World of Warcraft - Lore & Storyline discussion [SPOILERS] - Page 196

Leviathon · 04/14/09, 10:27 AM

Originally Posted by Karamoon

Jaina might have better luck preventing war if she actually worked as a mediator and tried to resolve some of the sources of friction between the two sides - she's not really trying to mediate anything, she just wants the Alliance to bow down and stomach whatever the Horde throws at them, regardless of how repugnant it is. According to Jaina, the alliance should just tolerate twisted plague experiments on live (at the start) human victims, turning dead humans into abominations, outright attacks in Ashenvale, Hillsbrad, and Northrend, all of the offenses against Wrynn personally, the betrayal at the Wrathgate, and all of the other Horde offenses.

"Mediating" by demanding that the Alliance ignore all of the open acts of war and horrible atrocities committed by the Horde is not something that can work in the long run. Like in the trailer, she seems to think that outright attacks by the Horde don't count as long as Thrall mutters mild disapproval after the fact, but it's clear that no one else buys that.

I don't see how you can call Varian a 'rabid dog' unless you're going to call the Horde a batch of rabid dogs under a leader who can't hold a leash. The trailer really sums this up pretty well - Rohin surprises him by inviting the Horde, but he doesn't do anything more than ask why they were invited. The horde representatives offer him insults and draw weapons on him, so he fights back. But somehow Wrynn is a 'rabid dog' because he doesn't bow down before a direct attack on his person?

Aside from Theramore, I don't see any reason for any Alliance members to want out of the Alliance. If nothing else, there is little to distinguish the Forsaken from the Scourge morally, and no, saying 'oh, but the humans they experiment on were probably mostly in the Scarlet Crusade' doesn't change that.

While Garrosh instigated it partly it happened after Varian said quite angrily "What are they doing here?" and there is the fact that Garrosh is only the commander of the orcish forces in Northrend and not the leader overall. In the end though both sides are in the wrong in their own ways. The Forsaken argument happened about 20 pages ago so I am not starting that back up.

Personally I would prefer we discuss the lore more on a unbiased level rather than letting our personal preferences get in the way.

Mr. Crow · 04/14/09, 10:41 AM

When it comes down to it, I think Thrall is going to have plot immunity, because no one else in the Horde has any reason to stick around if he's gone. The Tauren and the Darkspear, as already mentioned, only joined because of Thrall's goodwill. The Forsaken were allowed to pool their resources because Thrall sensed a kinship in their suffering, and that extends to the Blood Elves as well. Garrosh has none of that compassion, and I think all of the non-orcs in the Horde know that.

But things can't stay at the status quo, where Thrall pulls back from conflict with the Alliance out of his affection for Jaina and an overarching desire for peace. Killing Thrall is a dealbreaker for the Horde, but going to war with the Alliance stands to benefit the Horde far more.

Thrall will be given a reason to go to war. He may not like it, but if he realizes it's the only way for his people to survive, he'll do it. He may defer actual leadership of the offensive to someone better suited -- when the Gates of Ahn'Qiraj opened, he deferred command of the Might of Kalimdor to Saurfang rather than lead the offensive himself.

As for Varian, he finds his opposite number in Thrall. Velen will likely have nothing to say to him, but Tyrande will appreciate the assistance against a new Horde offensive, Magni will be approving if for no other reason than the Stormpike Imperative in Alterac Valley, and Mekkatorque will go along with whatever Magni says. Jaina is just straight outvoted.

I have a lot of trouble justifying Jaina remaining in a leadership role in the Alliance, because she has been willing to keep the same stalemate as Thrall this whole time, and that's not what most of the present Alliance leadership is interested in.

Much as I might like her, Jaina might have to die, as it gives Thrall a real reason to go to war with the Alliance and it lets Varian quell the only voice of dissension amongst the leaders of the Alliance.

Enova · 04/14/09, 10:42 AM

The thing is, Jaina is not exactly asking anyone to stomach all the crap the Horde is doing. She's asking Varian (and Varian alone, because it's pretty damn obvious that Thrall has just enough common sense left, and Garrosh is not swayed by her) not to go start an all out war on each other on the Lich King's doorstep. Unlike every other enemy we've faced before (well, maybe not unlike the Silithid), both Yogg Saron and the Lich King revel in causing and benefiting from their opponents' petty quarrels, and there's a lot of those going around lately.

