Still, is that what we should accept as the answer for Tyr? He is in fact Vezax?
I wouldn't take it for anything more than a red herring at this time. If we don't see Tyr in Uldum, then I'd go with Vezax = Tyr with a strong side of disappointment in Blizzard for once again failing to flesh out the lore better.
Darion didn't even exist before WotLK. Darion is a good example though of how they can make up a character and flesh out the story real well in-game and outside the game.
Well, I was referring to the fact that there was a really obscure (well, not obscure so much as hard to come by) event that hinted at Alexandros having another son beyond the one that betrayed him in Strath. He was never given a name, and it's really just speculation that the event in SM is referring to Darion, but it was clear that Alexandros had another son long before WotLK came out.
Seriously, Med'an can use shamanism, arcane magic and holy magic at an instinctual level and with little-to-no formal training. Throw in his...mixed bloodline and the fact that most people seem to be assuming that he's going to end up as the next Guardian and it's a perfect set-up for someone to chuck him the Heart of Magic instead.
I tend to think Med'an's Shamanism and holy talents make him a less suitable blue aspect than other possibilities Shamanism and Holy healing come from Eonar - correct me if i have musunderstood their origins - and there are already 2 capable aspects safeguarding those powers. It seems like arcane magic is what needs help at the moment I would think whomever filled that wrole would have to focus on arcane magic rather than show the stirings of a wider power base.
I tend to think Med'an's Shamanism and holy talents make him a less suitable blue aspect than other possibilities Shamanism and Holy healing come from Eonar - correct me if i have musunderstood their origins - and there are already 2 capable aspects safeguarding those powers. It seems like arcane magic is what needs help at the moment I would think whomever filled that wrole would have to focus on arcane magic rather than show the stirings of a wider power base.
Holy and nature are within her domain, but I don't believe any aspects in particular hold domain over holy, and Ysera is more in tune with Druidism than Shamanism. You are, however, correct in that Malygos holds (rather, held) domain over arcane magics (which may cover frost and fire, in the same way that mages specialize in them). Holy, Druidic, and Shamanistic magics all have a different source than arcane magics and Malygos has (had) no direct influence over them.
I always assumed Holy came from The Light or Elune (or apparently The Shadow).
Although, in retrospect, the Spells we know that are directly empowered by Elune tend to do Arcane damage (Starfall, Starshards). Even Elune's Grace had an Arcane animation.
I think however, some people in this discussion are confusing/confounding the difference between Nature-damage-game-mechanic and Nature-originated/powered. Or maybe a better example, even though Starshards does Arcane-damage-game-mechanic, it is most definitely Divine-originated/powered.
Originally Posted by arison
Everyone should start from the same place and rise based on their abilities, desires, and schedule. No one plays MMOs to *be* powerful, they play MMOs to *become* powerful. It's the journey, stupid. The rarer loot is, the more cherished it is when you get it, but only so long as there is a reasonable expectation to get it. The rarer loot is, the better it feels when you kill a boss or when $AWESOME_TRINKET drops.
On the "how and why does Cairne die?", I truly hope Varian doesn't attempt to Gengis Khan his way into Thunderbluff.
Another option stems from that Blizzcon illustration, with Cairne and Thrall digging children from rubble.
You get two major targets semi-isolated leading a small rescue effort. By chance (or good ole' SI7 information digging), your expedition corps drop on them unaware, Cairne gets killed, Thrall knocked down (first act of the alliance mage: cast sheep on Thrall, kill the rest!) and shipped to Stormwind first thing ("no, we're not going thru Theramore with HIM onboard").
Horde finds the traces of the fight, Thrall assumed MIA, Garrosh takes over.
Not to say that's how it happens, but that's how it might happen.
Another option stems from that Blizzcon illustration, with Cairne and Thrall digging children from rubble.
You get two major targets semi-isolated leading a small rescue effort. By chance (or good ole' SI7 information digging), your expedition corps drop on them unaware, Cairne gets killed, Thrall knocked down (first act of the alliance mage: cast sheep on Thrall, kill the rest!) and shipped to Stormwind first thing ("no, we're not going thru Theramore with HIM onboard").
Horde finds the traces of the fight, Thrall assumed MIA, Garrosh takes over.
Not to say that's how it happens, but that's how it might happen.
Great idea right there, much better than "Chieftain Cairne, Varian Wyrnn is here, says he has some sort of metallic, edged package for you". I still vote for the internal struggle within the Horde, though. I love to hate seeing characters I like being killed by those I hate (Garrosh here). Plus, if it's dark times for the Horde Blizzard wants, than that's the way to go. It doesn't brand Garrosh as a traitor, as HE's the one doing the branding.
