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08/09/08, 11:54 PM
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#16
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Don Flamenco
Undead Mage
Twisting Nether (EU)
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Originally Posted by Zaniel
One thing to remember is that Blizzard lore and timelines are related to LEVEL. So the Naxx bosses all being alive in the DK starting area makes sense, as that's level 55. It isn't until T2-3 at 60 that Naxx gets destroyed.
Also, Naxx does get beaten, since they've already talked about how Kel'Thuzad gets reborn from his phylactery. So it's not that some of Naxx happened while some didn't. Everyone in there got killed (or re-killed). It's just a matter of when.
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While LVL = timeline is a decent general rule it seems to be broken all the time by Blizzard.
Like the Dranei and BE arriving later but you still lvl up with them in the past (low lvls).
And for DK's if it truly was lvl 55, then Naxx shouldnt even have been in Plaguelands yet, so its some weird mix of past and present, as others already mentioned.
Blizz seems to jump between past and present during quests and zones, even if the LVL doesnt fit with it.
Generally in-game events arent really canon lore before its mentioned in non-game references (like WoW books) I guess, or directly in a quest text explaining past events (not those explaining current events or asking you to do something, as those might easily be changed to an NPC doing it later on, which surely makes it a possibility that someone else killed Kelthuzad).
Like how the WoW comic currently is screwing up with major parts of Onyxia and Stormwind gamelore.
I dont think we have anything to indicate Arthas cant move around just because he is The Lich King, if he coulndt, the whole War3 story would be pointless, why bother attracting a fresh new body which can remove the lich king from his prison, if you wont use that new body for something useful...
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I suppose Lovecraftian Mythology, [...] using the rest of the Mythos that no one's ever really heard as sources of names seems incredibly unoriginal.
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Thats exactly what you could expect from Blizz. All their games are obviously heavy on pop-culture references. They dont take those names because they are unoriginal, but because they want to have that specific link to Lovecraft.
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08/09/08, 11:59 PM
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#17
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The beatings will stop once morale improves
Nurru
Undead Priest
No WoW Account
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Originally Posted by s[orc]ery
The thing you have to note when talking about the Death knight quest chain is that it covers several different phases in time. I believe that the first phase (uncorrupted New Avalon) was pre-WoW and pre-Naxx 1.0, but the decimation of the Scarlet Crusade and the forming of the Scarlet Onslaught/Argent Crusade was nearing the end of TBC. Also, the fact that Inigo Montoy is missing during the LHC event means it clearly occurs after WoW 1.0.
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Darion Mograine has Ashbringer and leads the Knights of the Ebon Hand. This could not have happened without Alexandros Mograine in Naxxramas being defeated and losing the sword. That should place the entire timeline of the DK area to after Naxxramas as Kazanir mentioned.
Either that or I'm mixing up Mograines again.
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08/10/08, 12:21 AM
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#18
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King Hippo
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The Archeus quests appear not only right after vanilla WoW occurs, but it apparently takes place after TBC is winding down if not ended entirely. iirc, one quest talks about the Horde and Alliance bringing its heroes back from Outland.
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08/10/08, 1:27 AM
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#19
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Mr. Sandman
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Nurru is right.
Alexandros Mograine - Commander of the Naxxramas armies, the former Ashbringer. Betrayed by his son Renault after killing an army of the Scourge at Stratholme. Then raised as a death knight by Kel'thuzad. Returns to slay his son Renault and heal Fairbanks after the Ashbringer is recovered from him in Naxxramas.
Renault Mograine - Betrayed his father and slew him with the Ashbringer during the battle at Stratholme. Promoted to command the Scarlet Crusade in Tirisfal by Balnazzar as reward for his actions. Slain by the ghost of Alexandros after Alexandros is defated in Naxx 1.0.
Darion Mograine - Revealed to have been in Outland by Fairbanks in the SM cutscene. Somehow returns to Azeroth and claims to have "given everything to free [his] father" in a battle near Light's Hope Chapel. (See his gossip text before the final DK battle at LHC.) Apparently fell in this battle and was raised to command the Ebon Hold death knights by the Lich King. This story is (sort of) borne out by his cutscene with his father's ghost at LHC before Arthas arrives.
I expect we'll see two parts to the world event that will open the expansion:
1) The razing of Orgrimmar and Darnassus by the armies of the Lich King, prompting the call to arms and the sending of the legions of the Horde and Alliance to Northrend.
2) The aforementioned battle involving Darion and Alexandros Mograine near Light's Hope, somehow explaining all the loose plot elements that don't fit together between the Naxx story, the SM cutscene, and the DK quest storyline.
