I think it is clear they were over ambitious with content. The result is this Argent Tournament mess along with a whole host of unfinished or confusing plots. Sara anyone? I posted many many pages back that I think Sara was probably the Drakkaru of the AN zone/raid instance and we were actually trying to save her for some reason. She just makes no sense whatsoever randomly appearing in Ulduar. It is a shame as I really loved Nerubians and Anub'Arak, and was most looking forward to the Azjol Nerub zone. I suspect the Argent Tournament fights are probably stripped directly out of whatever they had for Azjol Nerub. The champion fight is probably the arena fight from Ulduar that was mentioned and theorised that it takes the place of where YS is now. Malygos story line felt premature, I suspect we were meant to continue from Dragonblight questing in Crystalsong that continued the story and filled in the gaps up to the fight with Malygos. Crystalsong may also have been involved as a staging ground to Azjol Nerub attacking from tunnels to the east of it (west Crystalsong).
I personally dislike using the comic to advance the plot line. I dislike the medium and don't really want to resort to having to read it. The recaps Emeraude posts here are a nice help but I'd really like a more in depth text version rather than a comic version and having to rely on second hand sources like wowwiki to fill in the gaps.
@Saurfang thing: Fair enough, I'd not realised it was an orc model. His body was thoroughly burned up though, I don't buy that they stole him off the battlefield after unbuckling all his armour. That was the reason that you only get Bolvar's shield, he is removed from the battlefield, where as you get all of Saurfangs armour as he was incinerated where his body lie. If it is Saurfang I hope we get to fight with Varok again.
Originally Posted by Shadowed
The best part is, not only were you late in linking it, that's an April fools topic from 6 months ago.
I can actually excuse the lack of plot in Crystalsong. It's a mysterious zone to begin with, what with the World Tree there and the unclear magics that prevent Scourge from entering it. The strange satyrs and the singing crystal trees luckily work quite well as unexplained strangeness.
Although I found it quite horrible that the Argent Crusade allowed goblins to chop down ancient Crystalsong tree spirits for planks.
I can actually excuse the lack of plot in Crystalsong. It's a mysterious zone to begin with, what with the World Tree there and the unclear magics that prevent Scourge from entering it. The strange satyrs and the singing crystal trees luckily work quite well as unexplained strangeness.
Although I found it quite horrible that the Argent Crusade allowed goblins to chop down ancient Crystalsong tree spirits for planks.
The quest text makes it plain the goblins weren't letting the Crusade know how they were sourcing their materials.
2) Revenge. Also not likely. Mal'ganis is calculating-sociopath evil, not crazed unstable evil. He set himself up to be "killed" by Arthas in WC3, so he's probably not sweating whether Arthas made him look like a chump. And he's never interacted with Arthas past that event and doesn't have any reason for a personal grudge.
If I remember right, Mal'Ganis didn't actually expect Arthas to turn on him after. Yes, he let Arthas "kill" him at Stratholme, however, he was there when Arthas finally picked up Frostmourne. That's when Arthas trule thought he killed Mal'Ganis and that's when it was unexpected. This was the first step Arthas made towards being an independent Lich King and not just a puppet of the Legion
@Saurfang thing: Fair enough, I'd not realised it was an orc model. His body was thoroughly burned up though, I don't buy that they stole him off the battlefield after unbuckling all his armour. That was the reason that you only get Bolvar's shield, he is removed from the battlefield, where as you get all of Saurfangs armour as he was incinerated where his body lie. If it is Saurfang I hope we get to fight with Varok again.
I'd be willing to wager that a being that could create an entire army of undead, complete with a horde of patchwork (Patchwerk?) abominations would have little trouble creating a new orc body for a soul he stole. I'm not sure why undead, magic and space titans are happily accepted and yet, his body burned is set in stone.
I'd suggest that it is the differance between his body and a body. Its one thing to come across an undead orc it is another to come across an undead Saurfang Jr.
I'd be willing to wager that a being that could create an entire army of undead, complete with a horde of patchwork (Patchwerk?) abominations would have little trouble creating a new orc body for a soul he stole. I'm not sure why undead, magic and space titans are happily accepted and yet, his body burned is set in stone.
Absolutely. The original Death Knights were Orc souls placed into Human bodies. The "present day" Death Knight was semi-retcon into place.
