World of Warcraft - Lore & Storyline discussion [SPOILERS] - Page 209

zirky · 04/23/09, 1:36 PM

Originally Posted by Exemplar

If these things were vastly powerful and devious then by all rights we shouldn't know they're present until they've already achieved their goal. 2 out of 2 Old Gods going "Wow, finally out of jail, I'm so happy I'm gonna shout my presence to the world" is at least 1 too many. They should have let Brann in, let him talk to the Titan computers, and when he walked out he'd say in a monotone "Everythin's fine in thar. Ignore Ulduar."

Attacking people the instant they enter Ulduar is just foolish. They're not behaving like grand schemers, they're behaving like a newborn who simply reacts when you poke it. If they can wait thousands of years, why are they all knee-jerk reaction when people show up? Play dead, pretend nothing's changed, whatever. Heck, have General Vezax plaster over the door to your room and paint it like a wall - no one would know something is even missing.

I think in the case of Ulduar, there is a large difference between YS being able subvert and corrupt the inhabitants and him having complete control over everyone. Brann was attacked by the Titan defenses. If you look at the Thorim encounter, he's clearly been subverted by YS. He's interacting with his dead wife, but he's still defending the domain. He's not taking his orders straight YS. I don't believe it's the will of YS to attack whoever enters, but rather the nature of the defense systems left behind to guard Ulduar.

We're getting attacked because we're essentially invading Ulduar. Granted, our motivation is to stop a great and impending evil, but to the Watchers and everyone else who's been slowly corrupted by YS, we're a group of jackasses breaking into the mansion looking for spoils. From their (corrupted) point of view, there's nothing amiss other than some mortals invading. Hell, for Thorim, things are even better than normal has he has Siff again.

Edit: Regarding the Old Gods being interplanetary, didn't the HoS event make allusion to the Titan's having dealings with them before?

Kaejin · 04/23/09, 1:43 PM

I think it's likely that Skyriss was only referring to followers of the Old Gods and not the Qiraji specifically. So far as we know, the Qiraji are native to Azeroth.

... though I know the next logical response to that is "Then what was Skyriss doing in a Naaru prison?"

Originally Posted by Exemplar

Unfortunately it's reasoning is "It's a game, we have to give you something to fight."

Gameplay first, plot second.

Torrential · 04/23/09, 1:58 PM

Originally Posted by david0925

Then you will read that Mimiron explicitly say something along the lines of "Sorry friends, I was MC-ed by Yogg-Saron. Thanks for freeing me and I'll help you." You may have been too happy beating this encounter to pay attention to the dialogue, which is 100% understandable, but the dialogue is there to prove that he was influenced by Y-S.

You can also tell that he was either sarcastic and/or insane when he called you friend in that tone at the beginning of phase 1

Nevermind. Nobody got the joke.

Faeviactus · 04/23/09, 2:18 PM

As was stated this really could be the long con, with some course correction. YS knew that Loken's death was leading to Algalon calling the Titans. He NEEDED a raid on Ulduar to take down Algalon. So he needed to be become or appear to be an imminent and dangerous threat. If this is true though then he is not referring to Algalon as their imminent demise since he was hoping that would kill him in the first place. His Con may be continuing then. YS's plan though may be bigger than YS though. There is likely much more to know about the history of these Old Gods.

Emeraude · 04/23/09, 2:54 PM

Arthas: Rise of the Lich King talk below, only using the spoiler tag because the book was released 2 days ago

← Click Here

So I finished reading Arthas: Rise of the Lich King. It was pretty cool, I especially enjoyed the first 1/3 of the book as it was him growing up and the things he dealt with and how he felt, then it went on to the WC3 arc and things slowed down considerably. You always got to know where his mind was at, which was a plus, and even after he became a Death Knight he still had doubts in his mind and the things people would say to him would unnerve him.

Jaina and Arthas were deeply, deeply in love, more so then we previously thought, they made love the night before he slaughtered everyone in Stratholme, and she was there right before he destroyed Dalaran though he wasn't aware of this and hoped even as a Death Knight that she would not be there.

