World of Warcraft - Lore & Storyline discussion [SPOILERS] - Page 213

Duodecimal · 04/28/09, 12:28 PM

Originally Posted by Torrential

I think it's a very safe bet that the Argent Tournament is a wind up for a Flame Leviathann-esque fight in Icecrown. I don't think it has much implication past 3.3.

The point was, if my mind was bent to the task of coming up with a raid for 3.2, I would make damn sure it introduced in some way the theme of the next expansion. The Lich King didn't need much introduction. We don't have many arch-villains left besides Deathwing and Malfurion that can be as easily hyped up as Arthas to the audience.

Aildrik · 04/28/09, 12:44 PM

Originally Posted by Désespoir

Being able to pilot a Bomber does not qualify you for micro surgery.

Sorry; my point was just to address the theory that the Titans had only one way of killing the Old Gods; destroying the entire planet, and nothing less.

As per a previous post of mine a few pages back, there just isn't sufficient lore in game to answer such questions so we can only examine the details currently available. However, just to sum up the salient points:

- We know the Titans have machinery of incredible scale and complexity. IE.. Ulduar, the Engine of the Makers, etc. From available lore, we know they are capable of terraforming, however, the exact way they do this is not explained; maybe they use powerful magic, or maybe they have enormous spacecraft - they seem capable of either option (or maybe a mix of both).

- We know they have killed an Old God (The Master's Glaive).

Just based on those two things, I am waiting for the surprise plot twist where we go "Ohhhhh!!! Ok, yeah they had no choice there!" to explain why they "couldn't, wouldn't...." blah blah.

Judikael · 04/28/09, 6:19 PM

Originally Posted by Munorion

Which is what makes Varian right. I doubt any of the Alliance races would say "Aaaaahhh, you just wanted to use it to exterminate humans, sure, carry on!".
So, from the Alliance point of view, it's clear that Sylvanas planned for the plague to be used against the Alliance. And Sylvanas is one of the Horde's faction leaders, not some misguided faction within the Horde. Plus, she was perfectly fine with testing it on children (if that's what "young girl" means in the quoted paragraph) - that's something I'm sure not only Alliance leaders would find horrible.

Now, that's not to say the Alliance hasn't committed its share of atrocities, but defending Sylvanas on grounds of "she didn't really want that" is pretty much a lost cause after that quote, I think.

I have a question related to this. The Lich King, is he dead or alive? I was always under the impression he's a little of both, not quite dead, but not a normal living human/orc. In any case, if he is not fully undead, Sylvanas' plague wouldn't have worked against him. Perhaps that is why it has to work on both the living and undead alike.

Leviathon · 04/28/09, 6:46 PM

Originally Posted by Judikael

I have a question related to this. The Lich King, is he dead or alive? I was always under the impression he's a little of both, not quite dead, but not a normal living human/orc. In any case, if he is not fully undead, Sylvanas' plague wouldn't have worked against him. Perhaps that is why it has to work on both the living and undead alike.

Believe it has been mentioned he is undead in the sense that when Arthas took Frostmourne he became 'undead' due to the loss of his soul.

Emeraude · 04/28/09, 10:46 PM

Originally Posted by Leviathon

Believe it has been mentioned he is undead in the sense that when Arthas took Frostmourne he became 'undead' due to the loss of his soul.

Metzen specifically said that Arthas is not Undead actually. He never actually died.

BlizzCon Day 2 WoW Lore and Quests panel liveblog

Judikael · 04/29/09, 12:32 PM

Originally Posted by Emeraude

Metzen specifically said that Arthas is not Undead actually. He never actually died.

BlizzCon Day 2 WoW Lore and Quests panel liveblog

The whole tearing the heart out part kinda threw me off. Being as he is considered living, Sylvanas has an excuse for her plague affecting both.

Strom · 04/29/09, 1:00 PM

Is it possible that Arthas is empowered by Yogg via Frostmourne? Meaning that Frostmourne was created/corrupted by Yogg prior to Arthas finding it? Maybe Arthas was being led by Yogg all along when he thought it was the Lich King? There is a lot of Saronite in the cave where Frostmourne was found....

This could also link in to what happens in the new book. Where it appears Arthas has full control over Ner'zhul. Perhaps in the Yogg visions the "Him" being described there is in fact Ner'zhul.

If this is all true, and we defeat Yogg, what effect will this have on Arthas' ability to control Ner'zhul?

Dancing Wu Li Master · 04/29/09, 1:49 PM

Originally Posted by Judikael

The whole tearing the heart out part kinda threw me off. Being as he is considered living, Sylvanas has an excuse for her plague affecting both.

