World of Warcraft - Lore & Storyline discussion [SPOILERS] - Page 167

Blayze · 03/06/09, 12:37 PM

Originally Posted by Duilliath

Now, this just might be me, but I have the distinct feeling Alexstrasza might not be all too tickled about carpet-bombing Northrend and destroying any life present there.

Meh. It all seems to want to kill us anyway.

Dwimmerlaik · 03/06/09, 3:51 PM

Would it be entirely possibly, if not probable, that Sargeras and the Burning Legion are actually a controlled tool of the Titans to correct wayward worlds? That Algalon himself is literally the last mechanism to employ if all others have failed?

Exemplar · 03/06/09, 4:48 PM

Originally Posted by Dwimmerlaik

Would it be entirely possibly, if not probable, that Sargeras and the Burning Legion are actually a controlled tool of the Titans to correct wayward worlds? That Algalon himself is literally the last mechanism to employ if all others have failed?

Algalon is not a world correcting tool. He's just an auditor. He was summoned. He came in. He looked at things. If they match the rulebook, he sends back Alpha. If they don't match the rulebook, he sends back Omega.

He's prepped to send Omega. Let's reason with him. With large weapons and magical spells!

As for Burning Legion a tool to correct wayward worlds, their entire point is to make planets wayward. That'd take some severe retcon.

evisania · 03/06/09, 4:53 PM

Originally Posted by Dwimmerlaik

Would it be entirely possibly, if not probable, that Sargeras and the Burning Legion are actually a controlled tool of the Titans to correct wayward worlds? That Algalon himself is literally the last mechanism to employ if all others have failed?

I don't think so. In reading the War of the Ancients trilogy the Legion is portrayed not just as destroyers, but as destroyers who take great pleasure in the suffering they cause. I can't see many creators wanting their failed creations to suffer even if they do want them destroyed.

That and Sargeras' priorities seem to be accumulating power and magical energies, not just acting as a demolition crew.

Arthek · 03/06/09, 4:55 PM

From the current schedule for PTR Testing:

Originally Posted by Daelo

Mimiron and Auriaya soon.

This pretty much confirms she's the missing boss in Ulduar.

Starfire · 03/06/09, 8:44 PM

The one thing that confuses me the most... why didn't the Titan's destroy the planet eons ago before they seeded new life?

Unless the Titan's seeded life, the Old Gods invaded, the Titans intervened and imprisoned the Old Gods...

Of course there are other answers too; we're all imagine the Titans as being very very powerful, but another possibility is over the millennia they have gained the ability to destroy planets and millennia ago they did not.

I also think the most eire thing is the lack of mention of Elune, virtually anywhere in Northrend. I don't play Horde, so this is a question, do the Taunaka have anything to do with Elune?

Kaejin · 03/06/09, 10:06 PM

They don't seem to have any druids from what I can tell. Druidism was reintroduced to the Tauren by the Night Elves, so it's not surprising. Since druidism is the only real connection the Tauren have with Elune (and it's not a very strong one either), I'd say there's pretty much no mention at all.

Leguaran · 03/06/09, 10:17 PM

Originally Posted by Starfire

The one thing that confuses me the most... why didn't the Titan's destroy the planet eons ago before they seeded new life?

Unless the Titan's seeded life, the Old Gods invaded, the Titans intervened and imprisoned the Old Gods...

You answered your own question. They seeded life, Old Gods get a hold on the planet, instead of nuking the planet clean, they tried killing those Old Gods, but realized that they had become too intertwined with Azeroth in a way that their destruction would also destroy the planet, so they chained them deep under the earth where they thought they would have been permanently isolated from the rest of life in the planet.

Fast forward a couple tens of thousand years, Old Gods have been able to influence and corrupt life and the defense systems of the planet, things get messed up enough that the Titan's "Prime Designate" is lost (Loken, which we killed). Titan protocol is that whenever the prime designate dies, it raises a red flag concerning systemic corruption, and Algalon is sent over to audit the planet and see what is going on.