Kael'thas had this seething hatred for both Jaina and Arthas after he destroyed the Sunwell and Quel'thelas. When she tried to approach him she told him to keep her mouth shut, "Foolish girl. This is the monster you would take to your bed?" "Arthas is a butcher! He has slaughtered thousands of innocent people! There is so much blood on his hands that a whole ocean would never wash them clean. And you loved him? Chose him over me?" just to give you an idea.

They changed/gave detail to a few things I noticed. When Arthas made the decision to destroy Stratholme the light began to leave his side, his weapon would glow less and less, until he arrived at the Frostmourne Cavern it was completely gone, or so he thought. When Arthas freed Frostmourne, and the recoil killed/knocked Muradin back, Arthas started to heal Muradin, and the light was still by his side(Unknown if this is the reason Muradin actually lived). So yes, the light was with him until he took up Frostmourne.

The elf, Dar'Khan Drathir was apparently killed by Arthas after he took the Sunwell, but in the Novelization The Sunwell Trilogy obviously showed him as alive, was he Undead then, and then still Undead further afterwards? It's rather confusing, I was certain he was alive in the Sunwell Trilogy, though this might just be another error on their part.

According to the novel, Sylvanas didn't recover her body until after the seizures started and Ner'zhul called out to Arthas(Though obviously in the game she had it from mission 1).

When Arthas/Anub'arak made their way through the underground, there was no mention of the 2 Unholy allies fighting any forgotten ones, just other rebel Nerubians.

Arthas/Kael'thas fought at Icecrown with Kael'thas getting the last jab in by telling him that Jaina despised him before teleporting away, this un-nerved Arthas.

Chirality · 04/23/09, 3:40 PM

Thanks for the summary....though I'm kinda sad about a number of the retconn/spoilers you mentioned (Forgotten Ones, indeed).

One of the things that I continually find odd about the Old Gods vs. Titans is how weak they make the Burning Legion look, by comparison. The Legion is at times described as slowly "setting the universe aflame", yet the Old Gods don't even seem to care about them at all, other than as pawns (see: first Well of Eternity) to free themselves. They've set up a "Titans vs. Old Gods" war, in which the Titans are (perhaps) more powerful than the Old Gods. Yet, the Titans haven't destroyed the Legion? And the Old Gods don't even fear the Legion *at all*?

My question is basically: is the Burning Legion really that much of a side-note to the history of the universe?

Liebestod · 04/23/09, 3:47 PM

Thanks for the summary again, Emeraude. It's a bit of a shame that the Arthas/Jaina relationship has warranted almost no mention in WotLK, it's all about Jaina/Thrall now... which I do approve of, but nonetheless. Was there anything in the book that hinted at future storylines? Wasn't there something about Nazjatar rising? Is that really it?

He NEEDED a raid on Ulduar to take down Algalon. So he needed to be become or appear to be an imminent and dangerous threat. If this is true though then he is not referring to Algalon as their imminent demise since he was hoping that would kill him in the first place.

It's internally consistent, but exceedingly unlikely. Yogg-Saron could've just warned the Alliance and Horde... hell, even the Scourge... that Algalon was coming. "Free me and fight together!" Would make a lot more sense than saying "hey come decimate my army and take out this guy while you're at it."

They've set up a "Titans vs. Old Gods" war, in which the Titans are (perhaps) more powerful than the Old Gods. Yet, the Titans haven't destroyed the Legion? And the Old Gods don't even fear the Legion *at all*?

My question is basically: is the Burning Legion really that much of a side-note to the history of the universe?

I made a post about this some months back... I think Blizzard is setting up two major conflicts in the WoW universe which are oddly orthogonal: The Legion vs. the Naaru, and the Titans versus the Old Gods. Both represent classic "order vs. chaos" conflicts, but the Legion/Naaru have an addition tint of "good/evil light/darkness" to them... maybe if one wanted to reach you can try to draw the parallels between the Titans/Xel'Naga and Old Gods/Zerg (hmm... who gets to be the Protoss, then?) Suffice to say, I think the Old Gods will turn out to be the True Villians or the universe, not in a "pure evil" sense but in the old "destructive amoral parasites" sense. The only thing the Legion has going for it is Sargeras, particularly his status as a fallen Titan.

