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Old 03/07/09, 3:18 AM   #2506
Leviathon
Great Tiger
 
Worgen Druid
 
Blade's Edge
The Kor'kron Vanguard are the Horde equivalent to the 7th Legion.

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Old 03/07/09, 6:50 AM   #2507
Zaleiria
Von Kaiser
 
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Blood Elf Warlock
 
Cho'gall
In reference to Putress being unchecked (as referenced in a few posts), he was probably looked at pretty fondly by the Horde initially, since he provided the plague cure to the horde (well, he discovered the anti-plague at least).

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Old 03/07/09, 10:53 AM   #2508
AJAlkaline
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Runetotem
Originally Posted by Enova View Post
There's also another issue here. The Alliance has one spearhead figure for the whole Northrend campaign. Varian. Everyone else (Velen, Tyrande, Magni are just sitting there, doing nothing). And I honestly don't think Jaina wstill counts as 'Alliance' after the stunt she pulled in Undercity :P

The Horde, on the other hand has their wise and peaceful ruler (Thrall), then the ruthless and cunning one (Sylvannas), the old grunt who doesn't miss the old Horde at all (Saurfang), and the raging berzerker who happens to hate everyone and is in command of all forces in Northrend (Hellscream junior). I guess this just makes it a lot easier to find a perspective you like when it comes to the Horde.
I think you make a good point that none of the other alliance leaders have much of anything to do with anything. I do wish they would get more of the racial leaders more involved with the storyline. It's depressing how little Tyrande is involved with anything anymore, and Magni, Velen, and hell, even the gnome guy could stand to be a bit more involved in the storyline.

Though, to be honest, a lot of the other horde racial leaders don't have a huge involvement either. Really, it's all orcs and then Sylvanas. I'd like to see Cairne back in action, or the troll leader, or whoever they put in charge of the blood elves these days.

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Old 03/07/09, 11:45 AM   #2509
Karamoon
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Night Elf Druid
 
Dark Iron
Originally Posted by Enova View Post
Keep in mind that everything in Icecrown is post-Wrathgate, and post Varian almost going berzerk and threatening to annihilate everyone. Not that it matters anymore, but after they just declared all out war on the Horde, the Alliance should have at least watched their backs. As for the Horde... well, there's a medieval moron high up in their command chain as well (Hellscream, here's looking at you). But he can't be contained because... guess what? Varian keeps pushing the wrong buttons and supporting his cause.
Wrynn never went berzerk and threatened to annihilate everyone, he got mad after seeing the mutilated remains of people who experienced forsaken mercy and tried to eliminate the person who is in charge of the group that is a huge threat to his people. I don't understand how you can argue that Wrynn should ignore multiple open acts of war and gross crimes against humanity committed by the Horde and not declare war, but have no problem with Horde attacking Alliance forces to prevent them from securing a victory over Arthas.

I don't see how you can possibly argue that Hellscream is just an isolated 'medieval moron' who's at odds with the kind and gentle New Horde. He's just advocating a continuation the aggressive warfare the New Horde have practiced under Thrall since the beginning. Are you going to blame Wrynn for the invasion of Ashenvale, the war of expansion and extermination against the centaurs and quillboars, the Forsaken attacks against Hillsbrad, and the horrifying Forsaken experiments? The New Horde is an aggressive, expansionistic, untrustworthy group that attacks anyone anytime it thinks it can possibly gain advantage, and treats prisoners either as fodder for death sports or as subjects for twisted experiments.

Varian Wrynn is the leader of the humans and by extension the Alliance, Thrall is the leader of the horde. Wrynn can be held accountable for the human chain of command and most of the Alliance. He does not, however, have any say in the Orcish chain of command, and trying to blame the actions of Thrall's commanders on Wrynn makes no sense. The horde have been provoking the alliance since before WOW even started, arguing that the alliance responding to this provocation absolves the Horde of responsibility for their actions is silly.

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Old 03/07/09, 1:34 PM   #2510
Enova
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Moonglade (EU)
I'm not claiming Hellscream is an isolated case in the Horde; I'm sure the bloodlust is still strong in many of the old grunts, but that's always to be expected from soldiers, who don't have the full picture. I'm trying to say he's just the one in command of all the armies in Northrend, and I'm sure he's doing much to rekindle the aggression that's laying more or less dormant in every other orc.

