That's certainly evidence in favor of goblin/worgen playable races in the future but don't forget that they're just masks for "Hallow's End" and dressing up is all part of it. If we start seeing masks for other new races as well I think it is more likely that they're just fun dress-up items and not anything more.
What about an instance where u are in part of the cave that didn't collapse and the final fight has a timer on it where the actual boss fight starts destroying the enviroment and if you dont kill the boss in time (enrage) the cave collapses on the raid.
Already done - that'd be Firefighter. Or Magtheridon - to an extent.
That's certainly evidence in favor of goblin/worgen playable races in the future but don't forget that they're just masks for "Hallow's End" and dressing up is all part of it. If we start seeing masks for other new races as well I think it is more likely that they're just fun dress-up items and not anything more.
This is true, but a pretty weak case. If they were going to add more masks for different random races it seems likely that they would add them all at once to avoid the "ZOMG worgen/goblins=new races!" speculation. I'm a bit late to this part of the discussion, but worgens could easily give the alliance an "evil" race to parallel the forsaken. I'm sure it would also attract even more subscribers to the game in the form of furries/Twilight fans so it makes great sense from a financial standpoint. This would also require a new expansion feature along the lines of "increased the size of your /ignore list!"
If Goblins and Worgen go in, as stated, it makes sense that Goblins would be Horde and Worgen Alliance. This means Blizzard could finally make good on old plot. Do your Worgen starting zone in an instanced fashion, just like DK. Rescue the Scythe of Elune for your redemption, then teleport to Darnassus and turn it in to Tyrande. She can then welcome you into the Alliance and ask the guards to stop throwing rotten fruit at you.
Speculation atop speculation - Worgen Druids could make sense. The problem is Goblin ones seems improbable, and I doubt they'd move to class disparity on Druids. I suppose they could grant the class to another pre-existing Horde race, but it still seems unlikely. However, Worgen Shaman and Goblin paladins could be a hell of a lot of fun.
Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."
This is true, but a pretty weak case. If they were going to add more masks for different random races it seems likely that they would add them all at once to avoid the "ZOMG worgen/goblins=new races!" speculation.
Exactly. As the referenced thread states, there's only masks for playables races (both sexes), and the last time new masks appeared was for the introduction of Draenei and Blood Elves. So, the most likely explanation is, indeed, a splinter goblin faction ("fuck profit, we're under dire threat of genocide, we need real allies you (censored)!") and stabilized worgren-converted humans (a more "sociable" version of the Solstice villagers).
The logical offshot is, of course, horde goblins and alliance worgren. Goblins don't make sense as alliance at all, and worgrens are heavily tied to alliance (human "father", heavily interested night-elves, and the probable lore points to converted humans rather than "natives").
Unless you're a paladin or warlock, Shadowfang Keep is just a remote instance with no quests to the alliance. The horde, however, have a quest line in Silverpine that takes you there, with Arugal an antagonist. The alliance quest interaction with worgen is isolated to a few "go kill these guys over there" quests in Duskwood, with about as much plot tie-in as the ogre camp in the zone. A redemption event would still leave bad feeling with the horde leadership, but the race is almost a clean slate to the alliance.
Unless you're a paladin or warlock, Shadowfang Keep is just a remote instance with no quests to the alliance. The horde, however, have a quest line in Silverpine that takes you there, with Arugal an antagonist. The alliance quest interaction with worgen is isolated to a few "go kill these guys over there" quests in Duskwood, with about as much plot tie-in as the ogre camp in the zone. A redemption event would still leave bad feeling with the horde leadership, but the race is almost a clean slate to the alliance.
There's quite an extensive questline involving the Scythe of Elune in Ashenvale for the Alliance. Furthermore, unless my memory is off, the Worgen were brought in initially to combat the Scourge and the Legion. This just happened to backfire on Arugal and the Night Elven Sentinel that thought to gain valuable allies.
If Goblins and Worgen go in, as stated, it makes sense that Goblins would be Horde and Worgen Alliance. This means Blizzard could finally make good on old plot. Do your Worgen starting zone in an instanced fashion, just like DK. Rescue the Scythe of Elune for your redemption, then teleport to Darnassus and turn it in to Tyrande. She can then welcome you into the Alliance and ask the guards to stop throwing rotten fruit at you.
I love it -- this is an awesome way to tie in both the emerald dream (as a part of cleansing the scythe) and the seas/maelstrom (assuming the worgen come out of Gilneas).
Unless you're a paladin or warlock, Shadowfang Keep is just a remote instance with no quests to the alliance. The horde, however, have a quest line in Silverpine that takes you there, with Arugal an antagonist. The alliance quest interaction with worgen is isolated to a few "go kill these guys over there" quests in Duskwood, with about as much plot tie-in as the ogre camp in the zone. A redemption event would still leave bad feeling with the horde leadership, but the race is almost a clean slate to the alliance.