Emeraude · 04/23/09, 4:36 PM

Yeah I can give you that in it's entirety.

Arthas's dream:

← Click Here

Quel'Thalas--undamaged? No, no, there was the scar he and his army had left--but the city was being rebuilt....

Faster now the images poured into his mind, dizzying, chaotic, disordered. I twas impossible to tell the past from the future now. Another image, that of skeletal dragons raining destruction down on a city Arthas had never seen before--a hot, dry place crowded with orcs. And--yes, yes it was Stormwind itself that was now coming under attack from the undead dragons--

Nerubians--no, no, not nerubians, not Anub'arak's people, but kin to them, yes. A desert race, these were. Their servants were mammouth creatures with the heads of dogs, golems made of obsidian, who strode across the shining yellow stands.

A symbol appeared, one Arthas knew--the L of Lordaeron, impaled by a sword, but depicated in red, not blue. The symbol changed, became a red flame on a white background. The flame seemed to spark to a life of its own and engulfed the background, burning it away to reveal the silvery waters of a vast expanse of water...a sea...

....Something was roiling just beneathe the ocean's surface. The hitherto-smooth surface began to churn wildly, seething as if from a storm, although the day was clear. A horrible sound that Arthas only dimly recognized as laughter assaulted his ears, along with the screaming of a world wrench from its proper place, hauled upward to face the light of day it had not seen in uncounted centuries...

Green--all was green, shadowy and nightmarish, grotesque images dancing at the corner of Arthas's mind only to dart away before they could be firmly grasped. There was a brief glimpse, gone now--antlers? A deer? A man? It was hard to tell. Hope hung about the figure, but there were forces bent on destroying it--

The mountains themselves came to life, taking giant strides, crushing everything luckless enough to cross their paths. With each mammoth footfall, the world seemed to tremble and shake.

Frostmourne. This at least he knew, and intimately. The sword whirled end over end, as if Arthas tossed it into the air. A second sword rose to meet it--long, inelegant but powerful, with the symbol of a skull embedded in its fearsome blade. A name--"Ashbringer," a sword and yet more than a sword, as was Frostmourne. The two clashed--

Arthas blinked and shook his head. The visions, tumbled, chaotic, heartening, and distrutbing--were gone.

Talgog · 04/23/09, 5:05 PM

Originally Posted by Chirality

Thanks for the summary....though I'm kinda sad about a number of the retconn/spoilers you mentioned (Forgotten Ones, indeed).

One of the things that I continually find odd about the Old Gods vs. Titans is how weak they make the Burning Legion look, by comparison. The Legion is at times described as slowly "setting the universe aflame", yet the Old Gods don't even seem to care about them at all, other than as pawns (see: first Well of Eternity) to free themselves. They've set up a "Titans vs. Old Gods" war, in which the Titans are (perhaps) more powerful than the Old Gods. Yet, the Titans haven't destroyed the Legion? And the Old Gods don't even fear the Legion *at all*?

It's more difficult to explain the Titan's failure to erradicate the Legion than the Old Gods lack of interest. In keeping with the Lovecraftian and "I was old when this world was young" vibe of such beings, they almost would not notice something on the pathetic scale of the Legion or Scourge. Almost all of the Legion and its splinters would be insects before an Old God. Combine that with a timescale that makes the three Eredar (Archimonde, Kil'Jaeden and Valen) seem like fruit flies and maybe it isn't worthy of notice.

One of my friends thought of it somewhat like what happened in the last season of Angel. For very convoluted preordained reasons, that universe's great sleeping Old One, named Illyria, is resurrected. Illyria proceeds to walk all over everyone as suits itself, including complete disregard and contempt for a demon force that is planning an apocalypse (as in "I'll demolish several of your dimensions to find one human I want to rescue because it suits me"). This isn't necessarily smart but you could see much the same thing with an Old God and Legion demons.