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'War' is too small a word for what I'm fighting. Like a candle in front of the whole burning Sun. Now, I am not going to die today. I have other projects, and other options.
You can come with me. I can protect you.
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08/10/08, 1:46 AM
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#20
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Piston Honda
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Here's what I find confusing. In WoW Classic, Alexandros Mograine is one of the Four Horsemen and has the Ashbringer. In all your preparations to go into Naxxramas, you can overhear Eligor Dawnbringer saying this at LHC.
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"The Ashbringer is dead and there will never be another like him. The lesser Mograine is a far cry from the man his father was. You know this, Commander! It was, after all, your own leadership that was responsible for the death of the Scarlet Highlord Mograine. It was your leadership that manipulated a grieving child to try to recover the sword. A child that has grown into a man with nothing but vengeance and hatred in his heart! And for what? You are no closer to the sword now than you were five years ago. Yet you think that recovering Ashbringer will somehow turn the tide of battle? Let me let you in on a little secret, Commander. The power of the Ashbringer came from the man who would wield it... I was there, Commander. I watched him burn legions of undead in righteous fire before he would even unsheathe the blade. Alas, your grasp on history is... lacking."
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Taken in the past context, a lot of this monologue is confusing. We can assume that "the lesser Mograine" is Renault, because he is not killed until after the assault on Naxxramas and the Corrupted Ashbringer's recovery. "The grieving child" is a bit of a cipher though -- is it supposed to be Taelan Fordring? Was there meant to be a storyline that Taelan was to be the Crusade's tool to reacquire the Ashbringer? Yet by the time you get to LHC, Taelan must already be dead -- because "Lord Fordring and his knights" are meant to be a threat against the Scarlets.
Given what we now know about Darion Mograine, Eligor's speech takes on some different qualities. Both "the lesser Mograine" and "the grieving child" become Darion Mograine; the Scarlet Crusade plays a part in Darion's sortie into Naxxramas under the guise of rescuing Darion's father (but angling really for the Ashbringer); Darion's dialogue before the "Light of Dawn" quest notes the irony that LHC would be the site of the battle, since that was where Alexandros was apparently redeemed and where Darion himself fell from grace. Somehow, Darion keeps the Ashbringer and becomes a Death Knight in the process, "a man with nothing but vengeance and hatred in his heart." "You are no closer to the sword now than you were five years ago" implies that the sword did change state somehow, but does nothing to explain how.
Eligor's last comment here does explain something: "The power of the Ashbringer came from the who would wield it..." Taken out of the hands of Alexandros Mograine, the Ashbringer's power was corrupted and useless -- which is why Renault couldn't take it originally, and why Darion could do little more than wield it, much less redeem it. And yet merely in the hands of Tirion, the sword was redeemed, it's power restored, and Frostmourne's opposite number unleashed.
So here's the squirrelly thing: the information that we see before we originally entered Naxxramas fits better with the story we know now (the DK quest series) than the information we discover AFTER we entered Naxxramas (the Corrupted Ashbringer event and it's false lead-in to BC). It's almost as thought the introduction of Darion "I'm A Deathknight" Mograine was supposed to happen post-Patch 1.11, but instead they hamfisted some tie-in to the Burning Crusade instead... which makes even LESS sense, since there's no way for this hitherto-unknown second son to even GET to Outland if the Dark Portal hasn't re-opened yet.
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08/10/08, 1:47 AM
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#21
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Von Kaiser
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1) The razing of Orgrimmar and Darnassus
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So, the Lich King attacks the center of the horde, but the unloved stepchild of the Alliance? That seems fair >>
As for the timeline for the Deathknight intro, the jumps in "time" along the story line are hours/days - not months/years. It seems to me that the whole event takes place "after" BC.
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Eek, Shaman
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08/10/08, 8:57 AM
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#22
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Don Flamenco
Undead Mage
Twisting Nether (EU)
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Originally Posted by Kemortia
So, the Lich King attacks the center of the horde, but the unloved stepchild of the Alliance? That seems fair >>
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He obviously knows the alliance is mostly a bunch of useless treehuggers and silly humans.
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08/10/08, 12:36 PM
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#23
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Don Flamenco
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So, the Lich King attacks the center of the horde, but the unloved stepchild of the Alliance? That seems fair
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IMO, the razing of Darnassus is more symbolic than the razing of Stormwind City. Also, it will prove as a catalyst for the increased High Elven presense in Northrend.