We don't really see Jaina interfere with the Alliance military politics concerning Outland or the old Azeroth, because everything they're fighting over back there is territory and resources that can be lost and recovered. Losing ground in Northrend means steadily heading towards unrecoverable defeat and possibly the destruction or enslaving of all mortal races.

Leviathon · 04/14/09, 10:48 AM

Clearly Varian is being mind controlled by Yogg Saron and is secretly a agent of the Scourge also.

But I doubt we will see Jaina die although it would push the factions to war quicker. I can see Jaina breaking from the Alliance being possible also which would get rid of the mediator (not that she is having much effect anymore). Varian just outright declaring war soon I can see happening and Garrosh would be all for it.

Feanoro · 04/14/09, 11:03 AM

They really need to clarify Jaina's position, she's looking worse and worse as she effectively says, "Varian, trust the Horde despite attacks and atrocities that Thrall magically somehow doesn't know about. Trust Thrall, even though he's either ignorant of the Horde's acts and therefore incompetent, or is fully aware and approves all these things. Honest, we won't get stabbed in the back again!"

Meanwhile, Varian's position is reasonable, given what he knows. The Horde has demonstrated they're treacherous, why on earth would he accept them as allies in Icecrown, when they're likely to turn on him?

downnola · 04/14/09, 11:04 AM

Originally Posted by Kumar

Many people seem to beleive that eventually Thrall will die in this fight, I don't see that happening. Thrall is much more embed in the Horde players than Varian is with the Alliance, and as we talk about casual player base, I can't see Thrall dying anytime soon as good for Blizzard.

I still think that by the end of 3.3, Garrosh and Varian will see the folly of their ways. I really doubt Blizzard is preparing Garrosh to be same as Gromm. maybe there are other things at play here.

A lot of characters have gone through a lot of suffering, Thrall for example. His parents were murdered, his name Thrall stands for "slave" in human tongue, he was raised as a Gladiator, he saw his friend Hellscream become victim to the curse and die before his eyes. Or take Sylvannas, she has suffered a lot too.

I don't see anything that shows Varian went through a lot more death and sorrow than others like Thrall.

There is also an important difference between Varian and Garrosh. Varian is the leader of the Alliance, Garrosh is not the leader of the Horde.

It wasn't my point to compare who has gone through the most, I was more or less just outlining the endless stream of tragic events he's had to endure his entire life. I think if you compare their lives it can be argued who's had to go through the most, but you can't argue his story is certainly one of the saddest in Warcraft. About Garrosh, he may not be Warchief, but his attitude and actions have a heavy impact on Horde politics. He's significant enough to accompany Thrall to these council and summons at least. Also, I'm not sure if I'd call Varian the leader of the Alliance. Leader of Stormwind yes, but Alliance as a whole, no.

4LV · 04/14/09, 11:08 AM

Did Varian really say "May this Death God take you" as he ported out? His attitude reminds me more and more of Arthas Menethil..

Enova · 04/14/09, 11:14 AM

Haha, no way, you just unwittingly revealed the villain in the next expansion

Leaflock · 04/14/09, 11:16 AM

Originally Posted by Karamoon

Varian cuts down swarms of filthy orcs astride his rainbow-crapping pink unicorn of justice

Seriously, it's pretty clear from the trailer that Rhonin invited the Horde and Alliance to separate meetings because of the clear animosity on both sides. Thrall and Garrosh just showed up early which complicated the plan a bit.

What's interesting here is that this is the first trailer for a raid instance that has advanced the story rather than just providing backstory about an ancient locale (BT, Sunwell for instance). 3.2 is also one of the first patches I can think of where the content has been kept secret for so long (the general BC progression was known from the outset, and Sunwell was announced not too long after).

We've been speculating about what raid instance is most logical for 3.2, but the only reason I can think of for keeping it secret is that it contains a pretty major (and possibly unexpected) plot point. To me, it seems like some significant event is going to be necessary to unite both factions against Icecrown by 3.3, since it's clear the Horde and Alliance leadership are unable or unwilling to resolve things on their own as they stand post-Wrathgate. Or, perhaps 3.2 might be pvp-oriented?

Yogg-Saron's visions (at least, in the sound files-- we'll find out this week) seem to possibly suggest that, in some capacity, he's been behind many major acts of antagonism on Azeroth. Once we kill Yogg-Saron, I'd expect a bigger clue as to 3.2.

Désespoir · 04/14/09, 11:20 AM

Is it possible that Jaina acts on purpose for the Council of Tirisfal ?