Well, have you gone into Pyrewood as alliance in the daytime? In the daytime, Pyrewood is friendly to alliance, even to the point of having vendors you can interact with. It's quite fun to be in the village at sundown, as all the friendly vendors turn into hostile werewolves. Between that and Gilneas being right there, if we get worgen, I just can't see them being horde instead of alliance.
On top of that, Grizzly Hills has a lot of alliance-related Worgen content, including a teleport back to Silverpine at one point to watch what happens to Arugal. Even if alliance folks don't grow to understand the situation with the worgen and Arugal in their 20s like horde does, they certainly do in their 70s in Grizzly Hills.
And isn't this exactly the sort of "we'd want to do something to raise awareness of the race gradually before introducing it" thing the devs were talking about?
(Edit: they're all over Duskwood as well, and alliance see stuff about them there.)
There has already been the point made about the Alliance having an "evil" race in the form of the Worgen and maybe it was touched on before this mask evidence came out, but the goblins could be a small race for the Horde, such as gnomes for the Alliance. That is how my logic works as far as which race will be on which side.
Anyone think that being a Worgen will have some shape shifting abilities? Or will worgen always be worgen? Just thinking about racials - maybe even a travel form in the shape of a wolf?
If there are female and male versions of the masks (especially worgen) then that almost confirms that they will be playable since there is NO reason whatsoever to make a female version of Worgen otherwise.
Alliance has an evil race... the Humans. Seriously, do the Elwynn/Stormwind quests.
But, the Alliance certainly could use a more bestial race like the Tauren. Spacegoats have comparable size to Taurens, but Spacegoats don't look bestial. On the same token though, the Horde could probably use another tall race, not another small one.
Worgen as an Alliance race though has some compelling reasons. Pyrewood was an Alliance village afterall. Perhaps Gilneas could be the new Worgen capital as well. It does not seem very "heroic" for the Alliance to turn their backs on former comrades.
Originally Posted by arison
Everyone should start from the same place and rise based on their abilities, desires, and schedule. No one plays MMOs to *be* powerful, they play MMOs to *become* powerful. It's the journey, stupid. The rarer loot is, the more cherished it is when you get it, but only so long as there is a reasonable expectation to get it. The rarer loot is, the better it feels when you kill a boss or when $AWESOME_TRINKET drops.
If there are female and male versions of the masks (especially worgen) then that almost confirms that they will be playable since there is NO reason whatsoever to make a female version of Worgen otherwise.
No, doesn't exactly mean playable, just means that there could be female Worgen, which are in a neutral faction, and somehow involved in the (speculated) Maelstrom expansion's Hallow's End. Goblins would of course also be involved in this merchandise.
No, doesn't exactly mean playable, just means that there could be female Worgen, which are in a neutral faction, and somehow involved in the (speculated) Maelstrom expansion's Hallow's End. Goblins would of course also be involved in this merchandise.
Why would they model female worgen for that though? If they were just NPC's they would go the same route they went with the Broken, Taunka, Tuskarr, Ogres and about every single other non playable race and only have males. I see no reason to add masks for a non playable race other than goblins but to model a female worgen just for a npc or to enhance Hallows End seems pretty unlikely. If they remove these next build then I am going to assume it was a big mistake on Blizzards part just like how they accidentally added Icecrown Citadel and its 5 man in the 3.1 PTR before removing it.
Why would they model female worgen for that though? If they were just NPC's they would go the same route they went with the Broken, Taunka, Tuskarr, Ogres and about every single other non playable race and only have males.
Yet there have been massive complaints about those races not having females (or proper ones, in the case of the Taunka)
And there already are female models for Goblins, Vrykul and Naga.
Yet there have been massive complaints about those races not having females (or proper ones, in the case of the Taunka)
And there already are female models for Goblins, Vrykul and Naga.
Well Naga having female versions was as simple as them porting the initial model from Warcraft 3 and slightly editing it. The Vrykul played a very important role in WotLK and a large part of the expansion tied into them. Goblins are just a race that has always been around who make a appearance in each expansion and do so much that it makes sense for them to have both sexes.
Now I guess they could be going the route of having the Worgen play a large role in the next expansion but that still doesn't explain why you would make Halloween masks for them when they didn't do that with Naga, Vrykul or any other non playable race. And why would they wait till this expansion to make masks for NPC's let alone a Worgen? I know using a mask as proof is grasping at straws but adding masks for a NPC just doesn't make much sense.
I guess our answer won't come for another month though.
Anyone think that being a Worgen will have some shape shifting abilities? Or will worgen always be worgen? Just thinking about racials - maybe even a travel form in the shape of a wolf?
If in fact worgen do become a new race, my guess is that they wouldn't use the same models for player worgen as they do for the NPCs. Those NPC worgen models are pretty old at this point (but note how well they've held up, they still look pretty darn cool). I imagine they'd be similar but would push them a little closer to human in appearance. A type of "berserking" racial where you transform ever so slightly to a more wolf-like form would be cool.
Also, as interesting as it is, I'm also dreading the furry population explosion as well as all the new werewolf RP'ers (really bad ones too). Steveharris is right, we'll all need huge /ignore lists at that point.