The Titans, on the other hand, do care about demonic corruption. Perhaps they simply can't reach the Twisting Nether bases of the Legion; have they ever been credited with a presence there at all? Destroying non-Nether planets is not a good way to fight the Legion, since that's exactly what they want to do as well. Would it be above Kil"Jaeden to send a large number of warrior demons onto a world, get the Titans' attention, and then force them fry it? That won't even succeed in killing the demons because they go back to the Nether.

EDIT: Although, whoever said the Titans were winning? The dialoge from Agalon states they've had to purge an awful lot of worlds they seeded.

Leviathon · 04/23/09, 5:46 PM

Originally Posted by Faeviactus

As was stated this really could be the long con, with some course correction. YS knew that Loken's death was leading to Algalon calling the Titans. He NEEDED a raid on Ulduar to take down Algalon. So he needed to be become or appear to be an imminent and dangerous threat. If this is true though then he is not referring to Algalon as their imminent demise since he was hoping that would kill him in the first place. His Con may be continuing then. YS's plan though may be bigger than YS though. There is likely much more to know about the history of these Old Gods.

I can see this being the beginning of the main story for the Old Gods and that we will see it expanded upon even more in the next expansion whether it is the Maelstrom or the Emerald Dream. The dream definitely helps hint about the future but seems to bring up both the Maelstrom and Emerald Dream. The entire dream though seemed to focus on products of the Old Gods (or areas where they are at) with the Qiraji, the Maelstrom and the Nightmare in the Emerald Dream.

Spleen · 04/23/09, 7:12 PM

Originally Posted by Emeraude

Frostmourne.... A second sword rose to meet it--long, inelegant but powerful, with the symbol of a skull embedded in its fearsome blade. A name--"Ashbringer," a sword and yet more than a sword, as was Frostmourne. The two clashed--

(One spoiler tag covers it appropriately, so by now there are no virgin eyes to spare.)

If there is any overlap between this book and the Arthas encounter in Wrath, this passage leads me to two possibilities involving a conflict involving the Ashbringer:

1. The author didn't get the memo about the purification of the Corrupted Ashbringer in Tirion Fordring's hands.

2. The Ashbringer will again be corrupted and used in a fight against Arthas, wielded by either Tirion Fordring or Darion Mograine.

That the sword would revert to its corrupted form in the hands of a Death Knight (likely on unholy ground at Icecrown Citadel or otherwise) would make sense, considering it became purified in the hands of arguably the most powerful Paladin alive (on the holy grounds of LHC). I doubt blizzard would cash-in Tirion without an event (raid) like the corruption of Vael, since he nicely fills the void in the "holy crusader" role left when Uther was killed. Blizzard has also not spent any commensurate time developing another Paladin who "is doing it right", but then they could always write-in a hitherto unknown to fill the gap (see Med'an and our former easily disposed of Guardian of Magic).

On the other hand, this would make for a nice tag-team in a raid encounter that mercifully wouldn't involve an insipid Maev <Lays Traps in the Corner> mechanic. "Tirion fights Arthas with Ashbringer for a while, throws the Ashbringer to Darion, who fights Arthas with Corrupted Ashbringer while Tirion bubble-hearths/rests/buffs/dies, repeat until soft/hard enrage or phase change, raid leader calls for bloodlust." Maybe Tirion would discover being a Death Knight ain't so bad after all, either of them would become the new Lich King, and/or Darion and his Knights find redemption.

The Knights of the Ebon Blade and the Argent Crusade seem to fall easily in the previously used category of newly introduced factions that have an initial conflict but shake hands in the end and eulogize over the "corpse" of the expansion's final raid boss (like the Aldor/Dranei and Scryers/Blood Elves in TBC's Sunwell resolution).

Maybe blizzard will surprise us instead.