If Gul'dan could place Orc souls into Human bodies, I'm positive Arthas could place Orc souls into Orc bodies with absolutely no difficulties.
We know proof positive that Arthas has Babyfang's soul. We know Arthas has plenty of spare corpses to animate. We know that Bolvar's corpse is missing (burned or taken). We know one of the visions of Yogg-Saron is Arthas tormenting a human - he even says "I will break you as I broke him." as an Orc walks 'on-screen.'
Based on the principle of Chekov's Gun and that we know 3.3 will be Icecrown, the likelihood of this plot thread being dropped is extremely low.
Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."
I personally dislike using the comic to advance the plot line. I dislike the medium and don't really want to resort to having to read it. The recaps Emeraude posts here are a nice help but I'd really like a more in depth text version rather than a comic version and having to rely on second hand sources like wowwiki to fill in the gaps.
Why such hate for the comic?
Wildstorm recently announced they're releasing another WoW comic series that's going to be Horde focused.
You should give them a chance, they're fun reads, and they certainly give us a better lore fix on a monthly basis then most of the novels do, or even the game itself does every 6 months for a new patch or novel.
And the artwork at times makes me giddy:
Last edited by Emeraude : 07/27/09 at 2:29 PM.
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What is the most important thing to you? Won't you grant me the pleasure of taking it away.
The comic should flesh out a story arc, not be the only source of what is going on. No one should have to buy a comic book to know the story of a character in a game, it should be optional. This is why Warcraft 3 and previous lore can be found in in-game books.
Plus that picture looks like Medivh meets Dragonball Z, but maybe thats just me.
Blizzzard has been busting their asses to reintroduce that character in Wrath. Mal'ganis had a bit part in WC3. He wasn't any more important to the story than, say, General Garithos. If you read that and thought "who?" you see my point. Having him show up in CoT: Strat is understandable because that's Arthas's story, but having him show up leading the Scarlet Onslaught is completely out of left field. Presumably Blizzard wants to make sure we know who he is.
Mal'ganis taking control of the Scourge would make a lot of sense. The dreadlords were put in charge of the Scourge at the end of the WC3 undead campaign, even if the Lich King is in control of the Scourge now. Dreadlords were an undead hero in WC3. They've been associated with undead since they were introduced.
When you defeat Mal'ganis in the Scarlet Onslaught quest, he's yelling about killing Arthas - "you'll never defeat the Lich King without my forces" and so on. There are three reasons someone would want to kill the Lich King:
1) Because it's in the rest of Azeroth's best interest. Vampire space demons don't care about Azeroth's best interest so that's out.
2) Revenge. Also not likely. Mal'ganis is calculating-sociopath evil, not crazed unstable evil. He set himself up to be "killed" by Arthas in WC3, so he's probably not sweating whether Arthas made him look like a chump. And he's never interacted with Arthas past that event and doesn't have any reason for a personal grudge.
3) To replace him.
He mentions specifically in the quest when hes porting out that the sole reason is for revenge. The taking over the Scourge afterwords is just something that comes with the revenge.
Originally Posted by Vaccine
I think it is clear they were over ambitious with content. The result is this Argent Tournament mess along with a whole host of unfinished or confusing plots. Sara anyone? I posted many many pages back that I think Sara was probably the Drakkaru of the AN zone/raid instance and we were actually trying to save her for some reason. She just makes no sense whatsoever randomly appearing in Ulduar. It is a shame as I really loved Nerubians and Anub'Arak, and was most looking forward to the Azjol Nerub zone. I suspect the Argent Tournament fights are probably stripped directly out of whatever they had for Azjol Nerub. The champion fight is probably the arena fight from Ulduar that was mentioned and theorised that it takes the place of where YS is now. Malygos story line felt premature, I suspect we were meant to continue from Dragonblight questing in Crystalsong that continued the story and filled in the gaps up to the fight with Malygos. Crystalsong may also have been involved as a staging ground to Azjol Nerub attacking from tunnels to the east of it (west Crystalsong).
I personally dislike using the comic to advance the plot line. I dislike the medium and don't really want to resort to having to read it. The recaps Emeraude posts here are a nice help but I'd really like a more in depth text version rather than a comic version and having to rely on second hand sources like wowwiki to fill in the gaps.
