World of Warcraft - Lore & Storyline discussion [SPOILERS] - Page 199

Kumar · 04/14/09, 6:21 PM

Originally Posted by Keldin

If I remember correctly Varian and Arthas were friends in childhood and they both shared some beliefs. Like the orc question. This is in the new Arthas book. Theres a spoiler page some pages back.

The new Lich King? After all, something has to happen if the Scourge has to be there after we deal with Arthas.

Approximately a second later, I'd say. Besides, it won't go down like that - Garrosh will be closing for the final blow and Thrall will sigh, say something like "Your father respected me, eventually. Why do the Hellscreams always have to do things the hard way?" and thunderclap Garrosh to the nearest wall and then pin him there with earthen spikes.

Yeah, yeah the arena battle. Someone who can flatten castles in a fit of pique doesn't lose duels to some meathead unless he wants to. Sooner or later Garrosh's "Son of Hellscream" line of credit is going to run out and Thrall will end up having to smack some sense into him.

Or Thrall could just show Garrosh that he is going down the same path that his father went down. I mean we had the whole event in Nagrand, why not another one for 3.2?

Unity · 04/14/09, 6:27 PM

Originally Posted by Typhon

Are you talking about "The Broken Front"?

The Horde texts for this one make it pretty clear the Horde did actually attack the Alliance, it's not just distrust leading to accidental fighting:

(speaking to beserker)
Gathering... information.... on the Scourge.
Alliance forces appeared...
We took cover - waited until they attacked the gate,
then, we hit them from the rear.
Pinched between us... and the Scourge... it was too much for them...

(handin)
They saw the Alliance assaulting the gate and they attacked them from behind...
<After a brief pause, Korm bursts into laughter.>
THAT is what it means to be HORDE!
Were it not for them, the Alliance maggots would likely be holding that gate!
Their boldness has bought us precious time.

Assassyn · 04/14/09, 6:32 PM

Originally Posted by Feanoro

All leaders are correctly held responsible for those they command, whether they were aware or not of those actions, and if they were unaware, they're additionally considered derelict in their duties. It's unnecessary for Thrall to personally tour every area the Horde controls, but he should have a much better idea of what's going on than he does. I realize in BC Sylvanas changed from "Kill the whole world!" to "OK, my sisters shouldn't suffer Undeath... Right, stop the plague research!" Shouldn't she have shut down the Apothecary?* It's really streching credibility to claim someone as untrusting and suspicious as Sylvanas didn't notice plague development continuing merrily in Undercity, or Varimathras having odd amounts of conversations with Putress. At the very least, after officially ending the New Plague, she should have come clean to Thrall. Covering things up only makes her (and by extension Thrall) look completely guilty in game.

* I grant you, game mechanics might have been difficult, but it wouldn't be hard to implement higher level content saying "You were unaware the Society was commanded to stop by the Dark Lady. You will not be punished if you demonstrate you only acted in ignorance."

Couldn't most of this also be applied to Kel'thuzad and the Cult of the Damned? Granted he was Kirin Tor, but at that time they were more of an alliance faction than a neutral city floating over northrend.

Valinnor · 04/14/09, 6:48 PM

I found the Metzen quote of which I'd been thinking:

I don’t think Jaina is really gonna have any legs to stand on in terms of keeping the peace. I don’t think Jaina is going to have a lot of success in negotiating any peace accords any time soon. I’m sure it’s really heartbreaking to her because she knows Thrall and she knows what drives [him] and she knows that essentially he is a really noble guy. He’s watching as things are playing out, that are really starting to tear away at the stability of the Horde and that’s terrifying to him. We shall see what he does.
[ 32:24 ]

This is from BlizzCast Episode 7 and I was mistaken about the 'peacemakers dying off' comment. That must have been something I'd read on here, but at any rate I think Metzen's comment is highly relevant to the trailer we all just saw. It seems clear that Jaina isn't going to be able to stop the march toward ratcheting up tensions. What's less clear, though, is what's going to happen to Thrall and Jaina and their relationship in this situation. Initially I was of the mind that Thrall should be killed off, but I've been convinced in this thread that to do that would be devastating to the lore in-game. Thrall is one of the last heroes from WCIII that is still around in a big way. I'm thinking more that Thrall is going to do a lot of things he doesn't want to do. This could include a lot of alternate scenarios which I'll leave to the imagination.

