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Old 03/08/09, 7:22 AM   #2551
Kaejin
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Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by Axira View Post
You all seem to forget that Varian has seen how corrupted the Horde really is.

He has been a slave in their ranks for a long time and has seen all the horrible dark sides that makes up Horde culture. If you were a visitor in a 3rd world country and saw how they abused women and sold slaves and like savage beasts enjoyed watching and organizing gruesome arena games, would you still feel any sympathy for that culture? Let's also not forget the guy's entire family got killed by those same brutes that now act like they got no blame to take or nothing to repay for what happened.

The truth is that Thrall and Cairne ain't like that, okay. But as time goes by they seem to have lost control over the Horde. The Horde in the meanwhile has become that anarchistic savage society again it always seems to have been, no matter what mythological tales remained about the noble shamanistic society it once was.

I'm pretty certain Metzen already hinted quite alot of times that 'peacekeepers' like Thrall and Cairne will be gone out of the picture 'soon'. And that the Horde will be the warlike brutal people again as the name 'horde' suggests.

In my eyes Varian is the new main 'super-hero' good guy that is gonna set things straight (and I love seeing him do it in the comic book).
You're putting a pretty one-sided spin on things. The Horde is a completely different culture from the humans. It's entirely fine to not agree with them, but when you try to argue that they're corrupt just because of the way their culture is, you need to take a step back and cool off. The Horde is a group that believes in power. It's not absurd for a culture like that to indulge in blood sport and slaves, and while you or I may find it morally reprehesible, calling them corrupt for it is purely subjective.

Many negative things you point out in the Horde can be countered with a lot of positive thing (talking about the main body of the Horde, since that seems to be what you're talking abotu as well. Orcs, Trolls, Tauren). Firm belief in honor, respec for strong opponenets and the wise, a strong connection with nature, etc.

Uulwi ifis halahs gag erh'ongg w'ssh.

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Old 03/08/09, 7:28 AM   #2552
Morlark
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<XW>
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Originally Posted by Spleen View Post
Lordaeron fell to the Scourge and so did its cities. The remnants are largely Forsaken or Scourge, and to a lesser extent they comprise the Scarlet Crusade/Onslaught and various refugees. Only one of two of those remnant groups are established powers in former Lordaeron and both are undead.

The property interest isn't vested in factions, it's vested in the kingdoms that comprise those factions. That's how the Alliance has always worked and if you doubt that, look at the Alliance interactions with Gilneas, Alterac, and Dalaran.
Indeed, this is a very good point. The Alliance is made up of entirely independent kingdoms which merely happen to be allied (hence the "Alliance"). In fact this is very well demonstrated in the book Beyond the Dark Portal, where the various kings are discussing what to do with the traitor Perenolde. They feared that any attempt to oust him would be seen as an attempt to annex his territories, which they had no right to do. Similarly, the king of Stormwind has no claim to the territories of Lordaeron, and I think he knows it, otherwise he'd have done something about it a lot sooner.

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Old 03/08/09, 8:26 AM   #2553
Entropie
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Draenor (EU)
Originally Posted by Karamoon View Post
Varian Wrynn is the leader of the humans and by extension the Alliance, Thrall is the leader of the horde. Wrynn can be held accountable for the human chain of command and most of the Alliance. He does not, however, have any say in the Orcish chain of command, and trying to blame the actions of Thrall's commanders on Wrynn makes no sense. The horde have been provoking the alliance since before WOW even started, arguing that the alliance responding to this provocation absolves the Horde of responsibility for their actions is silly.
Variann Wrynn's best friend was a prodigal paladin called Arthas Menethil. Guilty by association? Or is nuance possible on the Alliance side of things?

That being said, hierarchy does not work the same in the Horde and Alliance. The different clans of the Orcs for example are closer to the different kingdoms the humans used to have then to the current chain of command of the Alliance.

God bless our good and gracious king,
Whose promise none relies on;
Who never said a foolish thing,
Nor ever did a wise one.

John Wilmot, 2nd Earl of Rochester

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Old 03/08/09, 8:38 AM   #2554
chrisb3
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Sylvanas (EU)
Could Watcher Tyr be buried under Light's Hope Chapel? It fits with Tyr's Hand being nearby and Tyr being the Light/Order Watcher.

Last edited by chrisb3 : 03/08/09 at 8:50 AM.

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Old 03/08/09, 9:04 AM   #2555
Emeraude
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Sargeras
Originally Posted by Entropie View Post
Variann Wrynn's best friend was a prodigal paladin called Arthas Menethil. Guilty by association? Or is nuance possible on the Alliance side of things?