I think you are looking too into Sara. Maybe she was someone who was going to play a big role but it is just as likely she was in the end just meant to be the damsel in distress. The initial entrance for Azjol-Nerub was actually where the Wrathgate is now (you can see it on the concept map of Dragonblight) with some neutral town next to it. In the end Blizzard probably did just bite off more than they could chew.
The possibility of Saurfang Jr.'s body being preserved, while his armor remained at the Wrathgate, is viable. Just reconcile the lore with the medium.
Game Time/Physics
I don't think lore-time synchs with player-time, or game-time. The physics aren't exact either. Model representations also aren't indicative of player looting or item size.
[Examples: Players run up and loot heads all the time without change to the models of the npc's from which the heads are looted. Heads are looted instantly, without the decapitation being portrayed in any way, or any indicia of a burdensome carrying away of said head (nor all of the crap that players carry in their bags). Players loot multiple duplicate body parts from corpses without taking some of the items remaining, letting other players loot what's left. Players can switch ALL gear instantly out of combat. Illidan doesn't drop two Warglaives on every kill, despite the fact that you can damn well see his corpse holding both.
These are practical omissions. Parts of the story are thereby limited by the game mechanics. (Not going to touch developer intent as to the item drop issue.)]
That's fine, it's a game. There's either space within what is represented in-game to expand on lore events or there will be jarring retcons of events and portrayals of events where there is no such space.
The Body/Armor
There is such space provided for Saurfang Jr.'s body being taken by the Scourge:
Saurfang's body last appears at 2:48, next to Arthas. Arthas gets bombed at 3:15. No Saurfang Jr. body in sight. This assumes Arthas didn't move, that the bombing portrayed was sequential and not a montage of concurrent bombings, and that the depiction was accurate in the first place.
That's 27 seconds of arguably sequential time, plenty to work with in-game. (The Scourge apparently "loots their hounds.")
The body was never explicitly burned/destroyed and there was time to remove it. We can't therefore assume that either necessarily happened, however either are equally possible. I've also never seen anyone argue that equipping/unequipping/looting items should be represented and accomplished in "real time", but hey, go for it.
Bolivar
I'm more surprised people aren't making the implausibility argument more for Bolivar, where it hasn't been established that there's a safe way to avoid the blight. We get the draconic reference, presumably about Bolivar being alive, and a cutscene in Yogg which is also presumed to be Bolivar, but there's no confirmation on either. Without more, Bolivar's body not being burned smells of a retcon.
Last edited by Spleen : 07/27/09 at 4:54 PM.
[19:36:45.096] Spleen gains 15 energy from Spleen's Tricks of the Trade
[19:36:45.408] Osseric gains Tricks of the Trade from Spleen
The comic should flesh out a story arc, not be the only source of what is going on. No one should have to buy a comic book to know the story of a character in a game, it should be optional. This is why Warcraft 3 and previous lore can be found in in-game books.
Plus that picture looks like Medivh meets Dragonball Z, but maybe thats just me.
But lots of the novels/manga/comic has stuff you don't know about in-game. Rhonin/Krasus are 2 characters nobody knew before WotLK, but their entire backstories are pretty much developed in novel form. Nobody would know Arthas and Ner'zhul are separate now unless they read the latest Arthas novelization. Trag Highborn who made an appearance in 3.2 again is a character who was only known via the Sunwell manga/Warcraft Legends manga.
I guess people just don't like the format, and we can leave it at that. >.>
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For the lurking Phoenix Wright faithful.
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I think a lot of people take exception that so much lore for the game is driven by sources outside of the game and, for the most part, unattainable in any form in game. I'm all for expanding and flushing out the lore outside the game as they've done with the books.
For example, in game, I know Arthas is bad. I know about his internal conflicts and I know his general motivations and at a high level, his schemes. The book recently released extends this and adds to it. It's supplemental.
Conversely, from what's available solely in game, who the fuck is Sartharion? He was solely introduced and explained outside of the game world. There is no in game point of reference as to who he is, why he's bad or why we have to stop him, shiny purples aside. I think that's what drives too much of the comic book hate. They're using it too much as a lore introductory device that, without which, causes a jarring disconnect in game.
I think a lot of people take exception that so much lore for the game is driven by sources outside of the game and, for the most part, unattainable in any form in game. I'm all for expanding and flushing out the lore outside the game as they've done with the books.