And, as I've said, invading Ashenvale would fall into the category of fighting for resources, and more to the point, it's a war with a solid end game in mind. More lumber is a key to the Horde infrastructure.
The war against the quillboars and centaurs is a matter of securing the borders against raiding parties that don't seem to understand reason. National security.

Both of these seem like solid reasons to start a war. There's a hell of a lot of difference between that and just decimating an Alliance force fighting against your greatest enemy in the area, who, by the way, happens to benefit from that in more ways than one. I mean, as a commanding officer, seriously, in a modern day army, you'd face the court martial for that. In other, darker times, you'd just be killed to discourage further incompetence from your successors.

Also, any leader's popularity depends greatly on what he believes in and how appropriate his followers think that is for the current situation. If you're facing imminent attack from a powerful enemy, the majority of the population will follow the one who's planning to fight back.

Now, things went well in Northrend prior to Wrathgate, even including the minor skirmishes, spying and sabotage that's always inherent to an expansion by two competitive factions. And all of a sudden, Wrathgate, the battle for Undercity, and you have Icecrown, which is an awesome area to play in, with good faction quests, but the military actions make no sense whatsoever. If Varian and Garrosh want all out war, by all means, they can go kill eaachother like civilized people. But both of them are just plain stupid for doing it at the doorstep of Azeroth's greatest necromancer.

And one last thing. The Forsaken mercy thing. The Alliance always seemed to had an 'Oh, look, an orc/troll/undead. Let's make a bonfire and burn it!' mentality in my opinion. I liked that, I agree, but I'd expect that after AQ, Naxx and Outland, it'd had sunk in to even the thickest grunts that there's a lot of things out there more dangerous than the opposite faction.

Last edited by Enova : 03/07/09 at 1:40 PM.

Originally Posted by XI- View Post
In summary, TBC raiding is easy. 9/10 encounters can be summarized with 1 phrase. Stay out of the fucking fire. If this is too difficult BWL was still there last I checked, so go have at it for some practice.
Originally Posted by Kaubel View Post
You people are idiots
Guilty as charged ^

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Old 03/07/09, 2:06 PM   #2511
Starfire
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Dragonblight
The most suspicious thing of the Wrathgate video is the lack of Night-Elves.

Lack of Spacegoats is completely understandable. Even the lack of Blood Elves.

Originally Posted by arison View Post
Everyone should start from the same place and rise based on their abilities, desires, and schedule. No one plays MMOs to *be* powerful, they play MMOs to *become* powerful. It's the journey, stupid. The rarer loot is, the more cherished it is when you get it, but only so long as there is a reasonable expectation to get it. The rarer loot is, the better it feels when you kill a boss or when $AWESOME_TRINKET drops.

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Old 03/07/09, 2:12 PM   #2512
Talgog
Don Flamenco
 
Human Death Knight
 
Archimonde
There's nothing wrong with Wrynn flipping out after seeing the Apothecarium. Most players have commented something similar, that the Alliance should raze the Undercity for that, or that the Alliance would raise the Undercity if they ever found out. RAS = Scourge for all intents and purposes. Wrynn does not know - and probably would not believe or care - about the lack of oversight on the Forsaken by the other races of the Horde.

It's guilt by association, but Thrall is the damn Warchief, and he did happen to be right there (which is what really sets Wrynn off, if you remember the text).

I liked that, I agree, but I'd expect that after AQ, Naxx and Outland, it'd had sunk in to even the thickest grunts that there's a lot of things out there more dangerous than the opposite faction.
Somewhat notably, the Undercity has never been a big contributor of manpower to war against Azeroth's enemies. They didn't show up for the war against the Qiraji, the only Forsaken to really do much about Naxx are independent members of the Argent Dawn/Crusade, and they had no presence in Outland to speak of.

As far as the Alliance are concerned, the Forsaken are just another enemy alongisde Scourge, Legion, bugs, etc. They have never been given any reason to care for them, and now the Forsaken go and gas Alliance troops and carve up human prisoners for experimental purposes. Can you really blame any member of the Alliance for going "Hell with these Scourge clones, and hell with anyone who helps them!"

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Old 03/07/09, 2:23 PM   #2513
Niton
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Tauren Druid
 
Shattered Hand
Originally Posted by Starfire View Post
The most suspicious thing of the Wrathgate video is the lack of Night-Elves.

