Just another example of how reckless (euphemism alert!) it was to build a playground on the doorstep of the Lich King. The whole tournament could have been a nice idea, but it does seem lackluster, with all the hard-to-fit, unnecessary deaths. Fordring is playing god with his theories on "natural" selection.
Let's hope Icecrown doesn't suffer from the same "filler-episode" symptoms. Blizzard has all the time in the world to cook a nice plot for it.
Speaking of which, I'm curious as to how we'll be entering the Citadel. Another hole in the wall? Or will Fordring just throw his newfound champions against the front doors?
It would be a bit of a boring ending for the brother of Broxigar though, to die to a human.
Well, we shouldn't underestimate Wrynn, he decapitated a dragon, after all. Though I assume it would be much more dignifying to see Saurfang being killed by his son. Or killing his son for good. And reappering for Cataclysm. But, truth is, he's getting oldish. And, like the song said, "Time to die!". Maybe he boards the Alliance's flyingmagic and cleaves the engines to a halt, then proceeds to whirlwind the mages and ends up killed by a half-hp bar Varian.
Neither of them die in the 5 man. We kill normal Argent Crusade NPC's before we fight them and they give up.
No, of course they don't. But as you say, there are 9 other Argent Crusade NPCs that do though. It really makes Fordring look like he has some sort of twisted double standard.
Well, it's the way they would have wanted to go *cough*
Joke aside, we don't know they actually stay dead. And even if it would so happen that they do, it was probably unintentional (yeah, who would have known Anub'arak decided to be a party crasher?)
Originally Posted by XI-
In summary, TBC raiding is easy. 9/10 encounters can be summarized with 1 phrase. Stay out of the fucking fire. If this is too difficult BWL was still there last I checked, so go have at it for some practice.
No, of course they don't. But as you say, there are 9 other Argent Crusade NPCs that do though. It really makes Fordring look like he has some sort of twisted double standard.
18.
3 sets of 3 on mounts before the first "boss" trio.
3 sets of 3 on the ground before Paletress/Eadric.
To add insult to injury, we even take the money from the pockets of the second 9. Looting in the middle of the arena in front of Tirion. How dignified.
As has been said, the Black Knight turns them into his Army of the Dead. They're not coming back.
Even if Rez is an accepted in-game mechanic (which again, I don't think it is - more exception than rule, Whitemane feels more like good play trumping lore), letting folks die in Icecrown (zone, not Citadel) seems risky. The chance of plague infection seems unreasonable.
Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."
For shamans, there is a bit of an explanation in lore as to how rezzing works (and why sometimes it doesn't). In the Lord of the Clans, Drek'Thar says that when his mate died, he demanded that the spirit of the wilds return her to life (meaning hypothetically shamans can do that) but the spirit refused. So Thrall could have asked the spirit to return Hellscream and/or Doomhammer and/or Taretha to life (and he probably did in his head where its never shown anywhere in lore) but the spirit refused, probably because it was his/her "time to go" kind of thing. And if you look back at it, all of their deaths did serve a purpose.
That would have probably been a nice plot point opportunity that was missed in the LoC novel, where Thrall would rage at the spirit of the wilds to return Taretha but then remembers Drek'Thar's lesson, or something like that.
Thrall, however, seemed to have an innate understanding of the spirit, on a more personal level than Drek'thar, even. A "Chosen One" thing. The book's pretty extensive as to what he experiences when he sees Taretha's head before him, actually. And, maybe because he heard Drek'thar's story, Thrall never wishes for Tari's (we dated for a while, she lets me use her nickname) ressurrection, merely raging. Actually, that rage seems to take a hold on him so fast (it shows up multiple times throughout the story) he doesn't really wish for anything else but Blackmoore's death. Mayhap ressurrection is something only available to higher powers - although we do see that blood elf priest ressurrect the orc warr in TBC's intro - and out of the mortal's grasp. Drek'thar asked the spirit because that's how shamanism works...or, it just might be that every healer has to appeal to their higher power to ressurrect someone. Paladins and priests are known to "talk" to the Light, even if they don't ask for their power, and the Light, as we know it, comes from sentient beings - actually, some sort of demi-demi-gods. So, ressurrection may be, in a way, a "special edition" service provided by the higher powers only to those they deem deserving.
The only thing that decides whether a character lives or dies is the need to progress the story, not any sense of realism. It's like the Final Fantasy effect...General Leo can take meteors to the friggin head, but then some clown kills him with a butterknife or Aeris can be slashed ans stabbed thousands of times by common enemies, but then dies to a single sword thrust.