For example, in game, I know Arthas is bad. I know about his internal conflicts and I know his general motivations and at a high level, his schemes. The book recently released extends this and adds to it. It's supplemental.
Conversely, from what's available solely in game, who the fuck is Sartharion? He was solely introduced and explained outside of the game world. There is no in game point of reference as to who he is, why he's bad or why we have to stop him, shiny purples aside. I think that's what drives too much of the comic book hate. They're using it too much as a lore introductory device that, without which, causes a jarring disconnect in game.
For the most part people who care about the story will at least read a summary of the book or comic though so it isn't as big of a thing. Your normal WoW player will only care about the purples the big bad dragon drops anyway and ignore mostly any story that's put in game. Ulduar's story for example is thrown in our faces yet I see so many players ask things like 'who are these Watchers? and 'What's an Old God?'. A book/comic allows them to go into much greater detail which adds to the story more for the people that do want the full lore since your normal player just wants to get through the game (Kaplan was going over this earlier this year).
I think it's a shame the Encyclopedia is severely underutilised. I personally hate the comic book medium -- because I hate to read the format of it and it literally hurts my eyes.
Heh, the last update was Vashj and Kael'thas. Blizzard certainly could put a lackey to work there...
[e]I've said it before, but it's completely worth saying it again. Emeraude's summaries are completely invaluable. Great service to the community. Thanks again for the work.
Originally Posted by arison
Everyone should start from the same place and rise based on their abilities, desires, and schedule. No one plays MMOs to *be* powerful, they play MMOs to *become* powerful. It's the journey, stupid. The rarer loot is, the more cherished it is when you get it, but only so long as there is a reasonable expectation to get it. The rarer loot is, the better it feels when you kill a boss or when $AWESOME_TRINKET drops.
I think a lot of people take exception that so much lore for the game is driven by sources outside of the game and, for the most part, unattainable in any form in game. I'm all for expanding and flushing out the lore outside the game as they've done with the books.
Originally Posted by Starfire
I think it's a shame the Encyclopedia is severely underutilised. I personally hate the comic book medium -- because I hate to read the format of it and it literally hurts my eyes.
My thoughts are somewhere between those replies - a comic might not be the right format to show that much of important storyline, while it fits well to books - many game universes have expanded themselves through additional media, usually books. Dragon Age uses this, and I remember a book that was attached to the second part of X: Beyond the Frontier (might not be that well-known outside Europe/Germany) and basically re-tells the events of the first game, while also strongly retconning it with additional characters, spreading out events etc. - not very deep, but entertaining, and rather well-written for a game tie-in by a semi-professional. Still, it was a book, and not a comic - I admit many of us, even the ones who grew up reading comic books, might not see that medium as "serious" enough to accept major plotlines fleshed out in this.
But lots of the novels/manga/comic has stuff you don't know about in-game. Rhonin/Krasus are 2 characters nobody knew before WotLK, but their entire backstories are pretty much developed in novel form. Nobody would know Arthas and Ner'zhul are separate now unless they read the latest Arthas novelization. Trag Highborn who made an appearance in 3.2 again is a character who was only known via the Sunwell manga/Warcraft Legends manga.
The difference is that those stories were independent of the game and had no real connection until they were added along with in-game lore. If a book comes out explaining that Hogger is behind the corruption of the Emerald Dream thats fine. But when the emerald dream is put in game people will have no clue what is going on and you can't just say 'go read the book'.
The difference is that those stories were independent of the game and had no real connection until they were added along with in-game lore. If a book comes out explaining that Hogger is behind the corruption of the Emerald Dream thats fine. But when the emerald dream is put in game people will have no clue what is going on and you can't just say 'go read the book'.
That would be explained when the Emerald Dream is put out though considering it would be a pretty major event when we go there. The Stormrage book next year will give us a lot of insight on the Emerald Dream for example but Blizzard won't leave it only to that book to explain it.
I'd be willing to wager that a being that could create an entire army of undead, complete with a horde of patchwork (Patchwerk?) abominations would have little trouble creating a new orc body for a soul he stole. I'm not sure why undead, magic and space titans are happily accepted and yet, his body burned is set in stone.