That being said, hierarchy does not work the same in the Horde and Alliance. The different clans of the Orcs for example are closer to the different kingdoms the humans used to have then to the current chain of command of the Alliance.
With the modern day Horde they are all united under one banner with Thrall as the Warchief of all. I've never heard of a particular clan in the Horde, not even Hellscream's not answering directly to Thrall and/or following his orders. This extends over to all of the factions within the Horde, Blood Elves/Forsaken included, it's understood that Thrall is the overall leader of the entire Horde and his final word dictates all 5 factions below him, yes this includes Sylvanas who cannot make a move without the backing of the Orcs and the numbers they bring. The Horde in general is one gigantic faction of convince, you start with just the Orcs, they included the Island Trolls from the Echo Islands, then they included the nomadic Tauren, then the outcast Forsaken, followed by the broken Blood Elves of Silvermoon. Each faction kind of needs the other, and it just so happens each of them bring a lot to the table, which makes them frighteningly powerful as a whole.

The Alliance is a bit different, it's quite obvious that Varian and King Magni talk and speak to each other as equals, one does not hold a higher weight then the other. I imagine that the same can be said of Tyrande and the Night Elves, they don't answer to Magni or Varian, they're the oldest race in the Alliance. The Gnomes aren't really a nation, they have no nation, they don't even have a monarchy, they've always been a minor race, but similar to Horde factions they bring a lot to the table in terms of technology. Valen and the Draenei also do not answer to anyone. From my understanding the Alliance was formed due to the Humans in general, they're the diplomatic types and they keep the whole thing from falling apart and also coordinate with the other factions, which is odd considering until recently Stormwind was ruled by a Black Dragon for all intents and purposes.

Originally Posted by chrisb3 View Post
Could Watcher Tyr be buried under Light's Hope Chapel? It fits with Tyr's Hand being nearby and Tyr being the Light/Order Watcher.
Underneath Light's Hope are the bodies of 1,000 champions of the light who had fallen in the past, they were moved there after Arthas killed Terenas to prevent the Lich King from raising them for his army, this was explained in Ashbringer #4

Did it occur to anyone that we probably won't see Warcraft IV until say 2015? :P

Last edited by Emeraude : 03/08/09 at 9:20 AM.

What is the most important thing to you? Won't you grant me the pleasure of taking it away.

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Old 03/08/09, 9:39 AM   #2556
Axira
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Argent Dawn (EU)
Originally Posted by Kaejin View Post
Many negative things you point out in the Horde can be countered with a lot of positive thing (talking about the main body of the Horde, since that seems to be what you're talking abotu as well. Orcs, Trolls, Tauren). Firm belief in honor, respec for strong opponenets and the wise, a strong connection with nature, etc.
Well. Especially the bolded part just seems what seems to be, on the current position of the lore storyline, something that is merely a myth and not really living among the Horde anymore. Especially in the comic it is pointed out that the 'common' Orcs and Trolls don't really care much about that at all. They just care about having their own satisfactory life, no matter if that means having to buy a slave they can abuse or having to use methods which are far from honorable. I've only to point out the rogue trainer in the middle of Orgrimmar that is dreaming about stabbing Thrall in the back.

It only seem to be a handful of figures and minor factions within the Horde that still strive for a noble and peace-loving society. As soon as those key figures or factions are gone, the traditional members of the Horde will be nothing but a warlike bunch of savages again. And from what I understood on rather recent lore talks with Metzen, this is also the direction he wants to steer the Horde to.

It also explains why they brought Hellscream Jr. on the scene. You can bet that 'soon' he'll be the new Warchief and will find more support among the Horde than Thrall ever got.

And this is something Varian understands and wants to combat before it's too late. He already pointed out multiple times that Thrall is losing control over his people, simply because it's true. And when that happens there won't be anymore 'uneasy treaties' between the Horde and the Alliance, but only pure hostility.

Especially Jaina will have to re-think where her loyalties lie. But I'm all too convinced that if Thrall gets out of the picture, that Theramore will be the first target of Horde hostility anyway.