Jebraltar · 04/23/09, 7:58 PM

The Knights of the Ebon Blade and the Argent Crusade seem to fall easily in the previously used category of newly introduced factions that have an initial conflict but shake hands in the end and eulogize over the "corpse" of the expansion's final raid boss (like the Aldor/Dranei and Scryers/Blood Elves in TBC's Sunwell resolution).

I don't think that's really an accurate comparison. The Ebon Blade feels that the Argent Crusade does things in a stupid, wasteful way, and the Argent Crusade has a lot of members who are unnerved by Death Knights, consider their methods disturbing, and were there for the LHC event...but they actually have very little in the way of conflict between them. The Scryers and Aldors were basically at war with each other, with only their common respect for the Naaru keeping them apart. Neither side is yelling at the leaders to not accept the other - Tirion Fordring and Darion Mograine in particular seem to have a strong respect for each other.

Spleen · 04/23/09, 8:17 PM

Originally Posted by Jebraltar

but they actually have very little in the way of conflict between them.

I'll be more clear.

The Aldor summoned the Naaru to Shattrath and defended the city from the forces of Illidan in a conflict that occurred prior to the player involvement in TBC. From that contingent of Illidan's forces came the Scryers. The previous conflict ensured enmity between the two factions. Both didn't have open conflict (aside from npc guards), but unified in the Shattered Sun Offensive later.

The Knights of the Ebon Blade and the Argent Crusade are comprised of the remnants of the Battle of LHC, an open conflict between the precursors to the current aforementioned groups. They later united in opposition to the Scourge in Icecrown. The KotEB constantly criticize the Argent Crusade for not being aggressive and ruthless enough against the Scourge, while the latter defends on grounds that they don't want to become as bad as the monsters they're facing.

So far, Wrath is on course to be the same as TBC in the ways mentioned earlier.

Monocle · 04/24/09, 9:43 AM

With all the Old God talk lately, I have been thinking about how the Naga fit in all of this. Azshara was pretty much forced into working for them, either agree or drown, so we may have a very interesting dynamic there when we finally go to the maelstrom. The Qiraji were completely and totally devoted to C'Thun, the Iron Dwarf forces of Loken seem to be in a similar boat, but the Naga invovlement with the Old Gods has been limited to the one section in a book, and the reference to Neptulon in Steam Vaults. In the case of the Steam Vaults, Vashj's forces for the most part had no problems with stopping any veneration of Neptulon, other then some holdouts, such as the quest giver who gives us this bit of information. Even in this case it is just the Naga connected to an Old God general, who at this point may not even be taking orders from them.

I just can't see Azshara liking her followers worshiping anyone but herself either, she is just way too self absorbed. She is also pretty clever from what we know. She could be tryignt o fidn anyway out of the current arangement so she can concentrate on her own plans instead of beign a lacky.

With this in mind, and if we do do get a Maelstrom expansion, what if we had this set up?

First raiding Tier
Oh no, Naga and elementals are bringing Neptulon to Azeroth, lets stop them!

Next Tier
Woo, we stopped Neptulon, oh dear he managed to set in motion the unlocking of the next Old God!

Final Tier
Old God is dead! Azshara also now is not under the thumb of an outside force, Naga invade everywhere. Azshara is very happy.

This would also help build up Azshara a bit and make her a little more familiar to the players, as she is a bit obscure comapred to the likes of the big baddies we had in the last expansions.

Liebestod · 04/24/09, 11:06 AM

Yeah, I envisage something similar for the relationship between Azshara and her patron Old God... you can see it in the made-up expansion wishlist thing that I've worked on some (User:Hhallahh/Rising Tempest - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft) I wouldn't be surprised to see Azshara subtly work to betray the Old God (and Neptulon, who I'd imagine would make an appearance as the Old God's ally), using the players of course. I could kinda see the Old God and Azshara both being the final bosses of the expansion, kinda like the Yogg-Saron / Arthas thing. Yeah, okay, Arthas is the real final boss, but that's only by virtue of the fact that an Old God will never make as appealing a final boss as an established lore character.