My point was his body was burnt up at the Wrathgate, if you're going for psychological affect a random orc body you made/came into possession of with a disembodied voice saying "Sup dad, its me, Junior!" isn't really the right effect, would probably get laughed off. Thats just me I guess. Whereas Bolvar would be clearly Bolvar which adds shock value, Saurfang would be looking like a completely different orc. I guess the two may be destined for the Ebon Blade, or I did like the idea posted before that one of them becomes the new Lich King but I think thats a bit far fetched. I suppose they could get turned back, help in the Arthas fight and when its over, pick up Frostmourne. Ner'zhul with Arthas gone comes back and whisks them away to brood, plot and plan till we need a new bad guy.
As for the comic it is the medium I don't like, the ones I've read in the past haven't done anything for me and the web comics I used to read drove my opinion down. Maybe I'll pick up one of the anthology's sometime.
Originally Posted by Shadowed
The best part is, not only were you late in linking it, that's an April fools topic from 6 months ago.
My thoughts are somewhere between those replies - a comic might not be the right format to show that much of important storyline, while it fits well to books - many game universes have expanded themselves through additional media, usually books. Dragon Age uses this, and I remember a book that was attached to the second part of X: Beyond the Frontier (might not be that well-known outside Europe/Germany) and basically re-tells the events of the first game, while also strongly retconning it with additional characters, spreading out events etc. - not very deep, but entertaining, and rather well-written for a game tie-in by a semi-professional. Still, it was a book, and not a comic - I admit many of us, even the ones who grew up reading comic books, might not see that medium as "serious" enough to accept major plotlines fleshed out in this.
It would be really cool if Blizzard could include little booklets just going over some plot/backstory for different zones and instances with each expansion. I really have read the story parts of my WC2 and WC3 manuals more than is probably normal. Even if it were just summaries rather than creative writing. I do understand there are problems with that type of media/distribution and why such a thing is unlikely (at least outside collector's editions).
My point was his body was burnt up at the Wrathgate, if you're going for psychological affect a random orc body you made/came into possession of with a disembodied voice saying "Sup dad, its me, Junior!" isn't really the right effect, would probably get laughed off. Thats just me I guess. Whereas Bolvar would be clearly Bolvar which adds shock value, Saurfang would be looking like a completely different orc. I guess the two may be destined for the Ebon Blade, or I did like the idea posted before that one of them becomes the new Lich King but I think thats a bit far fetched. I suppose they could get turned back, help in the Arthas fight and when its over, pick up Frostmourne. Ner'zhul with Arthas gone comes back and whisks them away to brood, plot and plan till we need a new bad guy.
Don't forget that Sylvanas also managed to "recreate" her original body (okay, almost ;-) ) from her ghostly Banshee form. So it may be possible that Arthas was able to bring back Saurfang in his old look as well just from his spirit. All Ghosts in Wow look like their former selves, so why should they look different when brought back to life ?
It would be really cool if Blizzard could include little booklets just going over some plot/backstory for different zones and instances with each expansion. I really have read the story parts of my WC2 and WC3 manuals more than is probably normal. Even if it were just summaries rather than creative writing. I do understand there are problems with that type of media/distribution and why such a thing is unlikely (at least outside collector's editions).
It all comes down to resources, and the effectiveness of using certain resources in a particular way. This is EJ. The people here are well-educated and mature individuals with a lot of gaming experience prior to WoW and a great likelihood of moving onto wholly different gaming experiences when WoW has run it's course. We're going to ask for stronger narrative and we're going to ask for something that entertains US.
The problem is that we are not really Blizzard's target when it comes to compelling narrative. Walt Simonson and Richard Knaak are famous for writing young adult fiction, and the works that they have produced for Blizzard match that level of complexity. Compare the winner of the recent Creative Writing contest with Knaak's work or the comics and you'll find a more mature grade of storytelling that doesn't assume the reader is at a junior-high reading level.
Was it Jeff Kaplan who pointed out that they have a 512 letter limit to tell a quest with? And that a lot of the attempts to shoehorn larger amounts of narrative into the game are usually written off as 'annoying' by the playerbase? Kaplan makes it clear that the players don't play the game to read a book; they play the game to PLAY. That we are all people who strangely enjoy reading while we play makes us into oddities.