The plague is capable of wiping out an entire race; the fact that it can also kill one particular bad guy isn't a justification that's going to fly with anybody.

♦ Goatbert · 04/29/09, 2:52 PM

I doubt we'll ever get an answer to this - the Lich King isn't technically dead, or at least wasn't technically dead - but didn't him ripping out his own heart and casting it into a pit, then having it destroyed by the Ashbringer, pretty much seal the deal on him being undead now?

To quote Itchy and Scratchy, "You need your heart to live!"

Emeraude · 04/29/09, 3:45 PM

Originally Posted by Strom

Is it possible that Arthas is empowered by Yogg via Frostmourne? Meaning that Frostmourne was created/corrupted by Yogg prior to Arthas finding it? Maybe Arthas was being led by Yogg all along when he thought it was the Lich King? There is a lot of Saronite in the cave where Frostmourne was found....

This could also link in to what happens in the new book. Where it appears Arthas has full control over Ner'zhul. Perhaps in the Yogg visions the "Him" being described there is in fact Ner'zhul.

If this is all true, and we defeat Yogg, what effect will this have on Arthas' ability to control Ner'zhul?

*Bonk* Frostmourne was created by the Legion along with the armor that housed Ner'zhul's spirit.

Chirality · 04/29/09, 3:55 PM

Originally Posted by Emeraude

*Bonk* Frostmourne was created by the Legion along with the armor that housed Ner'zhul's spirit.

To be fair--that doesn't exactly preclude Arthas / Frostmourne from being corrupted by Yogg-Saron. Though, to be honest, I kind of fear that we're reaching for a connection when there isn't one (aside from the whole "scourge loves using saronite" thing). If they wanted Arthas to be connected to Yogg-Saron, he would have showed up at some point in Ulduar to mock/backstab/participate while players kill Yogg-Saron.

Emeraude · 04/29/09, 4:14 PM

Originally Posted by Chirality

To be fair--that doesn't exactly preclude Arthas / Frostmourne from being corrupted by Yogg-Saron. Though, to be honest, I kind of fear that we're reaching for a connection when there isn't one (aside from the whole "scourge loves using saronite" thing). If they wanted Arthas to be connected to Yogg-Saron, he would have showed up at some point in Ulduar to mock/backstab/participate while players kill Yogg-Saron.

It's not a problem, everyone keeps looking for some major revelation or resolution, but we keep getting denied. Perhaps 3.2 will have something that shakes things up.

On a side note Warcraft Legends 4 preview is up

Manga + Comics : Warcraft: Legends - TOKYOPOP

Trag finally reaches the Lich King, who gives a nod to the Arthas novel that only Arthas is in control now.

Strom · 04/29/09, 4:56 PM

Originally Posted by Emeraude

*Bonk* Frostmourne was created by the Legion along with the armor that housed Ner'zhul's spirit.

Yes, I was more thinking it could have been corrupted by Yogg.

Elhandil · 04/30/09, 4:40 AM

It could be possible that Yogg-Saron detected Ner'zhuls arrival on Northrend and immediately began to influence / encourage him to break free from the Burning Legon's grip, seeing him as another new way to escape his prison. But I doubt that the whole "Arthas becomes new Lich King" line was planned by Yogg-Saron.

Spink · 04/30/09, 10:11 AM

Anyone else read Archavon's Log in the titan relic room of Wintergrasp? Pretty interesting duality in that it could be time line points covered in it or just meaningless entries that one would expect to see in a boring journal.

The most recent entry is "Day 3613785" and the first entry which says"The makers left. Archavon left here to watch." is Day 10.

Day 900500 seems like some kind of event caused Northrend (or just Wintergrasp) to get cold, that's ~2465 earth years since the beginning of the Journal/the leaving of the Makers.

Day 1051213 says that he wakes up and his face feels soft, seems sort of like a hint towards the beginnings of the curse of flesh corruption. This is 2878 years after the Makers left.

Day 2145617 says that there are large quakes outside and that the little people seem to be busy... this could be the sundering? This is 5874 years after the Makers left but I think I recall seeing things saying that Illidan was imprisoned for 10,000 years after the Sundering?

Day 3613725 says that people have started battling for control of WG after coming across the ocean which seems to be putting it in the present. This is 9839.8 years after the Makers left.

Could be sorta interesting stuff or just a joke thing. I don't think there's any real confirmation that an Azerothian year is 365.25 days like ours although I believe it would be logical to assume so from the in game calendar and the events that are associated with it.

Full transcript of the thing can be found in the comments here: Archavon's Log - Object - World of Warcraft