So, ressurrection may be, in a way, a "special edition" service provided by the higher powers only to those they deem deserving.
Right, this is kind of what I was getting at. That resurrection is an ability granted by the higher powers, but only when it serves their purpose. So a group of adventurers die fighting a menacing evil? No worries, you're all good guys doing cool stuff, you can get up and do it again. Doomhammer dies? Sorry, he needs to stay dead for Thrall to take the mantle of leadership and become a super cool dude in the future. The asterisk to that, is PVP. Maybe the higher powers enjoy watching us kill each other again and again. Maybe they make a friday night of it, with chips and beer. You can't spell slaughter without laughter.
Joking aside, rezzing is just a required gameplay mechanic (imagine playing wow on diablo's hardcore mode), i don't think we should read too much into its lore. Wisps, for example, are ancient spirits of nature, capable of turning into ancients. Wow gameplay treats them quite differently, as a "cool factor" for nelfs. It would kick ass to turn into an ancient instead of a puny nelf after a corpse run though.
Joking aside, rezzing is just a required gameplay mechanic (imagine playing wow on diablo's hardcore mode), i don't think we should read too much into its lore. Wisps, for example, are ancient spirits of nature, capable of turning into ancients. Wow gameplay treats them quite differently, as a "cool factor" for nelfs. It would kick ass to turn into an ancient instead of a puny nelf after a corpse run though.
It was actually speculated in Warcraft 3 and other sources that they were possibly spirits of passed night elves.
After that entire Brother's Bronzebeard line I'll be pissed if Muradin (and/or Magni) doesn't have a role in the downfall of Arthas.
Actually, I am not sure who the Taunaka equivalent is, but s/he should have a role too. Is it too much to ask for a Rajax-esq first encounter? qq. (like, for example imagine for Argent Crusade, Ebon Blade, Frostborn, Seventh Legion soldiers fighting on the field, finally clearing up till the first boss, where the boss is done with support of some Seventh Legion (and maybe Ebon Blade) npcs, just like Rajax).
[e] To me it always seem implied/insinuated the Wisps were spirit of Night Elves, not nature.
Originally Posted by arison
Everyone should start from the same place and rise based on their abilities, desires, and schedule. No one plays MMOs to *be* powerful, they play MMOs to *become* powerful. It's the journey, stupid. The rarer loot is, the more cherished it is when you get it, but only so long as there is a reasonable expectation to get it. The rarer loot is, the better it feels when you kill a boss or when $AWESOME_TRINKET drops.
I've been going off the information on WoWWiki for the most part (although I agree you can't necessarily cite a wiki as trufax).
Wisps are ancient spirits of nature that inhabit the forestlands of Kalimdor...Wisps are mysterious “forest spirits” of unknown origin.
It also says
Some human scholars think that wisps are the souls of deceased night elves, but these claims have yet to be proven, and are met with near mockery among the night elves.
The source for the article seems to be the Warcraft 3 manual, the manual of monsters and the alliance player's guide. I don't have access to these, but that last quote seems pretty solid. If they were the spirits of night elves, night elves themselves would know and accept this, given the thousands of years of interaction between the two.
Aside: There are way too many groups involved (or potentially involved) in defeating Arthas. The alliance, the horde, the argent crusade, the knights of the ebon blade, the kirin tor, the naaru, the dragonflights, scarlet onslaught, the cenarion circle, the earthen ring, all of these groups have some stake in bringing him down. It could get very crowded inside icecrown. And that's not to mention the individuals that all have an emotional and personal reason to be there: tirion, darion, varian, sylvannas, jaina, balnazzar, saurfang, muradin. The story is very overloaded with people and groups that want him dead, its going to be very hard to involve all of them, and there will be story holes if they aren't all involved in some way.
EDIT: The reason I included the naaru was because of the speculation a few pages back, and the ashbringer possibility. It was my understanding that Dalaran was moved to northrend specifically to fight the scourge (although I could be wrong about this.) The dragons (well the red anyway) were directly involved at the wrathgate (though not strictly against the Lich King, i guess) and might play a part if galkarond is somehow involved in icecrown (somewhat unlikely). I included the cenarion circle and earthen ring because both Rayne and Rimbalat were involved in the battle of light's hope chapel, and both are present at Zul'Drak. The CC also has a member at the argent tournament (though not as a participant). Overall, I was trying to get across that there are a lot of groups who have a vested interest in taking arthas down. Most of it's speculation or potential storylines that probably won't happen.