From that point on, it's been explained.

Bottom-line is that we probably raised one of the biggest possible red flags in the Pantheon's eyes, and everything Algalon was able to learn from his analysis and past knowledge from other planets was that it was in the best interest of the universe to wipe our planet clean and start over... but from what it seems, Azeroth is the first planet to fight against that decision in a way that really forced him to reconsider.

I'm not saying we bullied a titan creation to reverse his decision, I'm saying that from the looks of the voice files, we somehow manage to impress/show a will that Algalon had never seen before in other worlds he audited, and he started doubting his own calculations ("I cannot trust my own calculations anymore").

Talgog · 03/06/09, 11:23 PM

As a resident of Azeroth, I would be getting increasingly in favor of the "kill all Titans" proposal. It doesn't seem as if they have any redeeming value left to offer the current world and their "nuke Azeroth" proposal leaves much to be desired.

Karamoon · 03/07/09, 12:52 AM

I'm not sure why people discussing Wrynn often act like Wrathgate is an isolated incident. The horde have been committing and continue to commit clear acts of war against the alliance, Wrathgate is just the straw that broke the camel's back. The Alliance has been bending over backwards to try to live with the Horde since before WOW starts, and the Horde have continually been performing gross breaches of basic morality and blatant acts of war.

The horde started off as a murderous army who invaded Azeroth to destroy what is now the Alliance. 'Oh, that was all the demon blood's fault' doesn't really fly when the modern horde reveres the old horde, to the point of erecting grand statues to celebrate it's heroes. The Night Elves are only in The Alliance because the nice New Horde invaded their territory and refuses to leave, and the New Horde incidentally chose to drink demon blood again to help in that invasion. When Wrynn risked himself to try to negotiate a lasting peace with them last time, they kidnapped him, blanked his memory, and made him fight as a gladiator.

The Forsaken got their start by betraying the Alliance - Sylvannis agreed to help Garithos retake Lorderon, but instead turned on him and his army once their opponents were dead. Since then the Forsaken have been conducting horrible experiments on humans and dwarves, killing Alliance civilians (farmers in Hillsbrad and Lorderon), creating a plague to end all life, and only occasionally acting against the Scourge. One your early forsaken missions is to assassinate former forsaken who can't stomach all that the Forsaken are up to and try to leave.

The Alliance is not perfect, but I don't see anywhere where the Alliance tortures Horde members to death with twisted medical experiments, or goes out of their way to slaughter horde civilians, or keeps mind-destroyed horde as pets, or even where the Aliance makes significant incursions against horde territory. The horde forces captured Alliance citizens to fight to the death in arenas, both in Orgrimmar according to the Wrynn comics, and in the Undercity as you can see in WOW, while the alliance had some non-deadly gladiator games years ago by a local commander in the internment camps.

In Northrend, the early campaign was categorized by horde continually harassing alliance operations, as borne out by both Alliance and Horde quest texts. At the Wrathgate, the Forsaken destroy one possibly successful alliance offensive, and at the Broken front Horde troops laughingly destroy an Alliance offensive rather than see the Alliance doing better in the war than they are. Based purely on responding rationally to events in Northrend, the Alliance should never leave itself exposed to Horde betrayal again.

I think it would be fair for Wrynn to modify the old saying to: Stab me in the back once, shame on you. Stab me in the back a half dozen different times, two of those times halting direct offensives against Arthas, conduct horrible experiments on my people, make my people fight to death in your arenas, continue invasions against my allies, and more I'm probably forgetting, shame on me.

They [horde troops] saw the Alliance assaulting the gate and they attacked them from behind...

<After a brief pause, Korm bursts into laughter.>

THAT is what it means to be HORDE!

Were it not for them, the Alliance maggots would likely be holding that gate!

Their boldness has bought us precious time.

