to give positions of power to people who share Thrall's way of thinking.

Exactly. However much she likes Thrall, her people come first to her. She has respect for him and knows that in the long term, it's best to have good connections to the Orcs, but if there was the theoretical situation where she had to kill Thrall to ensure peace at least for Theramore, she would certainly do it.

In the more realistic setting of all-out war between the Alliance and the Horde, she would side with the Alliance, but still have secret information exchange with Thrall, if only to secure the Durotar/Theramore borders.

Speaking of which, an actual war would be desastrous for any smaller outposts of either faction, probably not the fortified Theramore as much, but e.g. Brackenwall would easily fall to any Theramore force Jaina can't control, the Dwarven excavations in the Barrens and Mulgore would be obliterated, same as Southshore and Refuge Pointe in northern Eastern Kingdoms. Roughly said, the Horde would control most of Kalimdor save the northwestern, NElf/Draenei controlled zones, while the Alliance would control most of EK save everything north of the Wetlands.
Summed up, a lot of people in non-fortified outposts would die early on in battles initiated by ruthless troop commanders looking for "heroic victories".
While realistic, this would probably be too brutal for a PG-12 game.
Unless, of course, those small outposts in the middle of enemy territory, and the "intertwined" settlements in Outland/Northrend ("1-2 per zone and faction") are ignored in that conflict, or evacuated in time.

We already have Sub-factions on the Horde side. BE/Forsaken players only start out at Neutral with the rest of Horde and vice-versa. Thrall is probably the only reason the Horde exists as it is today. Most Horde players I know even though not Orcs care more about Thrall than their respective faction leaders. I don't think Blizzard wants to split the Horde up or even the Alliance for that matter.

One possible scenario is that Saurfang the Younger and Bolvar respectively in some form make both factions see that their combine might be needed for Arthas, even if it is through an encounter in Icecrown.

Theramore is, between the fortifications, the Marines and probably two extremely powerful magic users, not worth the manpower to take. Doesn't mean stupid berserker orcs wouldn't try, but the results won't be good.

The easiest natural border for the Alliance in the Eastern Kingdoms is the Wetlands and the Thandol Span. But Arathi is reasonably defensible as well. March legions across the span, retake the wall, exterminate Hammerfall. There's even a logical reason to do this. It keeps the Horde from being able to build up directly on the Thandol Span. Rebuild Stromgarde as an added fortification along with the wall. Southshore is hopeless but the whole Foothill region would probably become the war front in the EK.

Honestly, the most logical end to this plot thread is the death of Garrosh at the hands of Varian.

Blizzard is not going to kill Varian, the hero of the comic book series and the newly introduced "leader of the Alliance" and there's no way in hell they're going to kill Thrall, who is by far the most popular "good guy" in the Warcraft universe. However, if they want to create a situation in which Thrall will let his passion get the best of him and cause all-out war with the Alliance, while still allowing him to retain his authority in the horde and removing Garrosh from the picture, they're going to set up a situation in which Varian kills Garrosh. They've been building the tensions between Garrosh and Varian this entire expansion, so we know that at some point it's going to come to blows and a neutral mage won't just conveniently be around. When Varian kills Garrosh, Thrall will get pissed, as Thrall will see it as the young misguided son of his late friend who sacrificed his life to free the horde from the demons being struck down in his prime by a war-mongering jerk. If anything would put Thrall on the war path, it would be that. With Thrall himself wanting Varian dead, Jaina will no longer have any ground to stand on, and since both Thrall and Varian could be construed as directly wishing harm on the opposite faction, there won't be any opposition to a war on either side, as both factions will feel like they have to fight to defend themselves.

I think Thrall might be a target actually, just for the amount of disruption it would cause to the actual player base. Killing off Garrosh is far too safe a way to "end" this, I imagine even the folks who liked him from TBC and the start of WotLK are annoyed by now. The annoying guy would go away, Thrall would make a speech about failing him, Jaina would be teleport back to her castle, and the masses would rejoice that the plot has advanced. Killing off Thrall or Jaina would have a chance of people actually caring about what's going on.

This may be way out on a limb, but does anyone else feel that the coming faction swap option will be related not to all out war between factions, but some lasting peace that is forged between both sides? Assuming Garrosh does die (taking a lot of the conflict with him) and Varian realizes that the common foe of Arthas means that both sides should end their differences and focus on joint survival? I know that a lot of game mechanics don't play in to lore very well, but in the back of my mind I have this inkling of thought that the faction swap option that is in the works will be related to something like an armistice or something. Most likely way out there though.

Eh, having a full fledged war between the horde and alliance would make no sense whatsoever. If anything, it would be just between the Orcs and Humans, not the current Horde and Alliance.

The Night Elves won't subject themselves to a pointless war based on old hatreds; hell, them even being in the alliance in the first place barely makes sense.

The Draenei, after all the events of Burning Crusade, there is really no reason for them to remain in Azeroth. The only way I could see this working is if Varian somehow strokes the Draeneis old hatred of the orcs.

The Tauren and Darkspear Trolls loyalties lie with Thrall, not Garrosh. If Thrall were to be killed or anything of the sort, Cairne and Vol'jin would surely split from the Horde.

The Blood Elves loyalties seem to now lie primairly with the Kirin Tor and Dalaran, and I highly doubt, based on their redemption and now wielding the holy light, they would fight their Paladin brothers in the Humans and Dwarves.

That's the point, though. Blizz usually goes for the safe way when it comes to lore. As much as we love lore here in this thread, we're a small part of the general WoW population, and for them lore is definitely secondary. I doubt they would risk a major lore revolution (not while WoW is still strong, anyway. Although it might be very possible during the transition to WoW1 to WoW2, whenever that happens).

Open war makes more sense than a lasting peace. Lasting peace would ruin pvp and cause more problems than it's worth. I play on a casual pve server and we still jump any flagged horde we see. I can only imagine tensions run much deeper on serious pvp servers.

The factions are already, largely speaking, pacts of convenience. If the two sides involved then decided that they won't fight each other, there would be really no reason for the factions to exist at all. The 10 races would just go their separate ways, agree not to fight each other, and all team up when the next bad guy threatening to destroy Azeroth comes around. If that were the route they were going to take the lore I imagine they would just remove communication and grouping barriers. Since they aren't doing that, and in fact are working on a process to let players switch factions, I think we'll see tensions escalate as time goes on.