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Old 03/08/09, 9:53 AM   #2557
Entropie
Von Kaiser
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Draenor (EU)
Originally Posted by Emeraude View Post
With the modern day Horde they are all united under one banner with Thrall as the Warchief of all. I've never heard of a particular clan in the Horde, not even Hellscream's not answering directly to Thrall and/or following his orders. This extends over to all of the factions within the Horde, Blood Elves/Forsaken included, it's understood that Thrall is the overall leader of the entire Horde and his final word dictates all 5 factions below him, yes this includes Sylvanas who cannot make a move without the backing of the Orcs and the numbers they bring. The Horde in general is one gigantic faction of convince, you start with just the Orcs, they included the Island Trolls from the Echo Islands, then they included the nomadic Tauren, then the outcast Forsaken, followed by the broken Blood Elves of Silvermoon. Each faction kind of needs the other, and it just so happens each of them bring a lot to the table, which makes them frighteningly powerful as a whole.
Thrall's leadership over the Horde is not that complete as you suggest. Thrall's grip on the Orcs themselves is in no way as strong as Wrynn's grip on the humans for example. Just look at the fight between Garrosh and Thrall just before WotLK hit ( Garrosh Hellscream - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft ). He is still Warchief because he is unbeaten in single combat, he has 'respect' because he is the strongest (and wisest to some).

Looking at the New Horde, Thrall's moves and choices are very much dictated by other factions. While you say Sylvanas cannot make a move without a backing of the Orcs, this is true. But conversely, Thrall's decisions are dictated by the concerns of all. As you say "each faction kind of needs the other", and Thrall knows and acts accordingly more then any other.

God bless our good and gracious king,
Whose promise none relies on;
Who never said a foolish thing,
Nor ever did a wise one.

John Wilmot, 2nd Earl of Rochester

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Old 03/08/09, 10:49 AM   #2558
Masaren
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Troll Priest
 
Turalyon
While reading the last couple of pages, I cant help but feel that many people still view the two factions in wow like they are reading a Tolkien book; The Alliance are the forces of good uniting together against the evil horde of monsters. The fact that the 4 races that compromised "good" humanoids in Tolkiens books are almost the same you had in vanilla wow, and the 4 races that compromised the "evil bloodthirsty horde" seem to complement this just exacerbates the situation.

These factions are not black and white, and the horde are not inherently evil and the alliance arent inherently good like most want to believe. Both sides in the conflict are doing what they believe right. To say that the horde are evil and that Varian Wrynn has seen the dark and gruesome side of the horde because they support slavery and hold arena combat in high regard makes them monsters is more than slightly shortsighted. Looking back on human history itself can show you this isnt so. It seems to me that the horde has a feel to trying to build its own identity and civilization from nothing.

To me, at least by the end of TBC, it seems that horde and alliance are trying to come to some kind of amicable coexistence. They dont love each other, but at the very least it seems that they are trying to come to terms with each other. People also tend to blame Thrall and Sylvanas for the actions of the Royal Apothecary Society, saying that both should have been aware of their impending betrayal or that these were somehow involved. This isnt the case however, and shouldnt be blamed upon them. Very recently, the whole of the RAS were saviors to both the alliance and horde, with them being the engineers to the ending of the scourge plague.

"Tough...Don't blame us. Blame yourself or God." Delita Heiral

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Old 03/08/09, 10:54 AM   #2559
Emeraude
Bald Bull
 
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Sargeras
Originally Posted by Entropie View Post
Thrall's leadership over the Horde is not that complete as you suggest. Thrall's grip on the Orcs themselves is in no way as strong as Wrynn's grip on the humans for example. Just look at the fight between Garrosh and Thrall just before WotLK hit ( Garrosh Hellscream - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft ). He is still Warchief because he is unbeaten in single combat, he has 'respect' because he is the strongest (and wisest to some).
You know it's a shame we don't know the details of what happened when Orgrim Doomhammer killed Blackhand(What was his first name, geez) and took over the Horde. Would Hellscream have to kill Thrall to take over the Horde or just defeat him in single combat? Thrall's leadership is as complete as it can be in my opinion, even if they disagree or squabble with him, they ultimately all answer to him, and his word is law(Similar to how Hellscream's word is law in Northrend atm, scary Orcs!) In the novel Old Hatreds Thrall killed an Orc who tried to incite open war with Theramore, and Thrall acknowledges that many of his people disagree with his way of thinking and leadership, BUT they still follow his word to the letter.

Looking at the New Horde, Thrall's moves and choices are very much dictated by other factions. While you say Sylvanas cannot make a move without a backing of the Orcs, this is true. But conversely, Thrall's decisions are dictated by the concerns of all. As you say "each faction kind of needs the other", and Thrall knows and acts accordingly more then any other.
Well that just goes back to what kind of person Thrall is in general. He cares, my point was that none of the 5 factions in the Horde can make a move without his say so. If you look back at the second Scourge invasion for instance you could see Hellscream and Sylvanas lobbying for an assault on Northrend, and trying to convince Thrall to send the Horde's armies. You know Hellscream wouldn't have defied him....well maybe he would have, but NORMAL Orcs who don't want to take over the Horde wouldn't defy him. :P Sylvanas also came off as requesting that it be done, as opposed to just moving her Forsaken out there without him, or telling him "This is what I'm doing, VENGEANCE RAWR, are you on board?"