Lack of Spacegoats is completely understandable. Even the lack of Blood Elves.
Has the situation story-wise changed significantly since vanilla? I seem to remember there being a power struggle between Staghelm and Tyrande. If that's stayed constant (or become worse), it could explain the reason behind the lack of Night Elves - opposing viewpoints leading to complete inaction. Blood Elves are more of a red flag to me, honestly, since events in Hellfire Peninsula and beyond drastically change the way Blood Elf NPCs act in relation to other races in Outland.

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Old 03/07/09, 3:05 PM   #2514
Leviathon
Great Tiger
 
Worgen Druid
 
Blade's Edge
Originally Posted by Starfire View Post
The most suspicious thing of the Wrathgate video is the lack of Night-Elves.

Lack of Spacegoats is completely understandable. Even the lack of Blood Elves.
It's due to what those military groups are made up of.

The 7th Legion is a pre WoW part of the Alliance military so it only involves races that were in at that time. The Kor'kron is no different with it's exclusion of blood elves.

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Old 03/07/09, 3:15 PM   #2515
Blayze
Piston Honda
 
Human Warrior
 
Hellscream (EU)
Listening to the Algalon sound files on YouTube, I've discovered something very interesting -- a word we've been mispronouncing all this time. After all...

"Witness the fury of the cosmousse!"

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Old 03/07/09, 3:18 PM   #2516
Chirality
Don Flamenco
 
Night Elf Warrior
 
Greymane
Originally Posted by Starfire View Post
The most suspicious thing of the Wrathgate video is the lack of Night-Elves.

Lack of Spacegoats is completely understandable. Even the lack of Blood Elves.
There's at least one Night Elf in the video (at 3:10): after Putress plague-bombs everyone, there's a Night Elf male (glowing eyes and all) in an unmistakable "why me?!" death animation.

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Old 03/07/09, 3:23 PM   #2517
Karamoon
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Night Elf Druid
 
Dark Iron
Originally Posted by Enova View Post
And one last thing. The Forsaken mercy thing. The Alliance always seemed to had an 'Oh, look, an orc/troll/undead. Let's make a bonfire and burn it!' mentality in my opinion. I liked that, I agree, but I'd expect that after AQ, Naxx and Outland, it'd had sunk in to even the thickest grunts that there's a lot of things out there more dangerous than the opposite faction.
Your opinion does not appear to be based on events in the game or in lore. The most notable contradiction to your claim is that the Alliance, after defending themselves against multiple genocidal wars launched by the horde, merely imprisoned the armies that tried to wipe out all human life. If the Alliance had adopted the New Horde's philosophy towards 'national security' threats, or your 'lets make a bonfire' bit, then there would be no New Horde at all. If they followed the Forsaken's path, then Thrall and his present leadership would be puddles of weird green goo.

The Alliance are hostile to the horde, but that's to be expected because of the Horde's history of aggression. You can't launch offensive wars against everyone who has something you want without making enemies. The horde won't even leave Theramore alone even though Jaina is practically Thrall's vassal. The Alliance are even willing to take in former Forsaken who can't stomach the atrocities most Forsaken revel in - though Sylvannis sends commandos to kill those Forsaken off before they can talk about all that goes on in the Undercity.

Perhaps I'm missing something in the lore, but as far as I can tell the Alliance has shown extreme mercy to the Horde (more mercy than even the New Horde shows), and has bent over backwards to try to get along with and work with the Horde. Meanwhile the Horde has shown nothing but naked aggression (Ashenvale, Hillsbrad, Grizzly Hills, Wrathgate) and outright betrayal (turning on Garithos, kidnapping Wrynn, Wrathgate) in response. If you keep poking someone in the eye, even a saint will eventually get tired of trying to be friendly with you.

I don't see how, from the Alliance perspective, the faction of hostile undead led by Arthas significantly different than that that led by Sylvannis and protected by Thrall. Arthas wiped out Lorderon a while back, but Sylvannis betrayed an Allaince army to take Lorderon more recently. Arthas poked at the Alliance a little bit to kick off the expansion, but Sylvannis has been fighting Alliance forces and civilians in Hillsbrad for the whole course of WOW. Arthas makes people into mindless slaves to increase his power, Sylvannis does it for amusement. Arthas kills people and makes them into undead, Sylvannis tortures people to death to make better weapons.

The fact that you mention Outland only servers to highlight this - the opponents the Alliance fought in Outland were enemies who fought alongside the Alliance against the greater threat of the Burning Legion. The fact that it is sometimes necessary to work with one enemy to beat a greater one doesn't mean that you won't have to deal with all of your enemies at some point... and the Forsaken are a bit closer to Stormwind than Arthas.

