World of Warcraft - Lore & Storyline discussion [SPOILERS] - Page 215

Liebestod · 05/06/09, 12:14 PM

Yeah, I guess the Chilton interview strongly implies that either there will be an Argent Tournament raid (Coliseum?), or none at all... maybe another CoA one at best, something small.

I guess it's not entirely surprising, though. The original raid they had planned for 3.2 (Azjol-Nerub) was scrapped along with that zone, and anything they would have replaced it with would've been kinda tangential to the main Northrend plots. My guess is that we'll just have a big wait between Ulduar and Icecrown, and that's largely why Ulduar was delayed as much as it was... because if they can push off implementing Icecrown until late fall or even the winter, they might be able to hold over the playerbase until the next expansion which will probably be announced at Blizzcon. I'd guess that they're really working hard on it and plan to have it out in Q1 or Q2 or 2010.

It's also worth wondering what exactly they plan on doing to close Act II of the WotLK story, given 3.2 being mostly AT stuff... presumably that will happen in 3.2 because it doesn't seem to be in 3.1.

Aildrik · 05/06/09, 1:46 PM

I'm curious, but is there 100% inside information that Azjol Nerub was planned and then scrapped? Or is this an educated assumption? Real pity; seems like passing on a goldmine of lore and content.

Liebestod · 05/06/09, 1:50 PM

Right after WotLK was announced Blizzard reps said that there would be a raid in Azjol-Nerub against an Old God. Adding Azjol-Nerub as a zone was scrapped sometime during the alpha or so, though, so Yogg-Saron was moved to Ulduar and the replacement for the 3.2 raid become a mystery of much speculation. This now appears resolved, however - there will be no real 3.2 raid. :P

Leviathon · 05/06/09, 2:18 PM

No raid between Ulduar and Icecrown would go against what Blizzard said they won't do again. They already saw what a mistake the time between BT and Sunwell was and I really doubt they expect hard modes to hold people off till next year when 3.3 comes (since we won't see 3.2 till later this year around September at the earliest). He didn't say there would be a raid in 3.2 or not but he wasn't exactly asked that and for all we know that is one of the things he is not allowed to tell us (he may be the Lead Dev but PR still controls what he can say). Considering the raid was a secret before (and this was said after Azjol-Nerub was dropped)I doubt it has become any less of a secret now.

Liebestod · 05/06/09, 4:14 PM

He said that the "big thing" in 3.2 would be more Argent Tournament stuff (although I guess the new BG might be bigger.) Suffice to say I don't think there's going to be a big Argent Tournament raid, and there are rumors of some kind of Coliseum... so I guess that's probably what you should expect, if anything. If there were a non-AT related raid of decent importance, it would be the big thing.

I really doubt that we won't see 3.3 until 2010, though. I think 3.1 was pushed back precisely because they didn't want to make the gap between Ulduar and Icecrown incredibly long, not because it really took them that long to develop Ulduar. I'd guess that we won't see 3.2 until fall, but I doubt 3.3 will be far behind it.

andastra · 05/06/09, 5:51 PM

Considering WotLK was released 22 months after TBC was released, I'd say it's safe to assume that the next expansion would take roughly the same time. 22 months after WotLK would put the next expansion around a September 2010 timeframe, give or take a couple of months. There's no way Ulduar and Icecrown Citadel would last for the next 16 months. That's too long a time for only a couple of raids. There should be another, unless development time for the next expansion is a lot shorter than past ones.

Most indications point to the 3.3 raid as Icecrown Citadel. If there's no new raid in 3.2, then there should be one after 3.3. Considering the next expansion's main villain likely isn't a Warcraft 3 main character, that could be a good introduction for whoever it is. However, considering many people were disappointed that Illidan wasn't the final villain in TBC, they probably would introduce the mystery raid before Icecrown Citadel. Even if it's to introduce the main villian for the next expansion, it wouldn't look that out of place for it to happen before facing Arthas.

