World of Warcraft - Lore & Storyline discussion [SPOILERS] - Page 170

Vanadi · 03/07/09, 8:01 PM

Originally Posted by Karamoon

At no point did I argue that Garithos was a saint, but the fact is that he was an Alliance commander, Sylvannis made a deal to help him retake Lorderon then leave, at the end when he demanded she leave she betrayed him and killed him. Whether or not you like Garithos, he was part of the alliance, he tried to work with Sylvannis, he held up his end of the deal, and he was betrayed and killed. That is a betrayal, and 'well we didn't like the guy' is not a good justification for betrayal.

Proudmoore did attack the horde right at the start of WOW time... and one of the Alliance leaders killed him rather than let him fight the Orcs, even though there wasn't any formal treaty at the time. If Thrall had killed Hellscream to stop the invasion of Ashenvale instead of making a statue of him and endorsing his war, I would not consider Ashenvale an example of horde aggression, but that's not at all what happened.

Grand Admiral Daelin Proudmoore got killed by Rexxar after proudmoore's attempt to eradicate the horde in kalimdor. And even then Thrall still tried to solve it through reasoning with him and instead he decided to attack Thrall.

And Garithros used and betrayed Kael'Thelas and the blood elves to fight battles for him and then threw them in prison . If you are going to state facts about betrayal at least make sure you tell them all. You also seem to be forgetting that it wasn´t the horde that betrayed the alliance at the wrath gate. It was the royal apothecary society under orders of Varithramas who was controlled by an outside source. Wether the Horde should have noticed the upcoming RAs betrayal is a different story. But the horde did not betray the alliance at the wrathgate. And even then the RAS attack on the lich king had more succes then the combined horde and alliance attack would have had. Arthas taking out saurfang that easily should be proof enough the alliance and horde forces where about to be annihilated.

Kaejin · 03/07/09, 8:12 PM

Not to mention that the Horde was just as betrayed as the Alliance in that event. By that point, the RAS was part of Varimathras's coup holding allegiance to the Burning Legion.

Enova · 03/07/09, 9:49 PM

There's also something else that just occurred to me. In hindsight, it's easy for us to say 'yeah, but Thrall is guilty by association', and I'm sure as hell it's supposed to be easy for Varian to say that. But, unless we have clear evidence stating to the contrary, we can assume he was just as happy to resort to Putress' anti plague to cure his forces. That kinda voids any of his claims that Thrall should have seen it coming.

Jebraltar · 03/07/09, 10:01 PM

Originally Posted by Kaejin

No Horde quests involved sabotage or aggression towards the Alliance until after Varian declared war.

Although you may argue that the Alliance fleets started it, Vengeance Landing has fights between Horde and Alliance, as well as Horde recruits (you) bombing incoming ships with a trial form of the Forsaken plague.

Kaejin · 03/07/09, 10:15 PM

Ah, that's true. My mistake. The few cases that I could remember of Horde/Alliance interaction was in Borean where the Horde returned deserters to the Alliance because they were taking up too much space in the pig pens.

Dancing Wu Li Master · 03/07/09, 11:09 PM

Originally Posted by Jebraltar

Although you may argue that the Alliance fleets started it, Vengeance Landing has fights between Horde and Alliance, as well as Horde recruits (you) bombing incoming ships with a trial form of the Forsaken plague.

There's also this quest (Mission: Plague This! - Quest - World of Warcraft), where the Alliance bombs New Agamand to destroy plague tanks.

Emeraude · 03/07/09, 11:30 PM

Originally Posted by Dancing Wu Li Master

There's also this quest (Mission: Plague This! - Quest - World of Warcraft), where the Alliance bombs New Agamand to destroy plague tanks.

Uhhh, are we really going to argue that eliminating a deadly plague from being used against you is the same or worse as testing said deadly plague on your enemies?

Enova · 03/07/09, 11:43 PM

Okay, I'm not sure about this, but I don't think we were still discussing ethics here; I think the idea was to prove that Alliance - Horde conflict pre-Wrathgate was limited to covert operations, not all out carnage.