Thrall and Varian and Jaina are not the only leaders in this game. We've not seen much influence that other Horde leaders have on this situation (can you say Sylvannas?) or the leaders of the Alliance. I would love to have some intervention of other forces who could be other factions or even the dragons. The Reds have a stake in the conflict with Arthas but have not expressed interest in Yogg-Saron as of yet. Last time relations were this bad between 'allies' it was in Day of the Dragon when Lord Prestor was sowing seeds of discontent among the human kingdoms. At that point Krasus took a hand in events and we know what happened. But now there are certainly seeds of discontent among allies along with an existential battle with the Lich King and an Old God which is going to happen. I'm noticing a conspicuous lack of dragons in this scenario even though the stakes are higher now then they were in DotD.

On a side note, it would be freaking badass if Deathwing was whispering in someone's ear...

Jaete · 04/14/09, 7:12 PM

Originally Posted by Bloo Driver

There's also several quests in Icecrown that indicate (from the Alliance side) that the Horde attacked the Alliance from behind while they were assaulting another Scourge strongpoint.

In Icecrown the factions are basically in open war. The reasons aren't explained very clearly (so I could be wrong), but the idea seems to be that after the Undercity ordeal both Horde and Alliance simply say fuck it, if the other side wants war they'll get it, and it deteriorates into what you see there.

xmod2 · 04/14/09, 7:17 PM

Originally Posted by Assassyn

Couldn't most of this also be applied to Kel'thuzad and the Cult of the Damned? Granted he was Kirin Tor, but at that time they were more of an alliance faction than a neutral city floating over northrend.

As well as Arthas.

As for 3.2 raids, wasn't there a leaked expansion list that has been followed pretty closely (google "list of future expansions")? In those notes, Gilneas and Grim Batol are both parts of the Maelstrom expansion. Note: These may (and probably) have been discredited since then.

Dreading a possible Troll raid, I wonder what their plans are for 'sub'-25 man raiding now that they have Normal modes of each raid? The previous Troll raids all consisted of lower player caps than the main storyline raids. Having a ZA like Gundrak raid doesn't have to interfere with the main 3 act storyline at all.

Darksaber · 04/14/09, 7:18 PM

After this latest trailer I really want to be able to renounce my character's affiliation with Stormwind and fly the Theramore flag during the Argent Tournament or something like that. I do of course realize that conflict is the way to keep the game going, but I really want to Arthas smack down Garrosh and Varian so that Thrall and Jaina can work things out to work together. Won't happen, but I can at least imagine.

bv728 · 04/14/09, 7:32 PM

Originally Posted by Kumar

The new Lich King? After all, something has to happen if the Scourge has to be there after we deal with Arthas.

Notice that Varian isn't wielding his old swords in the new trailers - he's wielding some new blade, which I believe uses the 2-hander animations (at work, can't check).

Wonder which Legendary 2-Hander he's gonna wind up with.

Kumar · 04/14/09, 7:54 PM

On a side note, it would be freaking badass if Deathwing was whispering in someone's ear...

And why not, if the 3.2 raid is Grim Batol, that is a good possibility.

Katria · 04/14/09, 7:55 PM

Originally Posted by Darksaber

After this latest trailer I really want to be able to renounce my character's affiliation with Stormwind and fly the Theramore flag during the Argent Tournament or something like that. I do of course realize that conflict is the way to keep the game going, but I really want to Arthas smack down Garrosh and Varian so that Thrall and Jaina can work things out to work together. Won't happen, but I can at least imagine.