Enova · 03/07/09, 1:20 AM

Keep in mind that everything in Icecrown is post-Wrathgate, and post Varian almost going berzerk and threatening to annihilate everyone. Not that it matters anymore, but after they just declared all out war on the Horde, the Alliance should have at least watched their backs. As for the Horde... well, there's a medieval moron high up in their command chain as well (Hellscream, here's looking at you). But he can't be contained because... guess what? Varian keeps pushing the wrong buttons and supporting his cause. And what's worse is that both of them are sort of icons to their troops, and they instill their bloodlust to those troops. Basically, pitting two bloodthirsty maniacs and the armies that look up to them against each other is not going to result in good sportsmanship. And do keep in mind that this has been going on for a very long time now, and ad some point during the third war, the Horde shifted away from the bad guy role, and the Alliance is constantly taking shots at them (Admiral Proudmoore, Garithos - which by the is the biggest monumental fuck up of them all, the one that caused the Alliance to break - then Vandaar Stormpike, and finally Varian)

I personally rather liked the old 'cold war' feeling WoW had, where inter faction tensions were generated by various strategic objectives, not by the egos of two commanders. I just think that fighting for something that's supposed to give you an edge in strengthening your faction (i.e the resources of AB, the staging point for the invasion of Tempest Keep in EOTS, or the additional supply line that Venture Bay is supposed to provide) is a notch more appealing than all out carnage to soothe a pair of overly developed egos.

Emeraude · 03/07/09, 1:30 AM

I absolutely love the Varian vs Thrall, Alliance vs Horde discussion.

I think Metzen hit the mark with what he was hoping to aim for with people taking sides in the debate.

Personally I'm a Varian supporter the Horde has clearly run unchecked for too long, death to the Greenskins!(Kidding my hordling friends....or AM I? <3)

You either see Varian as a somebody who sees the Horde for what they are and a need to defend the Alliance even if it means war, or somebody that shouldn't be in a position of leadership who's a hothead and has too much of a personal vendetta and is doing this for his own sake and not the Alliance's.

You either see Thrall as the peaceful Warchief of the Horde who's apparently completely innocent of the fact that he has despicable evil people in his faction...*cough* or you see him as somebody trying to hold it all together and has been declared war on unjustly.

Or you have a mix of the above and just understand the entire picture and why it all led to this.

Enova · 03/07/09, 2:01 AM

There's also another issue here. The Alliance has one spearhead figure for the whole Northrend campaign. Varian. Everyone else (Velen, Tyrande, Magni are just sitting there, doing nothing). And I honestly don't think Jaina wstill counts as 'Alliance' after the stunt she pulled in Undercity :P

The Horde, on the other hand has their wise and peaceful ruler (Thrall), then the ruthless and cunning one (Sylvannas), the old grunt who doesn't miss the old Horde at all (Saurfang), and the raging berzerker who happens to hate everyone and is in command of all forces in Northrend (Hellscream junior). I guess this just makes it a lot easier to find a perspective you like when it comes to the Horde.

Starfire · 03/07/09, 2:11 AM

But the Alliance has the 7th Legion... and we claim Brann Bronzebeard and Muradin Bronzebeard. (more the latter, less the former, especially after you complete the quest and King Magni arrives in Northrend, Muradin vows to take down Arthas).

We also have Veressa Windrunner and Thassarian. Actually, I am not sure about Thassarian. Do the Horde ever interact with Thassarian?

Enova · 03/07/09, 2:19 AM

Originally Posted by Starfire

Actually, I am not sure about Thassarian. Do the Horde ever interact with Thassarian?

No, they don't. Not unless you count the Death Knight starting area :P
They do have his blood elf counterpart, Koltiria Deathweaver, Thasarrian's only Death Knight friend, that you go out of your way to save in the same DK starting area.

And, right now, Thassarian isn't exactly part of the Alliance, and the way I see it, most of the stuff you do for him isn't even sanctioned by the Alliance.

Veressa seems kinda useless as it is now, and Muradin... well.. time will tell. He's not really doing much, as far as I remember. He just rides off to work his magic against Arthas.

And yeah, as a bonus, we do have the 7th Legion