And another thing: the discussion on how the hell any "reasonable" group of regular troops (or elite, for that matter) can take down either Thrall or Cairne (both shaman-warriors with high connections with their "deities") should not be taken as a "vs. whine". I seem to recall seeing blood on Thrall's arm in that piece of art (good quality pic is sure taking its time to get to Sons of the Storm) so maybe they're injured. But still, there should be some sort of trick to take down any of those two. Cairne was said to still be as strong as twenty men. Which means he'll probably take down the double, not counting on his Earth Motherly powers.
Someone above referred to Med'han as being less suitable for a "blue aspect". The job opening is for Aspect of Magic. It was the blue dragonflight - with Malygos at the head - that was awarded the domain of magic, they are not the same and dragons did not suddendly spring up imbued with their domains. They evolved and the aspects were "nominated" millenia after the first modern dragons (not protos or whatever was there before) breathed. Tyranastrasz (damn "s's" and "z's") was hundreds of thousands of years older than Alexstrasza. So Med'han doesn't even need to get along with the blue dragons - and probably won't, for the first times, if thy scaly ones don't recognize their fascist ways.
And now I've got this mental image of Med'an stepping up, grabbing hold of the flows of magic and giving them a little tug then sending a message to the remains of the blue dragonflight: "We can do this my way, or the hard way. Your call. Oh, an incidentally I can cut you off from the leylines and nodes at any time".
You think the high/blood elves had it bad when the Sunwell shut down? Just imagine what'd happen to the Blue Dragonflight....
Now that you mention it...I wonder if it's possible for anyone but the Titans to de-power the blue flight. Leylines seem to be beyond the direct control of the Magic Aspect, as Malygos had to go on a Redeco Rampage and use magi to actually redirect the magic flow.
Also, my view on blues-magic connection - and this is speculation, no real evidence supporting me - is that their use of magic creates no dependence. Perhaps it's like a vital fluid and there's simply no way for them to actually survive without it, anyway. And I mean instant death, not painful dependence, like the blood elves experience. You might recall the story about the blue dragon who created a cube that syphoned magic at its controller's comand. Well, as the dragon learned, he'd made a mistake and the cube syphoned all magic surrounding it, once activated. Period. And it sucked its creator dry of its power. But what the other dragons found, afterwards was not a powerless dragon, but a shrivelled husk. That's about the only fact that might support my theory, apart from the fact that dragons are much more powerfull, wise and "well-planned" beings. They've been created to, in the long term, embody their elements, and so their relation to their respective energy-tipes is probably more "natural". It's kind of hard to explain without being reminded that blood elves became so dependent on magic that it can almost be called symbiosis.
Someone above referred to Med'han as being less suitable for a "blue aspect". The job opening is for Aspect of Magic. It was the blue dragonflight - with Malygos at the head - that was awarded the domain of magic, they are not the same and dragons did not suddendly spring up imbued with their domains. They evolved and the aspects were "nominated" millenia after the first modern dragons (not protos or whatever was there before) breathed. Tyranastrasz (damn "s's" and "z's") was hundreds of thousands of years older than Alexstrasza. So Med'han doesn't even need to get along with the blue dragons - and probably won't, for the first times, if thy scaly ones don't recognize their fascist ways.
I think that may have been retconned since the story in Dragonblight makes it quite clear the Titans created the Aspects from the Proto Dragon Galakrond and then the rest of the dragons came into existence through the same means. I guess it's POSSIBLE that he was originally a Proto Dragon.
And another thing: the discussion on how the hell any "reasonable" group of regular troops (or elite, for that matter) can take down either Thrall or Cairne (both shaman-warriors with high connections with their "deities") should not be taken as a "vs. whine". I seem to recall seeing blood on Thrall's arm in that piece of art (good quality pic is sure taking its time to get to Sons of the Storm) so maybe they're injured. But still, there should be some sort of trick to take down any of those two. Cairne was said to still be as strong as twenty men. Which means he'll probably take down the double, not counting on his Earth Motherly powers.
I don't see why its so unfeasible that it isn't an elite strike or attack of opportunity with one or more of the major Alliance players. The named guys of SI:7 or even Varian. If they are in the right place at the right time, especially considering the parting words from the battle in Undercity, I see no reason why Varian wouldn't strike given the opportunity. It dirties up the Alliance, gives the Horde their "Dark Times™" and puts the "War back in Warcraft™."
Sure Thrall is a supremely powerful caster, but given enough opposing casters could negate his magical edge. In a toe to toe fight with someone like Varian, without his magic, he possibly would be at the disadvantage.