I don't get the love affair with Switzerland (err, Jaina and Theramore). Varian, as far as I can see, is not an unreasonable guy, he's just experienced some very unreasonable things.

In the trailer, he is astonished by the Horde's presence there, but he doesn't draw his weapon first. Garrosh does. And, more notably, Thrall does nothing to stop him. In Varian's eyes, how can this be anything other than passive approval at least? Varian, being the warrior-king that he is, is not about to back down from a threat from some green-skin. What is he supposed to do? Cower behind Jaina's skirts wailing "please make the bad man stop and let's talk peace"? Then when the fight is broken up, Garrosh calls the humans cowards (who stabbed who in the back in Icecrown?), and again Thrall says NOTHING.

Sure, after the fight is broken up and Varian is teleported out, Thrall gives Garrosh a dressing down over his behavior. But Varian doesn't know that. Thrall didn't have the balls to restrain Garrosh and show Varian that his behavior is not what the Horde is about.

The Horde betrayed the Alliance at the Wrathgate (not only that, but now we know the Alliance losses there total more than those killed by the Scourge!). Giving the Horde the benefit of the doubt (we were betrayed from within!), he confronts Putress and sees that the undead capital city, one of the major cities in the Horde, is used to torture and experiment on humans. Then again, in icecrown, Horde cowardly attacked the Alliance from behind while the Alliance was fighting the Scourge.

Why does the Horde deserve the benefit of the doubt again? What reason does Varian have to trust them or want to work with them? It's all well and good to rationalize the Horde's behavior form the all-knowing point of view we players have. But from what Varian knows, the Horde is at least as much of a threat as Arthas. I mean, what is the point of teaming up with the Horde to fight Arthas when he just knows the Horde will stab the Alliance in the back at the first opportunity?

The Horde are in the wrong, and thus it is up to the Horde to take great steps to set out an olive branch to Varian and the Alliance to patch things up. If the best they can do is for Thrall to send his girlfriend to talk to Varian and beg for him to join the Horde, then they can't be that sorry about what has happened, and are unwilling to show that they will punish those responsible for the crimes committed (imprisoning those responsible for ordering the attack on the Alliance, imrpisoning/executing publically those allied with Putress since he and the dread lord didn't act alone, etc.). The Horde need to give the Alliance reason to trust them, and they haven't taken strong action to make that happen.

Sure, in a perfect world, Varian would be a saint and see past their differences and accept the Horde as brothers so they can all join hands and sing Kumbaya. But the Horde's actions lead any sane leader to be strongly distrustful of them. And as far as his "let the death god have them" comment...yeah, I kinda agree. Allies that will stab you in the back are not allies at all, things in Icecrown would be far simpler with the Horde removed. It's not like Arthas will be defeated by combined forces...unless raid groups can be cross-faction in 3.3. To be honest, what is needed against the Scourge is a small group of elite fighters...the reason for the Argent Tournament is to find just those individuals. An army of scrubs is just more soldiers in the Lich King's army when they fall. So I'm not so sure that combining the forces of the Horde and Alliance are necessary for victory in any case.

terrian · 04/14/09, 8:06 PM

Originally Posted by xmod2

As for 3.2 raids, wasn't there a leaked expansion list that has been followed pretty closely (google "list of future expansions")? In those notes, Gilneas and Grim Batol are both parts of the Maelstrom expansion. Note: These may (and probably) have been discredited since then.

While I don't think I've ever seen the original author (Reinjin on Allakhazam) admit that the list is fake, it almost certainly is one. It's hard to actually do a search on the Alla forums to see if he actually admitted the fake, because forum searches are limited to Premium Accounts there.