Haphnet · 03/07/09, 11:46 PM

Originally Posted by Emeraude

Uhhh, are we really going to argue that eliminating a deadly plague from being used against you is the same or worse as testing said deadly plague on your enemies?

I think he's saying that we already had evidence that the Forsaken were willing to use it on Living things rather than simply a plague to hurt undead things. If they were willing to use it then, why should we have assumed they wouldn't use it on us (alliance) at some point?

Linnet · 03/08/09, 12:03 AM

It's unfortunate that we never see much of a forsaken reaction to the events of Wrathgate. They just ... cease to have a presence in Northrend (other than members of the argent crusade).

Was there a purge of RAS members? I sure hope so. What happened to all the forsaken refugees who we saw camped outside Ogrimmar? Presumably they were able to go home. Was there no internal move against Sylvanas for her dreadful lack of judgement in her advisors? No idea.

All we see of the Undercity externally is the RAS. So when the RAS stops, it seems as though their actions do too. Even though they are still the faction with the most personal grudge against Arthas. They still have a working plague that could be useful against the scourge, do they plan to do anything with it?

I thought it was a disappointing and rather abrupt end to that storyline tbh.

Kaejin · 03/08/09, 1:53 AM

I'm kind of hoping we see an explanation to that in the next act.

Dancing Wu Li Master · 03/08/09, 3:24 AM

Originally Posted by Emeraude

Uhhh, are we really going to argue that eliminating a deadly plague from being used against you is the same or worse as testing said deadly plague on your enemies?

I wasn't arguing morality, I was giving another example of Alliance vs Horde fighting pre-Wrath Gate.

FalseMyrmidon · 03/08/09, 4:36 AM

Originally Posted by Niton

Which is a fairly large source of conflict with the Forsaken, given how many have simply returned to where they lived before the Scourge existed. The Forsaken absolutely have a legitimate claim to the territories. The Alliance has done a good job of forgetting that much of the Forsaken population was its own only a few years ago, and I think that reflects in the way territory lines are drawn in WoW.

edit: I looked at the alliance version of the Death Knight ending chain, songster, and i'm surprised that it's so different than the Horde equivalent. Does Varian yell anything after the fact like Thrall does?

King Varian Wrynn yells: People of Stormwind! Citizens of the Alliance! Your king speaks!
King Varian Wrynn yells: Today marks the first of many defeats for the Scourge! Death knights, once in service of the Lich King, have broken free of his grasp and formed a new alliance against his tyranny!
King Varian Wrynn yells: You will welcome these former heroes of the Alliance and treat them with the respect that you would give any ally of Stormwind!
King Varian Wrynn yells: Glory to the Alliance!

Quest:Where Kings Walk - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft

Axira · 03/08/09, 6:22 AM

You all seem to forget that Varian has seen how corrupted the Horde really is.

He has been a slave in their ranks for a long time and has seen all the horrible dark sides that makes up Horde culture. If you were a visitor in a 3rd world country and saw how they abused women and sold slaves and like savage beasts enjoyed watching and organizing gruesome arena games, would you still feel any sympathy for that culture? Let's also not forget the guy's entire family got killed by those same brutes that now act like they got no blame to take or nothing to repay for what happened.

The truth is that Thrall and Cairne ain't like that, okay. But as time goes by they seem to have lost control over the Horde. The Horde in the meanwhile has become that anarchistic savage society again it always seems to have been, no matter what mythological tales remained about the noble shamanistic society it once was.

I'm pretty certain Metzen already hinted quite alot of times that 'peacekeepers' like Thrall and Cairne will be gone out of the picture 'soon'. And that the Horde will be the warlike brutal people again as the name 'horde' suggests.

In my eyes Varian is the new main 'super-hero' good guy that is gonna set things straight (and I love seeing him do it in the comic book).

Zaleiria · 03/08/09, 6:35 AM

Originally Posted by Axira

You all seem to forget that Varian has seen how corrupted the Horde really is.

The arenas, seriously? One of the arenas which is in Dalaran? I guess when they let the Blood Elves into Dalaran the whole place went to hell, right?

Of course, there are other things you didn't mention. Off hand from the comic I can think of story arcs involving the Grimtotems and the Warsong Clan, but much of this is supported by in-game material.