Aside: There are way too many groups involved (or potentially involved) in defeating Arthas. The alliance, the horde, the argent crusade, the knights of the ebon blade, the kirin tor, the naaru, the dragonflights, scarlet onslaught, the cenarion circle, the earthen ring, all of these groups have some stake in bringing him down. It could get very crowded inside icecrown. And that's not to mention the individuals that all have an emotional and personal reason to be there: tirion, darion, varian, sylvannas, jaina, balnazzar, saurfang, muradin. The story is very overloaded with people and groups that want him dead, its going to be very hard to involve all of them, and there will be story holes if they aren't all involved in some way.
I suspect this is what the 5-man(s) are going to be for. I'm betting Jaina/Sylvanas/Tirion will be there at the end of the raid, but some of the lesser characters are going to show up during the 5 man to get their licks in.
Also, a lot of your list hasn't shown any real interest in Arthas. The naaru are just sorta like "oh well, that sucks. I'll take this guy to heaven because he's awesome, than I'm gonna jet back to Shatt", both the Kirin Tor and the Dragonflights are recovering from their own wars, the Cenarion circle might be after him because of the Dead Scar, but they sure don't seem like it, and the Earthen Ring haven't been heard from since Nagrand (although I'm hoping they'll get their chance to shine in Cataclysm).
I suspect this is what the 5-man(s) are going to be for. I'm betting Jaina/Sylvanas/Tirion will be there at the end of the raid, but some of the lesser characters are going to show up during the 5 man to get their licks in.
Didn't they mention that Sylvanas was going to be part of one of the 5m dungeons of Icecrown Citadel? I'll try and look it up and link it.
The story is very overloaded with people and groups that want him dead, its going to be very hard to involve all of them, and there will be story holes if they aren't all involved in some way.
Besides an in game viewpoint, there are way too many players from a lore standpoint as well. It makes sense to everybody fighting the lich king's forces from all sides up until the point where you actually face Arthas. Then you want a unified force to confront him in a coordinated manner. If a dozen groups engage him at the same time it would be a clusterfuck that the lich king would definitely take advantage of. I think Blizzard missed an opportunity with the coliseum to unite all the disparate forces under a single banner, or at least the elite members, who would be the ones to actually be involved in the attack on the man baddies in the citadel. Instead you just got a continuation of the same old bickering between horde and alliance.
But I do think there is a way through game mechanics, if Blizzard makes Icecrown as epic as they are claiming, to make sure most o the factions get at least some face time. It could be as simple as including a member of that faction fighting along side of you as an NPC. But I think it would be fun to include the fact that there are so many factions gunning for the lich king to be a mechanic too. Imagine an early encounter that has lots of NPCs assisting from lots of different groups. But instead of them helping you they just cause confusion. They are like a bunch of noobs running in the fire and or standing to close to you. Of course the hard mode would be to keep all those NPCs alive for the fight.
They are like a bunch of noobs running in the fire and or standing to close to you. Of course the hard mode would be to keep all those NPCs alive for the fight.
Or better still - although I don't approve of the ethics behind the choice, but I like the encounter idea - "let all the fools die" kind of hard mode, and ensure supremacy for your own faction (kinda like doing Kaz'rogal without the Tauren, provided the NPCs could actually prove useful in the encounter, rather than just help parry-gib your tanks)
Last edited by Enova : 09/11/09 at 6:28 PM.
Originally Posted by XI-
In summary, TBC raiding is easy. 9/10 encounters can be summarized with 1 phrase. Stay out of the fucking fire. If this is too difficult BWL was still there last I checked, so go have at it for some practice.
I think Blizzard missed an opportunity with the coliseum to unite all the disparate forces under a single banner, or at least the elite members, who would be the ones to actually be involved in the attack on the man baddies in the citadel. Instead you just got a continuation of the same old bickering between horde and alliance.
Unless that was 100% their intention. Instead of unifying before the final strike, cause further chaos, disheartening the Alliance / Horde / [Other] factions before the push is made. (Whether by intent or requirement ... we're still not sure how we get in, and the circumstances by which the event starts ...)
After that entire Brother's Bronzebeard line I'll be pissed if Muradin (and/or Magni) doesn't have a role in the downfall of Arthas.
Actually, I am not sure who the Taunaka equivalent is...
I don't think we really have a parallel to Muradin. Not a Taunka parallel, anyway. I'm sure their chief (whatever his name was) wants a bite out of the Arthas cake, but I doubt I'm the only person who can't remember his name.
We need to remember Darion's part in all of this, too. He's at least as important as Tirion, and likely has a more legitimate reason to be killing Arthas. He still needs to take up the Ashbringer as his father prophesied (not that his father was a prophet), AND we need resolution with what happened to Alexandros' soul after Arthas took it at Light's Hope. I wouldn't be terribly surprised if Tirion either bit the dust or was seriously injured, causing Darion to take up the purified Ashbringer and help bring an end to Arthas along with whoever else is there.
