Yes, perhaps the Horde indeed doesn't deserve the benefit of the doubt from what Varian knows, but only from Varian's POV.

For us players in the know, some of us do think the Horde deserve a break, and feel that Varian isn't acting very diplomatically.

That was the quote you responded to. Darksaber was only reacting to what he knew and what he saw, just as how Varian is acting from what he knows and what he saw. Yes, we as players get to see more than what we should through the 4th wall, but that doesn't take away from how we feel about the situation.

There's been at least a dozen back-and-forth pages of garbage regarding the faction leaders so far. It's not really achieving anything. People have claimed to source quotes that Thrall is going to die, when it's a ridiculous and distant speculation at best. There's no reason for Thrall to die. If anyone is going to die, Garrosh has already positioned himself nicely to take a fall.

All this garbage about Varian being "an arrogant, moody jerk" is equally ridiculous. Even if his reaction to the betrayal at the Wrathgate may have been a biased misinterpretation, what would any military leader do in his position? In a world of war, leaders are identified and supported/respected on their strengths. Half of the Alliance would have been seeking vengeance and bloodshed as a result of the Wrathgate incident. It's not like Varian stormed the gates of Orgrimmar in an attempt to kill Thrall. He assaulted the Undercity in a mission for revenge. He killed Putress, and he sees Thrall standing in the next room. What is he supposed to think?

The Ulduar trailer is another misconception. Varian didn't attend the meeting with any intention to fight. He was provoked, and as any leader, he needs to set an example. He'd quickly become the undermined laughing stock of the Alliance if he just stood there and took it. Garrosh makes a threat, Varian responds to it accordingly.

As an amusing contrast, observe how Garrosh looks down on Thrall for his diplomatic approach. There'd be a lot of angry friends/family of the deceased Alliance if Varian took a similar stance.

The biggest reason Garrosh is being set up for a fall, is this.

Varian is angry at the Horde because certain members of the Horde were responsible for the mass-murder of many of the Alliance's elite forces.
Garrosh is angry at the Alliance because..... wait? It's not like the Alliance were responsible for the heavy losses the Kor'kron suffered that day.

Now who's the hothead?

Whilst we're on the topic of wild speculation, how hilarious would it be if the "mystery" 3.2 raid was actually Icecrown. We fight through Icecrown Citadel in 3.2, only to arrive at Arthas' throne room and discover that someone beat us to the punch, and Ner'Zhul has manifested in another villain (gasp, Mal'Ganis!) and we fight the Lich King again in 3.3. It'd line up nicely with the whole "IcecrownCitael" dungeons files that popped up on the PTR a few weeks ago.

This is plain wrong, stop saying that. The RAP is under command of Varimathras who is an agent of the Burning Legion. It is not the Horde who is using the plague at the Wrathgate, and the huge amount of Demons you fight in the Undercity should give anyone a hint what this really is about.

As for the whol talk about "Sylvanas should know what is happening around her" - isn't there a Scarlet Crusade member right inside Stormwind Cathedral? Seeing as the Scarlets are agents of the Burning Legion aswell, this situation is somewhat similar.

as I never played the event on alliance side, what type of creatures are Allies fighting ?

The same demons that horde troups are killing or only RAS members ?

I would think it will play out nicely if later on in the story Varian discovers that he had a misconception about the horde all along. If Garrosh will realize the same is another question, but i'd not rule that out.

Everything points out into a direction where he will need to decide what is more important to him, his hate - or his people.

Whereas one could define the orc's struggle around a "hulk/klingon" theme, embracing the bloodlust/warmongering or showing reason for a longer term.

The story seems to unfold quite nicely and i am especially curious how Yogg Saron and Lich King are tied together.

It's a pretty decent mix of Generic Undercity type troops and various random demons. The Abomination zergs are especially annoying, if only because they all have that deathgrip like attack with their meat-hook chains. Lots of ping-pong action

Varian & Garrosh were created and shaped the way they are specifically so that the Horde & Alliance would be at very fierce odds with one another.

This thread is the perfect example of people with heightened feelings and emotions towards both factions and their leaders.

So yes, it's far more likely that Thrall would die(Or somehow be taken out of the picture) then Garrosh would die, because Metzen WANTS another open war between the two factions.

I will come back to this thread, quote myself, and eat my own words if anything happens to Garrosh/Varian, but I seriously doubt anything will happen to them, what I expect to happen is that it's going to get worse and worse, and we'll actually have open war between the factions, at the end, maybe they'll die, but as of right now, or in the short-term I expect them to play out the rolls they were designed for.

And you guys seriously need to stop putting the "Who's right, and who's wrong" spin on the conversation, because we have access to information that the actual characters do not, there's absolutely no way of saying who's right and who's wrong, because from their perceptions, and the people that follow them in their little world of warcraft, they're in the right.

To be clear, by no means did I suggest that the Horde sanctioned it. But the fact remains, that Putress and Varimathras were both members of the Horde a the time of the attack. That's all I'm saying. And that's all the Alliance saw.

Then what would you call the attack on the Horde troops at the Wrathgate? Their Allies (members of the Forsaken) betrayed them.

Yes I'm aware that the RAS is an external entity, but from the perspective of every victim at the Wrathgate, the last words your dying men heard before they died was, "This is the hour of the Forsaken."

If people are out for bloodshed, where are they gonna point their fingers?

As a horde player I can't objectively defend the horde or it's leaders.

For starters, in vanilla WoW there are numerous quests from at least the orcs, trolls and forsaken that have you killing innocent alliance or making unprovoked attacks on them. There's the rogue Grimtotem clan of tauren that are never really dealt with despite their attacks on the alliance and having a malevolent alliance with some faction in the undercity. And finally there's a vast number of forsaken quests that have you helping with the creation of some vast, apocalytic plague.

In TBC they're much more sympathetic, but in WotLK everything has clearly gone to shit again with the horde reverting to its aggressive ways as exemplified by the leaders of the various orc bases that take after Garrosh. It only gets worse in Icecrown with attacks on the alliance whilst they battle the scourge (and at this point whilst there is more tension I don't see it as open war yet).

You can argue that Wrathgate wasn't a betrayal by the horde, but it is something the horde has to take responsibility for. It was forsaken who had been researching in the Undercity that attacked. They were led by Sylvanus's deputy. Even if the horde leaders had no idea what was going on, they're responsible for the actions of their members and the onus is on them to actively make amends. Instead you have Garrosh stoking the fire.

I think this reflects most badly on Thrall though. He's good intentioned, but doesn't seem willing to do what it takes to put the horde in line. He must be aware of what's going on since Saurfang is in Conquest Hold, and no one seems to be reining in the horde in Northrend.

One think I find interesting is that arguably it's the horde players that are most culpable for the Wrathgate attack. They're the ones that have been helping the Royal Apothecary Society, from level 1-80, and have seen exactly what they're doing. Sure you have no ability to stop them, but you chose to do the quests to help them (because how many people chose not to do the quests?).

** double post **

To be honest I won't be surprised that the loss of Bolevar has something to do with it. The loss of his best friend could influence his view about the Horde.