There are two older segments of discussion regarding that list in these threads: Wrath of Lich King Stuff (was 'Blizzcon' thread) and http://elitistjerks.com/f15/t30118-w...27/#post913681

The list claims to be from 2003, but it first appeared on Allakhazam's forums in September 2007. Blizzcon 2007 (Which was where Wrath was announced) occurred the month before: August 2007. That announcement included zone information and layout. Even if the author didn't use the (plentiful) Blizzcon information, it was possible to establish a fairly solid "Northrend Expansion" and a supposed "Maelstrom Expansion" follow-up via the RPG sourcebooks and information from WC2 and WC3.

Almost every zone listed was "known" to exist, or could be surmised to exist, following the announcement of the Draenei as the new alliance race in Burning Crusade (2006). The first "proof" that this list even MIGHT be real would be the supposed "Maw of Oblivion" and "Burning Citadel" from the final listed expansion; two zones that (as far as I'm aware) do not exist in any currently released lore or sourcebooks.. and due to their position in the list, we won't see them in any form for many years. Even if we suppose that the list is legitimate there's nothing to suggest that Blizzard could not deviate from it.. It IS just a list, after all.

Originally Posted by bv728

Notice that Varian isn't wielding his old swords in the new trailers - he's wielding some new blade, which I believe uses the 2-hander animations (at work, can't check).

Regarding the sword he uses, it's an elven sword from the manga.

Shadout · 04/14/09, 8:31 PM

I'll be disappointed if Warcraft overall is heading toward a permanent war state. I like how its more of a cold war scenario, turning into skirmishes and sometimes full scale war once in a while.
Compared to Warhammer (and obviously Warhammer Online) which are pretty much built up around eternal war, although it (imo, I know lots of Warhammer fans will disagree) feels silly and 'unrealistic' to have a mindless war going on pretty much forever. Its a lot more interesting with dynamic alliances building and breaking up, international relations, politics etc.
Now we wont be able to break the two in-game main alliances of course, not in WoW 1 at least, but Blizz can easily make them split up somewhat if they wanted to, wouldn't exactly be the first time the in-game mechanics are different from the lore.

Instead they seem focused on going into the permanent war mode, especially considering Metzens statement about that intent on last years Blizzcon (where I also believe he mentioned the idea of getting rid of Thrall, thought I might be wrong).

Kuthumii · 04/14/09, 8:57 PM

Originally Posted by Katria

The Horde betrayed the Alliance at the Wrathgate (not only that, but now we know the Alliance losses there total more than those killed by the Scourge!). Giving the Horde the benefit of the doubt (we were betrayed from within!), he confronts Putress and sees that the undead capital city, one of the major cities in the Horde, is used to torture and experiment on humans. Then again, in icecrown, Horde cowardly attacked the Alliance from behind while the Alliance was fighting the Scourge.

Why does the Horde deserve the benefit of the doubt again? What reason does Varian have to trust them or want to work with them? It's all well and good to rationalize the Horde's behavior form the all-knowing point of view we players have. But from what Varian knows, the Horde is at least as much of a threat as Arthas. I mean, what is the point of teaming up with the Horde to fight Arthas when he just knows the Horde will stab the Alliance in the back at the first opportunity?

The Horde are in the wrong, and thus it is up to the Horde to take great steps to set out an olive branch to Varian and the Alliance to patch things up. If the best they can do is for Thrall to send his girlfriend to talk to Varian and beg for him to join the Horde, then they can't be that sorry about what has happened, and are unwilling to show that they will punish those responsible for the crimes committed (imprisoning those responsible for ordering the attack on the Alliance, imrpisoning/executing publically those allied with Putress since he and the dread lord didn't act alone, etc.). The Horde need to give the Alliance reason to trust them, and they haven't taken strong action to make that happen.

Care to inform us exactly how the Horde betrayed the Alliance? A rebel group of undead that attacks the Alliance and Horde =/= Horde betraying the Alliance. Varian might not see it that way; but that is because he is bias.

Where does the Horde attack the Alliance from behind in Icecrown? (I haven't done all of the quests there) If I have missed it (maybe); I can speculate that those events happened after the events at the Wrathgate. Meaning the Horde and Alliance are at war already and any attack isn't a betrayal.....its simple part of war.