Liebestod · 05/06/09, 7:01 PM

Originally Posted by andastra

Considering WotLK was released 22 months after TBC was released, I'd say it's safe to assume that the next expansion would take roughly the same time. 22 months after WotLK would put the next expansion around a September 2010 timeframe, give or take a couple of months. There's no way Ulduar and Icecrown Citadel would last for the next 16 months. That's too long a time for only a couple of raids. There should be another, unless development time for the next expansion is a lot shorter than past ones.

Most indications point to the 3.3 raid as Icecrown Citadel. If there's no new raid in 3.2, then there should be one after 3.3. Considering the next expansion's main villain likely isn't a Warcraft 3 main character, that could be a good introduction for whoever it is. However, considering many people were disappointed that Illidan wasn't the final villain in TBC, they probably would introduce the mystery raid before Icecrown Citadel. Even if it's to introduce the main villian for the next expansion, it wouldn't look that out of place for it to happen before facing Arthas.

a) I'd put money on the next expansion being out before 22 months after TBC.

b) The devs have said 3.3 would be the last content patch of WotLK, and would feature Arthas. No Sunwell-type instance here.

I think people are underestimating the fact that Blizzard has shifted almost all of its development resources away from WotLK content. I mean, in the TBC content cycle you had 3 raid instances added (4 if you count Hyjal), one 5-man instance added, a bunch of flying mount content, and a new (small) zone. The entire WotLK content cycle, otoh, will likely only have 2 raid instances (and Ulduar was largely done in the beta), one 5-man, and some AT stuff. It's pretty clear that Blizzard shifted all of its resources to the next expansion before WotLK was even released, and I think that's why we'll see a greatly-expedited expansion cycle. We'll probably see the third expansion in its alpha versions by the end of the year.

Leviathon · 05/07/09, 2:43 AM

Originally Posted by Liebestod

a) I'd put money on the next expansion being out before 22 months after TBC.

b) The devs have said 3.3 would be the last content patch of WotLK, and would feature Arthas. No Sunwell-type instance here.

I think people are underestimating the fact that Blizzard has shifted almost all of its development resources away from WotLK content. I mean, in the TBC content cycle you had 3 raid instances added (4 if you count Hyjal), one 5-man instance added, a bunch of flying mount content, and a new (small) zone. The entire WotLK content cycle, otoh, will likely only have 2 raid instances (and Ulduar was largely done in the beta), one 5-man, and some AT stuff. It's pretty clear that Blizzard shifted all of its resources to the next expansion before WotLK was even released, and I think that's why we'll see a greatly-expedited expansion cycle. We'll probably see the third expansion in its alpha versions by the end of the year.

Only 3 instances were added but there were more instances that shipped with TBC (it would of been like Ulduar shipping with WotLK). It just isn't reasonable at all on Blizzards part to expect Ulduar and Icecrown Citadel to be enough content. Considering the raid was a secret before I doubt it has become any less of a secret now but I guess we will find out in the coming months. I doubt they moved all their resources to the next expansion before WotLK was even released either considering I remember a interview with Morhaine after WotLK's release with him stating they still hadn't decided what the next expansion was. I just am hoping Blizzard is not going to make the same mistake they made with TBC with there being too long of a period between true raids. Since the coliseum we know will be a PvE type thing and will probably be a instance then I guess it comes down to what type of instance it could end up being.

3.3 will be Icecrown Citadel and the Icecrown Citadel 5 man that was added into the files (and probably will have Bolvar as the boss) so at least we already know what to expect with that.

Keldin · 05/07/09, 5:43 AM

Or maybe Blizzard is doing it right and keeping the 3.2 raid a well guarded secret. Just because they didn't talk about it in the interview, doesn't mean there isn't something in store for us. I may be mistaken, but I remember something from the WWI 2008 that there will be a raid in 3.2, even though Azjol Nerub as a raid and a zone was scrapped.

