World of Warcraft - Lore & Storyline discussion [SPOILERS] - Page 206

Emeraude · 04/20/09, 5:44 PM

Originally Posted by Pandapwns

I get the feeling that the Orc in the blizzcast reading is Nerzhul, The man is Arthas and the boy is Mathias from icecrown.
Am I horribly mistaken or what?

That's completely correct.

Seelen · 04/20/09, 6:00 PM

Originally Posted by Starfire

Wait, as been stated before. What's being retconned? We know Spacegoats (and orcs) age slower than humans. (And presumably Night-Elves would too, considering they were immortals.)

It's been repeatedly stated the Nathrezim don't die, they more or less just get banished back to the twisting nether. This is not a retcon at all.

And as far as your slavery card... All great societies in history was built on the backs of slaves or people of near slave-status. Some of these societies would be considered amongst the "most civilized". Samurai's had slaves. Romans had slaves. Americans had slaves. Maybe you should haven't heard of it too much.

I'm well aware of slavery. I'm sure the seedier folk of Azeroth have their own, namely the cartels and the Forsaken. What bugs me about the Orcs is that their own leader was a slave for the first half of his life, their entire race were slaves to demons for upwards of thirty or more years, yet no one in the comic even so much as frowns upon or gets a sour stomach on the topic. That's all I'm trying to point out, nothing more.

I was unaware that the Nathrezim were simply banished there, but I was under the impression that they died in physical body like any other and their soul was sucked back in, in a manner that left them as helpless and unable to return as the other dead. I was not aware of this fact of simple banishment, sorry.

As it usually happens with me, though, I forget the big things until after the fact. I remembered this morning their ?possible? retcon of the Old Gods story, and their imprisonment. At least this is if I'm reading the conversation between Brann and the Tribunal correctly. I'm not going to judge this right away until I'm sure, so please help me out. As it originally were, in numerous quest chains and dialogue, the Old Gods ruled Azeroth when it was a primordial ball of angry elementals, the Titans came, defeated them, chained them, and ordered the planet. One stop, one time, then they left.

As I'm reading this dialogue with the Tribunal, one of two things is possible:

1) The Old Gods weren't there in the first place, and popped up after the Titans' first visit. They eventually came back and found the Old Gods, then banished them on the return trip, and ordered everything.

2) The Old Gods were there first, but the Titans' made a return trip still, and found their 'infection' of the world, the curse of the flesh and what have you.

One's a larger change than the other, no doubt, but I'm still not certain which one they've made, or if there's another possibility. Thoughts anyone?

Blayze · 04/20/09, 7:51 PM

WowWiki states "Long ago, Azeroth was a primordial world filled with the hostile elemental servants of the Old Gods. When the Titans visited the world in their quest to bring order to the universe, they fought first against the Old Gods' lieutenants who were the elemental gods of Azeroth and the source of the elementals themselves, Ragnaros the Firelord, Therazane the Stonemother, Al'Akir the Windlord, and Neptulon the Tidehunter, then against the Old Gods themselves. Soon, the Titans defeated the Old Gods, then chained the raging beings beneath the earth where supposedly they remain to this day. The Titans then began the long process of forming the lands and seas of Azeroth."

(From Old Gods - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft)

It looks like they were there to start with. As far as their banishment is concerned, I noticed on the WoW website's Ulduar page the phrase (Potential paraphrasing from memory) "threat the Titans could not, would not destroy". The more I think about it, the more that "would not" might prove interesting.

Ukerric · 04/21/09, 7:07 AM

Originally Posted by Blayze

(From Old Gods - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft)

If we believe the Halls of Stone archive system, that was retconned. The Old Gods either weren't there when the Titans came first (and maybe got attracted by the Titan workings), or went unnoticed. On their second visit, they found their former caretakers mostly corrupted (the curse of flesh), had to design new ones less susceptible to the full extent of that curse, and made sure the Old Gods were contained:

From the dialog: "So they zapped the Earthen with this Curse of Flesh. And then what?
Creators arrived to extirpate symbiotic infection. Assessment revealed that Old God infestation had grown malignant."

Another point is that the dialog doesn't really say that killing the Old Gods would destroy Azeroth. It implies that, if the Titans had done it, that would have destroyed Azeroth: "If they killed the Old Gods Azeroth would have been destroyed." (emphasis mine). People assuming that Titans are mistaken (or, worse, that we are sowing the seeds of our own destruction) overlook this point, and that's where Algalon's message comes in:

The Titans couldn't kill the Old Gods without destroying Azeroth. But we can.

Aildrik · 04/21/09, 10:22 AM

Abedneum: Accessing. In the early stages of its development cycle Azeroth suffered infection by parasitic, necrophotic symbiotes.
Kaddrak: Accessing. Creators arrived to extirpate symbiotic infection. Assessment revealed that Old God infestation had grown malignant. Excising parasites would result in loss of host.
Brann: If they killed the Old Gods Azeroth would have been destroyed.
Kaddrak: Correct. Creators neutralized parasitic threat and contained it within the host. Forge of Wills and other systems were instituted to create new Earthen. Safeguards were implemented and protectors were appointed.

I'm open to the theory that for whatever reason, Titans can't kill the Old Gods, but players can. However, based on the use of the term 'symbiote' and the lines from Kaddrak, it pretty much states flat out that the Old Gods had somehow become intertwined with Azeroth in a way that meant their survival depended on one another (which is how a symbiotic relationship works).