So Blizzard could try to get more narrative into the game in an active fashion, (and while that would make us happy, it would aggravate all the plebeians who weren't going to read it in the first place) or they could do what they're doing now and make it a multimedia experience by marketing novels and comic books that tie into the narrative of the game. Should it be necessary to play the comic book game or the novel game in order to understand the MMO game? No, and Blizzard's made some missteps with using this method to introduce Varian and intentionally leaving out any sense of reason for fighting Sartharion. It can be done better, and since Wrath seems to be the start of it, I expect it will make a lot more sense when the next expansion comes out in tandem with the multimedia experience, and Blizzard's shown a history of learning from their mistakes.
I'm waiting for the comics to get collected into trade format so I can read them all at one go. My issue with the format has everything to do with the inconvenience of getting very little actual story from each single issue. Oh, and the irresponsibly shitty dialogue might have something to do with it too.
Don't forget that Sylvanas also managed to "recreate" her original body
I think the most logical explanation is that her body was still lying around/buried somewhere, and/or possibly in Scourge hands, for later "use", until Sylvanas broke free, somehow learned of her body's location, and stole it back.
Originally Posted by Mr. Crow
Was it Jeff Kaplan who pointed out that they have a 512 letter limit to tell a quest with? And that a lot of the attempts to shoehorn larger amounts of narrative into the game are usually written off as 'annoying' by the playerbase? Kaplan makes it clear that the players don't play the game to read a book; they play the game to PLAY. That we are all people who strangely enjoy reading while we play makes us into oddities.
They could include more chat options for certain quest givers, though, either the actual quest only becoming available after you read (or just clicked through) the character's story, or just as an option below the quest offer, completely optional, only for those who are interested.
Was it Jeff Kaplan who pointed out that they have a 512 letter limit to tell a quest with?
Technically, they don't. There's quite a few quests in the game where said limitation is overcome via the use of dialogue "options" (Just different ways of saying "Next page"). The limitation exists only for the content of the quest window, not for the quest itself.
Technically, they don't. There's quite a few quests in the game where said limitation is overcome via the use of dialogue "options" (Just different ways of saying "Next page"). The limitation exists only for the content of the quest window, not for the quest itself.
I love lore. And I hate these "Click me 10 times to hear my story" quests. We're trained by Blizzard to accept bites of lore. This shoves a piece which is often too big to chew at us.
The correct solution, which they've applied frequently, is "Go talk to the guy across the hall" quests. You get two quest texts, smaller XP/cash rewards, and feel more tied in. I'm most fond of the "Go perform X", you get out there and talk to the guy you're supposed to rescue/kill/whatever and learn there's more to the story, complete the quest at them rather than rescuing/killing/whatever-ing them, and get a follow-up quest on the more complex topic.
My main issues with things like Sartharion is they didn't even expend 5 characters of text, much less 512. Give us even one quest. Better yet, give us a handful. "Go kill the 3 drakes", "Go kill Sartharion", "Break some Twilight Drake Eggs", "Bring back some Obsidian Sanctum lava", honestly whatever. We've had 5 quests for a single 5man Dungeon and none for raids? I'm tired of the "They live in a cave and therefore default to evil, we're legit in murder and theft in this circumstance." Give us some (a-)moral justification, please.
Blizzard is so careful to cookie-crumb-quest between zones in X-pacs (Go from Howling Fjord to Dragonblight to deliver X and here's a free flight!), yet they cannot even cookie-crumb-quest instances? Hell, in Vanilla we had quests to go into Naxx and kill trash. In Wrath we have... no quests.
The problem is neither "They can't do it", nor "They won't do it." They can and have in the past. The problem is "They are not currently doing it." Having been shown they can, then not doing it causes a huge obvious lack. If we didn't have past expectations then we wouldn't be stressing it not. Blizzard sets our expectations through their actions.
External media is great amplification and expansion of content. But the kernels should be in the game. We have Varian in the game, expand him in comics, boom - it all worked well. We have Med'an in comics, but not in the game - he'll be a sticking point when they do throw him in - many/most folk will be "Med'an who?" Hell, Bolvar just stood around the Throne room punching Ony in the face until Wrath, and I feel more invested in him than many "lore" characters.
TLDR: External media should supplement game lore, not generate it from scratch or be sole repository.
Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."
07/27/09, 5:48 AM