Last edited by Karamoon : 03/07/09 at 3:36 PM.

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Old 03/07/09, 3:41 PM   #2518
Leviathon
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Worgen Druid
 
Blade's Edge
Originally Posted by Karamoon View Post
Your opinion does not appear to be based on events in the game or in lore. The most notable contradiction to your claim is that the Alliance, after defending themselves against multiple genocidal wars launched by the horde, merely imprisoned the armies that tried to wipe out all human life. If the Alliance had adopted the New Horde's philosophy towards 'national security' threats, or your 'lets make a bonfire' bit, then there would be no New Horde at all. If they followed the Forsaken's path, then Thrall and his present leadership would be puddles of weird green goo.

The Alliance are hostile to the horde, but that's to be expected because of the Horde's history of aggression. You can't launch offensive wars against everyone who has something you want without making enemies. The horde won't even leave Theramore alone even though Jaina is practically Thrall's vassal. The Alliance are even willing to take in former Forsaken who can't stomach the atrocities most Forsaken revel in - though Sylvannis sends commandos to kill those Forsaken off before they can talk about all that goes on in the Undercity.

Perhaps I'm missing something in the lore, but as far as I can tell the Alliance has shown extreme mercy to the Horde (more mercy than even the New Horde shows), and has bent over backwards to try to get along with and work with the Horde. Meanwhile the Horde has shown nothing but naked aggression (Ashenvale, Hillsbrad, Grizzly Hills, Wrathgate) and outright betrayal (turning on Garithos, kidnapping Wrynn, Wrathgate) in response. If you keep poking someone in the eye, even a saint will eventually get tired of trying to be friendly with you.

I don't see how, from the Alliance perspective, the faction of hostile undead led by Arthas significantly different than that that led by Sylvannis and protected by Thrall. Arthas wiped out Lorderon a while back, but Sylvannis betrayed an Allaince army to take Lorderon more recently. Arthas poked at the Alliance a little bit to kick off the expansion, but Sylvannis has been fighting Alliance forces and civilians in Hillsbrad for the whole course of WOW. Arthas makes people into mindless slaves to increase his power, Sylvannis does it for amusement. Arthas kills people and makes them into undead, Sylvannis tortures people to death to make better weapons.

The fact that you mention Outland only servers to highlight this - the opponents the Alliance fought in Outland were enemies who fought alongside the Alliance against the greater threat of the Burning Legion. The fact that it is sometimes necessary to work with one enemy to beat a greater one doesn't mean that you won't have to deal with all of your enemies at some point... and the Forsaken are a bit closer to Stormwind than Arthas.
While you can go about how Sylvanas is evil and knew about everything going on with the Apothecary's you can also look at it the other way and maybe the Apothecary's were only following Varimathras' orders and using Sylvanas' name to get those deeds done (such as the Hillsbrad quest you reference). But guess we will get the answer to that soon enough in the comic or whenever the second chapter begins in game which probably will be 3.2 be the looks of it.

Already I can predict what will make Varian declare war on the Horde for if the comic is as predictable as I think it is. Garona will go to assassinate Varian and get stopped and he will then go to blame the Horde for it although Cho'gall controlling her and the Twilight Hammer are entirely behind it.

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Old 03/07/09, 3:43 PM   #2519
Starfire
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Dragonblight
Originally Posted by Chirality View Post
There's at least one Night Elf in the video (at 3:10): after Putress plague-bombs everyone, there's a Night Elf male (glowing eyes and all) in an unmistakable "why me?!" death animation.
Err the Paladin that is falling over? Presumably his eyes are glowing because of the plague though.


I could be wrong.

Originally Posted by arison View Post
Everyone should start from the same place and rise based on their abilities, desires, and schedule. No one plays MMOs to *be* powerful, they play MMOs to *become* powerful. It's the journey, stupid. The rarer loot is, the more cherished it is when you get it, but only so long as there is a reasonable expectation to get it. The rarer loot is, the better it feels when you kill a boss or when $AWESOME_TRINKET drops.

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Old 03/07/09, 3:44 PM   #2520
Leviathon
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Worgen Druid
 
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Originally Posted by Starfire View Post
Err the Paladin that is falling over? Presumably his eyes are glowing because of the plague though.


I could be wrong.
Yea it is just how that helmets eye glow looks.

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