IMHO, I think that Blizzard is just leaving hooks from which to hang a future catastrophe/plot/expansion.

Douglas · 04/21/09, 10:38 AM

Originally Posted by Aildrik

I'm open to the theory that for whatever reason, Titans can't kill the Old Gods, but players can. However, based on the use of the term 'symbiote' and the lines from Kaddrak, it pretty much states flat out that the Old Gods had somehow become intertwined with Azeroth in a way that meant their survival depended on one another (which is how a symbiotic relationship works).

Sure. So if there's a true symbiotic relationship, can't remove the symbiote unless you at the same time replace it with a new mechanism that can fulfill the same function. So if we had a new... thing... that could fulfill that function while causing less damage to the host, a procedure that gradually replaced the old infection with the new infection might be viable.

We're afflicted with the Curse of Flesh (modulo Orcs and Draenei). Maybe we have enough old-god taint in us that we ourselves can fulfill that symbiotic relationship. We kill the old gods and take their place in Azeroth's "metabolism". We are the cow pox to the Old God's smallpox.

(Which, if we managed to pull it off, would create the interesting situation that killing us off might destroy Azeroth. Which could get the Titans to side with us against... Arthas, the dragon aspects, the watchers, the legion, anything. Saving us becomes synonymous in the Titans' minds with saving Azeroth itself. I know, I know, it's a stretch...)

zirky · 04/21/09, 11:03 AM

It seems a lot of the Titan lore that has surfaced in Wrath is simply to lay the ground work for future expansions. Assuming the next expansion is the Maelstrom as expected, there is little other existing lore to continue with. Laying the ground work of an inevitable Titan and/or Old God conflict now gives them ammunition for more future expansions.

Also, its vastly preferable to more Trolls fucking with their gods. I'll take retcons over Trolls any day.

Lunkhedd · 04/21/09, 11:16 AM

Originally Posted by Blayze

As far as their banishment is concerned, I noticed on the WoW website's Ulduar page the phrase (Potential paraphrasing from memory) "threat the Titans could not, would not destroy". The more I think about it, the more that "would not" might prove interesting.

That could just be covered by the Halls of Stone computer speech. It has occurred to me, though, that killing a death god might not necessarily be the best way to make it less powerful, which would also explain why the Titans didn't kill it.

Emeraude · 04/21/09, 12:36 PM

So I'm reading through this book, and they get to the part where Arthas and Jaina break up.

They're both all happy, and giddy, knocking boots, Jaina is involved with Arthas's family, his mother, father, everything is all wonderful, and they break up, and why?

← Click Here

For the love of. -_-

After that little drama, the book starts to pick up @ the Warcraft 3 part, Medivh appears in Dalaran and Jaina overhears.

zirky · 04/21/09, 12:57 PM

I don't know Emeraude, that might be the single most realistic thing that happens in all of Azeroth.

Finally, I can connect with Arthas as a person.

Though considering his character from the RTS, that's not a terribly surprising reaction.

Bloo Driver · 04/21/09, 1:01 PM

That's a little odd because several mentions of the book's plot (including one from the author herself, if I recall) actually said they split due to being under the constant scrutiny of everyone.

Emeraude · 04/21/09, 1:07 PM

Originally Posted by Bloo Driver

That's a little odd because several mentions of the book's plot (including one from the author herself, if I recall) actually said they split due to being under the constant scrutiny of everyone.

They didn't care about the scrutiny, in fact they found it most exciting.

Kael cared, he bitched at Arthas for not being public about it.

Faldrath · 04/21/09, 4:33 PM

Originally Posted by Emeraude

Going to go ahead and take King Llane out of the running as Me'dan's father, even if it would have been cool, he's way too young to be born while King Llane was still alive. Next issue they're supposed to reveal a few things about Garona's past as they work on the spell, so maybe we'll get some answers.

I think Me'dan just looks too draenei-like for his father to be a human - much more than Garona herself.

Then again, it might not be wise to go by the comic books' art... they draw Thrall as if he was the Incredible Hulk

Emeraude · 04/21/09, 4:41 PM

Originally Posted by Faldrath

I think Me'dan just looks too draenei-like for his father to be a human - much more than Garona herself.

Then again, it might not be wise to go by the comic books' art... they draw Thrall as if he was the Incredible Hulk

Yeah but the first war takes place after the Draenei extermination, when/where would Garona find the time to establish a relationship with a Draenei on Azeroth(where she primarily was for the first war) while gathering info for the Llane/Gul'dan when most of them were still in hiding in Draenor.

Remember she was pregnant when she killed Llane(very early and barely showing) so it had to have been right around that time period.

Nakari · 04/21/09, 6:49 PM

Originally Posted by Emeraude

Yeah but the first war takes place after the Draenei extermination, when/where would Garona find the time to establish a relationship with a Draenei on Azeroth(where she primarily was for the first war) while gathering info for the Llane/Gul'dan when most of them were still in hiding in Draenor.

Remember she was pregnant when she killed Llane(very early and barely showing) so it had to have been right around that time period.

That doesn't really leave us with many options for the father (at least if we assume he's a previously known character), and most of them are humans - Khadgar would surely be interesting