The thing that interests me most is what prompts the Lich King to attack Org and Darn and if it ties into the Horde/Alliance actions in Outland or more importantly in Sunwell Plateau.
Also, Storm Peaks will be a very important area for the Titans storyline. I explored Ulduar on a sandbox and the surrounding area and it seems like the Titan storyline will jump heaps and bounds here, including what seems like some Titan artifacts.
There is also the question of the Dragon Aspects. We have already discussed in the other thread about Noz and how he could actually be the leader of the Infinite Dragonflight for whatever reasons. Also, I beleive there is some area called Nefarian's Cave (or something like that) which contains one human in there right now, which was interesting to me. Blizzard maybe going for big revival of the Black Dragonflight storyline.
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08/10/08, 1:09 PM
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#24
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Glass Joe
Night Elf Rogue
Emerald Dream (EU)
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Originally Posted by Kumar
There is also the question of the Dragon Aspects. We have already discussed in the other thread about Noz and how he could actually be the leader of the Infinite Dragonflight for whatever reasons. Also, I beleive there is some area called Nefarian's Cave (or something like that) which contains one human in there right now, which was interesting to me. Blizzard maybe going for big revival of the Black Dragonflight storyline.
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I think alot of it is explained >here<.
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08/10/08, 1:16 PM
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#25
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King Hippo
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Yea, sadly, the black dragonflight chain is utterly uninteresting. The bronze dragonflight chain seems incomplete, really.
Oh, wait, it reveals that there are magma dragons. Which we'll probably never hear of again, however.
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08/10/08, 2:11 PM
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#26
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Don Flamenco
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Originally Posted by Atnair
I think alot of it is explained >here<.
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Yes it is. But I beleive the Dragonflights will again come into play when you venture into Icecrown (which is not implemented yet) and still the question on what that Nefarian area is remains.
Yea, sadly, the black dragonflight chain is utterly uninteresting. The bronze dragonflight chain seems incomplete, really.
Oh, wait, it reveals that there are magma dragons. Which we'll probably never hear of again, however.
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Well, that is based on the current unfinished and limited build that some people are playing.
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08/10/08, 2:46 PM
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#27
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King Hippo
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Originally Posted by Kumar
Yes it is. But I beleive the Dragonflights will again come into play when you venture into Icecrown (which is not implemented yet) and still the question on what that Nefarian area is remains.
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The Maw of Neltharian is where most of the Black Dragonflights' chain takes place. The Cult of the Damned has infiltrated it in order to raise dead dragons. I guess I'm wrong, though - magma wyrms are just the fiery version of the frost wyrms that we see every once in a while. Nightbane, etc. But there's nothing in that place left to be developed. It looks super cool though, to be sure.
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08/10/08, 3:25 PM
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#28
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Honorary Toastr
Night Elf Priest
Dragonblight
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Originally Posted by Kemortia
So, the Lich King attacks the center of the horde, but the unloved stepchild of the Alliance? That seems fair >>
As for the timeline for the Deathknight intro, the jumps in "time" along the story line are hours/days - not months/years. It seems to me that the whole event takes place "after" BC.
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Meh. Stormwind was razed and rebuilt in 4 years. I would think lore-wise Darnassus would seem like a much larger threat than either Ironforge or Stormwind. The Night-Elves primarily fought in the War of the Ancients and War of the Shifting Sand. It was Night-Elves that destroyed Archimonde... Night-Elves who stopped Queen Azshara... If I was the Lich King, I'd be worried about the race that's already destroyed some pretty powerful enemies rather than the Humans who have already lost Lordaeron and had Stormwind razed already.
-- Also, I think Blizzard probably needs a reason for Night-Elves and Orcs to go to Northrend. Humans and Forsaken/Blood-Elf want the Lich King dead. Dwarves and Tauren have the Iron Dwarves and Taunaka to meet.
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08/10/08, 4:00 PM
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#29
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Piston Honda
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Darnassus is also a lot closer to Northrend than Stormwind or Ironforge.
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08/10/08, 4:28 PM
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#30
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Don Flamenco
Blood Elf Paladin
Icecrown
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Originally Posted by ayb
Darnassus is also a lot closer to Northrend than Stormwind or Ironforge.
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But this logic falls apart with Silvermoon City being far closer to Northrend than Orgrimmar. Unless this is supposed to happen simultaneously with the events of the SWP patch, so Arthas is scared to tussle with Kil'jaeden. Also, I thought Undercity was much further north than Orgrimmar too, but I may be misremembering.
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