Aegwynn being very close of her, I think they could both have a plan concerning the next Guardian. Plan that would need to keep the current situation as it is as long as possible (especially if the new Guardian is not a Human as suggested by Metzen).

Vaccine · 04/14/09, 11:35 AM

Originally Posted by downnola

Also, I'm not sure if I'd call Varian the leader of the Alliance. Leader of Stormwind yes, but Alliance as a whole, no.

Thats an issue with the writing really. He and Jaina are the only Alliance leaders we ever see, likewise with Thrall and Sylvannas. I was especially disappointed that Cairn didn't come back into it as WotLK was touted as discovering the Tauren's origins through the Taunka but they seem to have been sidelined as another minor faction.

It seems the disconnect between people here is that the people supporting the Alliance and Wyrnn's actions see the Royal Apothecary Society and the Wrathgate's events as the Hordes doing and can't separate the two, which is also what Wyrnn's attitude is (a Horde is a Horde, they all must die). Horde see it as a completely different faction that they were betrayed by under the command of the burning legion who attacked them as well as the Alliance.

Alerian · 04/14/09, 11:38 AM

If it's at all true that the Coliseum is supposed to be a major part of 3.2's raiding scenarios, then perhaps we'll have a situation like Hyjal, except featuring current lore characters that drive the instance, rather than past NPCs.

Originally Posted by Leaflock

Yogg-Saron's visions (at least, in the sound files-- we'll find out this week) seem to possibly suggest that, in some capacity, he's been behind many major acts of antagonism on Azeroth. Once we kill Yogg-Saron, I'd expect a bigger clue as to 3.2.

I'm not 100% sure that we'll have more info about 3.2 after killing YS since any quest text would likely have already been discovered. There is still the question of who is the unnamed "prisoner" that was being tortured. That might reveal some interesting things.

• Jessamy · 04/14/09, 11:48 AM

I've spent some of my time waiting for 3.1 leveling another alt, and the interaction between the Defias and the Stormwind nobility in the various quest storylines reminded me how little Varian deserves his leadership position. The Defias are bad guys and traitors, sure. Retaliation against the citizenry isn't a solution to their woes. But they're a union of masons, and were responsible for the rebuilding of Stormwind. Their disillusionment with the crown came from not being paid for their labor and materials. The entire city except for the harbor (and maybe the cathedral) is stolen goods, and the Defias are justly upset. When Onyxia was the power behind the throne, playing Stormwind and the Defias against each other, it made a modicum of sense -- but now?

Machinator · 04/14/09, 11:53 AM

I am more and more convinced that there is not a 3.2 raid since, aside from one quote from one person, there isn't much evidence for it (link if you have some), and a bunch against it. This would explain why we can't find links from Ulduar to it. But there are many possibilities of how Yogg and Arthas are connected, saronite being a key one.

Entropie · 04/14/09, 11:53 AM

Originally Posted by Vaccine

It seems the disconnect between people here is that the people supporting the Alliance and Wyrnn's actions see the Royal Apothecary Society and the Wrathgate's events as the Hordes doing and can't separate the two, which is also what Wyrnn's attitude is (a Horde is a Horde, they all must die). Horde see it as a completely different faction that they were betrayed by under the command of the burning legion who attacked them as well as the Alliance.

Likewise no one ever blames the Alliance for Arthas because he is(was) a human, royalty even.

I fear that the discussion is becoming more biased every page.

Jaina as "Varian, trust the Horde despite attacks and atrocities that Thrall magically somehow doesn't know about. Trust Thrall, even though he's either ignorant of the Horde's acts and therefore incompetent, or is fully aware and approves all these things. Honest, we won't get stabbed in the back again!"

Varian:"I keep seeing people say that Varian is a rabid dog, yet in this recent trailer he didn't get violent (annoyed, but not rabid at all) until provoked, and honestly if Garrosh thinks he can needle a guy after losing his best friend to their faction, he deserves the beating he's asking for"

Because letting personal feelings like pride get in the way of what is good for the Alliance is a part of being a good leader. What I cannot understand is how Jaina is being portrayed as feeble and out-of-touch, while she see the true danger: Arthas. While Garrosh and Varian focus on their own 'petty' problems. Varian's past has NOTHING to do with the fact that they should stand tall against the scourge.

Aware of the danger of analogies, I will still use one. The Lord of the Rings. Gandalf tries to unite the races and countries of Middle-Earth against Sauron. Whatever past transgressions forged the relations as they were then.