What is the most important thing to you? Won't you grant me the pleasure of taking it away.

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Old 03/08/09, 11:26 AM   #2560
Entropie
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Blood Elf Paladin
 
Draenor (EU)
Originally Posted by Emeraude View Post
You know it's a shame we don't know the details of what happened when Orgrim Doomhammer killed Blackhand(What was his first name, geez) "
I can't recall him ever having a first name, Blackhand the Destroyer seems to be his 'full' name.


While I partially agree with you on Thrall. I do think that a great part of his 'political' power comes from the fact that they believe he is right. While Sylvanas does request it, instead of just going, she knows he would treat her the same. If she was hellbent on going, not just for herself but for all Forsaken, he would and could not stop her. She knows this. She needs him, and believes in his decisions.

This is a strange duality. Thrall position of Leader of the New Horde is built upon trust and mutual interests, while his position as Warchief of the Orcs is built on personal strength. Cairne, Sylvanas and Shamanistic/Druidic factions respect his wisdom, the Blood Elves, Trolls and the Ebon Blade have sworn allegiance to survive and the Orcs accept and fear his strength, while quite a few don't agree with him. If the Horde is breaking down as people seem to read in Metzen's comments (which I don't, yet), this duality will be the breaking point. Thrall is torn apart by the humanity and the bloodlust within him and within the Greater Horde.

God bless our good and gracious king,
Whose promise none relies on;
Who never said a foolish thing,
Nor ever did a wise one.

John Wilmot, 2nd Earl of Rochester

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Old 03/08/09, 1:07 PM   #2561
Kumar
Don Flamenco
 
Blood Elf Rogue
 
Exodar
For some reason, the discussion of Horde breaking apart reminds me of claims that Sylvanass goes rogue and attacks Horde and Alliance alike.

The argument against both is that Blizzard can't do something that affects lots of Horde players.

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Old 03/08/09, 1:17 PM   #2562
Emeraude
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
For some reason, the discussion of Horde breaking apart reminds me of claims that Sylvanass goes rogue and attacks Horde and Alliance alike.

The argument against both is that Blizzard can't do something that affects lots of Horde players.
Unless Blizzard makes World of Warcraft II or Warcraft IV I'm fairly sure there's no way it can happen.

What is the most important thing to you? Won't you grant me the pleasure of taking it away.

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Old 03/08/09, 1:31 PM   #2563
Starfire
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Night Elf Priest
 
Dragonblight
Two things:

Why is Cairne so irrelevent?

It's quite understandable why High Tinkerer Mekkatorque is irrelevant. And more importantly to my second point, can the Gnomes ever become relevent as more than "the research guys" while their capital city is being desecrated? The gnomes are incredibly unfleshed out and they seem very one-dimensional dealing mostly with Gnomeregan.

Originally Posted by arison View Post
Everyone should start from the same place and rise based on their abilities, desires, and schedule. No one plays MMOs to *be* powerful, they play MMOs to *become* powerful. It's the journey, stupid. The rarer loot is, the more cherished it is when you get it, but only so long as there is a reasonable expectation to get it. The rarer loot is, the better it feels when you kill a boss or when $AWESOME_TRINKET drops.

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Old 03/08/09, 1:36 PM   #2564
songster
Chief Passenger
 
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Earthen Ring (EU)
Originally Posted by Emeraude View Post
Unless Blizzard makes World of Warcraft II or Warcraft IV I'm fairly sure there's no way it can happen.
Mmm, I dunno. I can see them eventually bringing in a way to choose between one faction or the other, as an Aldor/Scryer type thing. So some Orcs would join the Alliance, some Humans the Horde etc., all for their own purposes.

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Old 03/08/09, 1:42 PM   #2565
Kumar
Don Flamenco
 
Blood Elf Rogue
 
Exodar
Originally Posted by songster View Post
Mmm, I dunno. I can see them eventually bringing in a way to choose between one faction or the other, as an Aldor/Scryer type thing. So some Orcs would join the Alliance, some Humans the Horde etc., all for their own purposes.
They have already moved away from Aldor/Scryer type choices with Wrath. Introducing such a choice where Orcs can join Alliance and Humans the Horde, is game changing (and anything game changing can be game destroying too).

Why is Cairne so irrelevent?
Cairne has not been involved prominently in anything till now. I agree though that Cairne is not irrelevent.

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