The Horde isn't in the wrong. That is your view. State it as such. Do not act as if it is fact. I think it is clear that most if not all of Putress' allies died when Horde/Alliance invaded UC to retake it.

Really, your post rang of Alliance bias and trying to validate Varian. He doesn't need you to do that. He has reasons for the things he does. Some of them are stupid some aren't. Refusing to work with the Kirin Tor and the Horde is one of the stupid ones, he is blinded by hate and ignorance to what is really going on. If he is truly a good ruler he will help when it is needed even if he doesn't want to. Maybe both side will be able to remedy things. (Doubtful! FvF is a huge part of WoW.....Blizzard's cashcow atm.)

Assassyn · 04/14/09, 9:09 PM

Originally Posted by Katria

The Horde betrayed the Alliance at the Wrathgate (not only that, but now we know the Alliance losses there total more than those killed by the Scourge!). Giving the Horde the benefit of the doubt (we were betrayed from within!), he confronts Putress and sees that the undead capital city, one of the major cities in the Horde, is used to torture and experiment on humans. Then again, in icecrown, Horde cowardly attacked the Alliance from behind while the Alliance was fighting the Scourge.

I'll admit that Garrosh is making Thrall out to be a chump, but I'm still not buying the whole "Horde betrayed Alliance at Wrathgate". The horde aren't responsible for putress and the new plague anymore than the alliance are responsible for kel'thuzad and the old plague. Putruss/Kel'thuzad didn't like the direction their "leaders" were going and with a little crazy whispering from Varimathras/Lich King they set out to do things their own way by secretly attacking everyone with new/old plague. Wasn't Kel'thuzad kicked out of the Kirin tor for practicing necromancy? Seems like they would have kept an eye on him...must be some pretty bad leaders in the Kirin Tor.

I'm also not convinced that Sylvanas was just ignoring all these crazy experiments right under her nose. To me, the UnderCITY is supposed to represent much more than just the small little area we run around in. Its supposed to be a city. I don't think its unreasonable to think that someone could get away with something if they were trying to hide it, all the while being in a basement on the other side of town. The abominations can be explained away since all the guards in Undercity are....abominations. Yes, there are some humans locked up and being experimented on. What no one ever mentions is there is also a quest where the apothecaries kill a female tauren that came to them seeking aid. On that note, why doesn't anyone seem to notice that most of the horde forces at the wrathgate are wiped out by Putress as well? Does Varian think it was a planned attack against the alliance with just an unfortunate amount of friendly fire casualties? (which seemingly would have been about equal to the alliance forces)

Also, "They have lost the Undercity? Then the time to strike is now. We will deal with Putress ourselves and retake the Ruins of Lordaeron for the Alliance!" doesn't really seem to be giving the Horde the benefit of the doubt as much as Alliance cowardly attacking the Undercity from the sewers while the Horde fought against Varimathras and the rogue apothecaries.

Wickedgirl · 04/14/09, 9:50 PM

Thrall would undermine his position as Warchief by restraining, and thus humiliating one of his own in front of the opposite faction and especially in front of leaders of those factions (Rhonin, Jaina and the King) - some things you need to let play out and take the consequences and deal with them. Horde tribes function as equals, even if there is a Warchief, he needs to show respect to proven fighters and their clans.

What is disturbing about Varian's words is that they are not addressed solely to the Horde, but to Rhonin, Jaina and Brann too - in fact, they are addressed to all of us. What they did here is show how Varian removes himself out of the responsibility of fighting Yogg Saron, out of his selfish pride and, in truth, selfish hate. They are also showing his blindness to the bigger threats that mortal races will face soon.

All this is, of course, a smart device to 1. show the need for "heroes" and 2. imply we are those heroes, that will help keep mortal races alive, even if we waste that life in fighting each other - least of all because that is exactly what we have always done throughout history - both in game and in reality.