I think that may have been retconned since the story in Dragonblight makes it quite clear the Titans created the Aspects from the Proto Dragon Galakrond and then the rest of the dragons came into existence through the same means. I guess it's POSSIBLE that he was originally a Proto Dragon.
Wowwiki confirms what you say. Well, it seems then that dragons may have really been created with a purpose in mind, rather than being an evolution from a species - the protos. Makes me wish Blizzard had developed a Proto-Dragon (mature) model.
Chrono-question: can we assume Galakrond was a stell/rock/non-organic being? Titans didn't create new lifeforms after the curse of flesh, did they?
And now that I mention it, how the hell did the Tolvir remain stone?
Sure Thrall is a supremely powerful caster, but given enough opposing casters could negate his magical edge. In a toe to toe fight with someone like Varian, without his magic, he possibly would be at the disadvantage.
There are hundreds of scenarios that Blizzard could come up with that would make it reasonable for Thrall to be captured. He could be weakened from either something resulting from the cataclysm or something that will happen in Ice Crown. Hell, Varian could have arranged something with Garrosh to allow Thrall to be captured and Cairne to be killed. Garrosh would gain control of the horde allowing him to seek the total war he desires. Varian would be able to take out his 2 biggest threats in the horde.
We could come up with ideas like this all day, but honestly guessing at what is going to happen when we are missing big chunks of the story between when this happens and now seems like a crap shoot.
Wowwiki confirms what you say. Well, it seems then that dragons may have really been created with a purpose in mind, rather than being an evolution from a species - the protos. Makes me wish Blizzard had developed a Proto-Dragon (mature) model.
Chrono-question: can we assume Galakrond was a stell/rock/non-organic being? Titans didn't create new lifeforms after the curse of flesh, did they?
And now that I mention it, how the hell did the Tolvir remain stone?
Maybe they were created after the Titans learned how to prevent the Curse of Flesh.
We could come up with ideas like this all day, but honestly guessing at what is going to happen when we are missing big chunks of the story between when this happens and now seems like a crap shoot.
Granted. I'm just surprised at the vast numbers of people that can't even conceive a scenario where Thrall is captured.
Granted. I'm just surprised at the vast numbers of people that can't even conceive a scenario where Thrall is captured.
Yet, people accepted Space Goats.
Guess you forgot the forum post by Metzen when he explained that he understood he messed up due to the many many posts about draenei? I see them debating how he would be captured also more than them denying it can happen.
I think a lot of people are stuck on the "But he tore down Durnholde with a thought" thing. If Thrall goes up against Varian, let's say, he's not going to just be able to just fling a lightning bolt and kill him right there. He would have to ask the spirit of fire, and there's no guarantee that the spirit will say yes, especially given that Varian isn't inherently "evil". In addition to that, although gameplay mechanics don't always follow lore precisely, they do exist. Casts and channeled spells can be pummeled and magic users can still be silenced.
In all seriousness, Thrall is definitely an incredibly powerful individual, and his skill in physical (i.e. non-magic) combat rivals Varian. However, that doesn't mean that he's all powerful and unbeatable. Drek'Thar is arguably a more powerful (more experienced anyway) shaman than he is (though I don't know if he's "alive" in lore, given that he's killed in AV).
Last I checked, Thrall is still mortal, and like all (most?) mortals, they're susceptible to sickness (Wrathgate comes to mind). It doesn't seem farfetched to think Thrall was poisoned, allowing for an easy capture. When he snaps out of it, he might be ready to whoop on his captors, but at this point maybe that's where the goblins come in; Thrall doesn't have to fight since the goblins help him out.
There are hundreds of scenarios that Blizzard could come up with that would make it reasonable for Thrall to be captured. He could be weakened from either something resulting from the cataclysm or something that will happen in Ice Crown. Hell, Varian could have arranged something with Garrosh to allow Thrall to be captured and Cairne to be killed. Garrosh would gain control of the horde allowing him to seek the total war he desires. Varian would be able to take out his 2 biggest threats in the horde.
We could come up with ideas like this all day, but honestly guessing at what is going to happen when we are missing big chunks of the story between when this happens and now seems like a crap shoot.
It's extremely unlikely given Garrosh's personality that he would collude with the Alliance to depose Thrall. Consider the Ulduar trailer, Garrosh displays a very visceral disdain for the "cowards", going as far to attack Varian on sight. It's also backwards for Garrosh to obtain the Alliance's help in deposing Thrall when his blatant motivation for doing so is to attack the Alliance.
We may be missing big chunks of the story, but some things are effectively impossible.
What I lack in intelligence I make up for in verbosity.