^This. Arguably Blizzard's bitten off more than they can chew, Arthas may be the ultimate enemy, but there's people from 4+ faction who want him dead, leaving any of them out is going to be a faux pas. The final battle may end up having something like notable Hordes fighting notable Alliances; Sylvannas and Muradin get into their own little fight (although Muradin seems more like the type to be fine with someone else taking the glory so long as the Lich King goes down); and Tirion/Darion teaming up to finish him off.
I don't think we really have a parallel to Muradin. Not a Taunka parallel, anyway. I'm sure their chief (whatever his name was) wants a bite out of the Arthas cake, but I doubt I'm the only person who can't remember his name.
We need to remember Darion's part in all of this, too. He's at least as important as Tirion, and likely has a more legitimate reason to be killing Arthas. He still needs to take up the Ashbringer as his father prophesied (not that his father was a prophet), AND we need resolution with what happened to Alexandros' soul after Arthas took it at Light's Hope. I wouldn't be terribly surprised if Tirion either bit the dust or was seriously injured, causing Darion to take up the purified Ashbringer and help bring an end to Arthas along with whoever else is there.
I'd imagine the taunka equivalent (although he isn't actually a taunka and only part of the tribe now) is Trag Highmountain since he mentions we will fight alongside him during the assault.
I can see that happening, I suppose. It would give him a bigger reason for existing in the game, at least. It would be preferable if they explain a bit of his past to us in-game before giving him an important role like that, though. I doubt there are any more people know about Trag than there are who know about what was going on in the Obsidian Sanctum.
Exactly. Their story writers are probably trying to mirror the hypocrisy and blindness sometimes seen in historical conflicts, but it just feels like an artificial spotlight on "look guys, A/H still loathe one another".
Quoted just for the sake of it.
Originally Posted by Exemplar
Saurfang [...] actively withdraw his troops if Alliance started attacking them, let the Alliance take out their aggression on Scourge until they won (at which point he'd jump and crush them if it was approved)
I don't think Saurfang would give an order like that, the quests suggest that it was the troop commander who ordered the attack on the Alliance forces when they were weakened, even Blackscar was surprised (and then proud, sigh) of this.
Originally Posted by Leviathon
I'd imagine the taunka equivalent (although he isn't actually a taunka and only part of the tribe now) is Trag Highmountain since he mentions we will fight alongside him during the assault.
And he is at the Tournament in 3.2, implying some involvement in the assault on Icecrown.
By the way, did you notice how the caves below the coliseum go far further than Anub'arak's room, with Nerubian architecture in the back? With the Coliseum built on the northern edge, wouldn't that be beyond the cliff?
^This. Arguably Blizzard's bitten off more than they can chew, Arthas may be the ultimate enemy, but there's people from 4+ faction who want him dead, leaving any of them out is going to be a faux pas. The final battle may end up having something like notable Hordes fighting notable Alliances; Sylvannas and Muradin get into their own little fight (although Muradin seems more like the type to be fine with someone else taking the glory so long as the Lich King goes down); and Tirion/Darion teaming up to finish him off.
Well, let's say Tirion/Darion in the final encounter, Saurfang/Varian during the Saurfang Jr./Bolvar fight, a Mal'ganis side boss in Icecrown, and Sylvannas/Jaina in the 5 man series.
Everyone else is left out in-game but will probably get their shots in the comic book when Varian "actually" defeats Arthas and the players are written out of it again.
People also seem to be forgetting very quickly the mechanics of the Yogg fight. It could also be very plausible to have us request any number of these high profile NPC's to have them help take a crack at Arthas. Varying levels of hard-mode would then follow by not having them help us. Or they could be present at other locations in the zone and are content to help anyone who has a chance to kill Arthas do so.
Originally Posted by Fellwraith
[Y]ou will tank 3 mobs, and only 3 mobs. 5 shalt thou not tank, nor shalt thou tank 4. Thou shalt not tank 2 mobs unless it is on the way to tanking 3 mobs.
By the way, did you notice how the caves below the coliseum go far further than Anub'arak's room, with Nerubian architecture in the back? With the Coliseum built on the northern edge, wouldn't that be beyond the cliff?
I wouldn't read too much into the relationship between the inside and outside of instances.
While some are very close (Ramparts), others differ slightly (UK), and some have no relationship at all (Drak'tharon).
09/11/09, 7:21 AM