If in fact worgen do become a new race, my guess is that they wouldn't use the same models for player worgen as they do for the NPCs. Those NPC worgen models are pretty old at this point (but note how well they've held up, they still look pretty darn cool). I imagine they'd be similar but would push them a little closer to human in appearance.
Also, as interesting as it is, I'm also dreading the furry population explosion as well as all the new werewolf RP'ers (really bad ones too). Steveharris is right, we'll all need huge /ignore lists at that point.
It wouldn't be any different than it was for blood elves. I'd imagine playable Worgen would just use a updated model of the old one (almost like the new model used in Grizzly Hills) but continue with their beastial type look. I'd imagine they would just port the animations from the current Worgen model since it has all the animations that player races have.
Why would they model female worgen for that though? If they were just NPC's they would go the same route they went with the Broken, Taunka, Tuskarr, Ogres and about every single other non playable race and only have males. I see no reason to add masks for a non playable race other than goblins but to model a female worgen just for a npc or to enhance Hallows End seems pretty unlikely. If they remove these next build then I am going to assume it was a big mistake on Blizzards part just like how they accidentally added Icecrown Citadel and its 5 man in the 3.1 PTR before removing it.
Well don't forget they once redid ALL Ogre models in the game. There are female npcs of non-playable races. The races that don't have female npcs tend to be the ones that walk around topless. I am willing to bet it's the lack of clothes aspect combined with the female anatomy that's thus far made them unwilling to make female models for some races. (For example, there are female Vrykhul, but not Tuskarr who all seem to walk around topless).
Originally Posted by arison
Everyone should start from the same place and rise based on their abilities, desires, and schedule. No one plays MMOs to *be* powerful, they play MMOs to *become* powerful. It's the journey, stupid. The rarer loot is, the more cherished it is when you get it, but only so long as there is a reasonable expectation to get it. The rarer loot is, the better it feels when you kill a boss or when $AWESOME_TRINKET drops.
Well don't forget they once redid ALL Ogre models in the game. There are female npcs of non-playable races. The races that don't have female npcs tend to be the ones that walk around topless. I am willing to bet it's the lack of clothes aspect combined with the female anatomy that's thus far made them unwilling to make female models for some races. (For example, there are female Vrykhul, but not Tuskarr who all seem to walk around topless).
Well using a lore reason makes little sense since it the end there are no female tuskarr, taunka and a few other races since Blizzard admittedly wanted to spend the time modeling other things. Now sure they redid the Ogre model for Dire Maul which could of also been seen as a prelude to the role they played in TBC. I still just find it hard to believe they would go out of their way to make masks for non playable races suddenly and choose Worgen of all things.
Well don't forget they once redid ALL Ogre models in the game. There are female npcs of non-playable races. The races that don't have female npcs tend to be the ones that walk around topless. I am willing to bet it's the lack of clothes aspect combined with the female anatomy that's thus far made them unwilling to make female models for some races. (For example, there are female Vrykhul, but not Tuskarr who all seem to walk around topless).
You may wish to take another look at some of the harpies roaming the lands. Those are essentially wearing no more than one of the female toons stripped down and dancing on the mailboxes for a few coppers.
Ignorance can be solved with a book. Stupidity requires a shotgun and a shovel.
You may wish to take another look at some of the harpies roaming the lands. Those are essentially wearing no more than one of the female toons stripped down and dancing on the mailboxes for a few coppers.
Fair enough but the whole idea of Harpies in most lore situations (I'm unsure about Warcraft) is that there are no males. In that situation, there would be no male models to use and you have the choice of making a female model or not using them at all.
Harpies also bounce around so much (because of their strange mode of flight) that you can't really tell what you're looking at anyway. Ask most players what Harpies actually look like and they'd draw a blank. They're a jittery blur and then dead.
Last edited by Tinwhisker : 07/17/09 at 5:18 PM.
Reason: typos, clarification
All the currently existing members of NPC race X are male (fact A). All these NPCs are topless (fact B). Therefore they did not make females because they can't show them topless (C). A+B != C. This is spurious logic.
Many cultures have/had topless men and women, I'll grant you that. However many cultures have/had topless men and apparel for women. Just look at some Ancient Egyptian art. You have men with their pectoral necklaces and kilts, but the women are modest by today's standards.
Naga males are topless (and bottomless, for that matter). Female naga have convenient scales.
Whether there are females modeled mostly depends on Blizzard art resources and effective use of time. No value added spending days and weeks making it? Don't make it. We needed female Vrykul to complete the story of humans being mutant offspring. Hard to carry out that quest chain without showing baby mommas. So, sigh, some schlub had to make female Vrykul models.
It is my understanding that there are male and female goblins, not to mention different armour models on goblins, because at some initial phase (alpha? Early beta?) goblins were going to be Horde playable. Blizzard devoted the art resources before changing that plan for gameplay or story purposes. Why not capitalize on this pre-existing work and make them Horde faction playable? Good for Blizzard, means more time for their art department to work elsewhere.
Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."
07/17/09, 10:10 AM