I'm getting the impression people are overestimating the power of NPC heroes and faction leaders. On their own, they're pretty vulnerable. Medivh was killed in WCI by an Alliance party (though that included Khadgar), Alextrazsa was enslaved by the Orcs, Deathwing was killed during a WCIIE Alliance mission (and Alleria could probably solo pretty much any being in the game, judging purely on the evidence presented by that game), Varian spent a considerable time in captivity and so did Thrall in his early years. In fact, I rather remember rather vividly how he had a tendency of behaving in a rather less-than-intelligent manner when assisting him in his escape. All cases in the point that those heroes aren't exalted creatures that are beyond influence or circumstance.
All cases in the point that those heroes aren't exalted creatures that are beyond influence or circumstance.
No.
Alexstrasza was captured because of Deathwing's direct intervention (leading an orc to the one artifact that could force her to give her children to the orcs). As for the rest of the RTS stuff, that mostly never happened in the canon of the Warcraft universe, and the power levels for the units in WC2 in particular are intentionally whacky to provide for a fast-paced game.
As for Thrall and Varian, they were both captured as children and neither had the slightest degree of their current powers at the time of their capture. Thrall didn't really become the uber-Shaman until he escaped, and Varian didn't become a peerless warrior until his captors made him fight gladiatorial combats.
Alexstrasza was captured because of Deathwing's direct intervention (leading an orc to the one artifact that could force her to give her children to the orcs). As for the rest of the RTS stuff, that mostly never happened in the canon of the Warcraft universe, and the power levels for the units in WC2 in particular are intentionally whacky to provide for a fast-paced game.
As for Thrall and Varian, they were both captured as children and neither had the slightest degree of their current powers at the time of their capture. Thrall didn't really become the uber-Shaman until he escaped, and Varian didn't become a peerless warrior until his captors made him fight gladiatorial combats.
It was established during 'Arthas' that Varian was trained since a child to be a great warrior and he wasn't captured when he was a child either :P Varian was a adult when he was initially captured by the Defias and spent about 2 weeks as a gladiator after all that.
It should be noted, however, that Varian's capture also involved the indirect aid of another Black dragon, Onyxia. It's not like a random group of thugs got lucky. It's very rare, if unprecedented, for any plot-centric character in WarCraft to die or be captured without another plot-centric character being fairly heavily involved.
What I lack in intelligence I make up for in verbosity.
It should be noted, however, that Varian's capture also involved the indirect aid of another Black dragon, Onyxia. It's not like a random group of thugs got lucky. It's very rare, if unprecedented, for any plot-centric character in WarCraft to die or be captured without another plot-centric character being fairly heavily involved.
Aye, truth is the Defias played the FedEx part in Varian's kidnapping. Still, it's not unheard of - actually, hero stories are full of it - for heroes (or the no.2 villains) to fall to otherwise easy foes or traps in order to advance the story and create a confrontation. Spiderman, for example, has been unconscious and at the mercy of probably each and every one of his foes. True, these are revolting moments, as much as those in which the hero can only turn the tables when the villain kills someone dear to him or says something that really grinds the good guy's gears. Even in Warhammer "eats your dreams and hopes" 40k we have those cases.
So I guess that, if Blizzard decides to throw 30 SI:7 operatives on top of Thrall and Cairne, it'd just be a common plot element. Mainstream, yes, but, alas, not unheard of. I'd still vote for the treason accusation for Cairne, though. That would be truly unexpected and a crack in the Horde's unity.
A lot of you are accepting the "Varian throws the first stone" theory. That's something that just doesn't stick with the guy - and I dislike him to the geek-core. Blizzard has said, in a comic panel 1 or 2 years ago, that they wanted the Horde to be on the "less good" side. After all, an orc or undead has an apettite for bloodlust much bigger than a human or a dwarf. Varian is one prejudiced, battle-minded jerk. But he's been taught by some great kings, good diplomats such as Therenas and has cool-headed people surrounding him, like Jaina and his son. I'd be really surprised if he threw the first stone. Or, in the case of attacking Cairne himself with a "no prisoners" attitude, a whole mountain. He's as prejudiced as Garrosh. Not as bloodlusting.
Chrono-question: can we assume Galakrond was a stell/rock/non-organic being? Titans didn't create new lifeforms after the curse of flesh, did they?
Proto-Drakes are probably what dragons were like before the Titans arrived, maybe on the step to sentience and intelligence, maybe with an affinity for magic, so they bonded with the Titans and were used in the fights to contain the Old Gods, probably already empowered/made intelligent. Galakrond could've been a or the leader who fell during these fights.
09/01/09, 11:47 PM