Even if there isn't a raid in 3.2, which I refuse to believe, they have some loose ends to connect to the next expansion. Which could possibly be Maelstrom or Emerald Dream related. I do not see the Argent Tournament doing that.

MatsT · 05/07/09, 9:58 AM

Originally Posted by Liebestod

b) The devs have said 3.3 would be the last content patch of WotLK, and would feature Arthas. No Sunwell-type instance here.

They also said 3.2 would feature a "secret" raid instance. If they change that, there's no reason they couldn't change the plans for 3.3 and 3.4 too. Maybe secret raid will be pushed to 3.3 and Icecrown to 3.4, or 3.3 will be Icecrown and 3.4 secret raid. Or, the 3.2 secret raid could be just that, secret.

Monocle · 05/07/09, 10:11 AM

Originally Posted by Keldin

Or maybe Blizzard is doing it right and keeping the 3.2 raid a well guarded secret. Just because they didn't talk about it in the interview, doesn't mean there isn't something in store for us. I may be mistaken, but I remember something from the WWI 2008 that there will be a raid in 3.2, even though Azjol Nerub as a raid and a zone was scrapped.

Even if there isn't a raid in 3.2, which I refuse to believe, they have some loose ends to connect to the next expansion. Which could possibly be Maelstrom or Emerald Dream related. I do not see the Argent Tournament doing that.

Tom Chilton did also mention they want to try to do patches that have something for everyone now, so I think we may see another raid.

Hmmm you know, there is still a chance we could see an Azjol-Nerub based raid. Maybe while constructing the Colliseium, the workers crack open an isolated Nerubian settlement and we have to head in and stop them from attacking. It is a reach, but that could be very doable, and bring in the stuff that was mentioned concerning the Vizers.

Douglas · 05/07/09, 10:32 AM

Originally Posted by MatsT

They also said 3.2 would feature a "secret" raid instance.

It wouldn't completely shock me if they pulled a really big surprise out of their asses in this regard, though. Is something along the lines of "oh, by the way, we went and added a Heroic mode to all the Classic raids, so now you can do them at the current progression level if you want to" impossible?

Lileith · 05/07/09, 11:14 AM

I'm not sure if the discussion still belongs to Lore & Storyline , but I remember a few months ago someone suggested something about Pve Arenas and blues mentioned they liked the idea.

The Coliseum might be a good choice for that kind of event. It could be pretty much in the line of Zul'drak / Ring of Blood arena. But with friendly (not to death) duels/skirmish , it would allows players to face most famous non hostile npc who are likely going to be involved in the war versus the Lich King (Tirion, Rhonin Jaina etc..). And would remain in the current Tournament spirit "let's train dueling each other before assaulting Icecrown"

It could also finally provide some 5 man challenging content.

Exemplar · 05/07/09, 11:20 AM

Originally Posted by Douglas

It wouldn't completely shock me if they pulled a really big surprise out of their asses in this regard, though. Is something along the lines of "oh, by the way, we went and added a Heroic mode to all the Classic raids, so now you can do them at the current progression level if you want to" impossible?

Not impossible, but highly, highly improbable.

Simply from the sheer amount of loot required. They'd need L80 itemized loot in all of those instances for Heroic mode. If they went for abbreviated loot lists then you'd get the "We need to do SSC for our tanks to get item X, but our casters don't want anything there, they all want to run BWL instead." Both for those interested in loot (probably a majority of raiders, regardless that people always say they just want to see the content) and those who want to hard core raid and are looking to gear up for the next hard mode it will cause raiding issues.

If they have full loot lists (10-15ish items a boss?) for every historical raid you'll have tons of "useless" crap. Not because it's truly useless, but because item X, Y, or Z is clearly itemized in a superior fashion. Do we really want larger gluts of Abyss Crystals?

This is completely disregarding the ease of a lot of these instances, even if tuned to L80, unless they make mechanics changes. Kill/tank the adds, spam cleanse/remove curse, kill the boss describes a vast majority of vanilla raid fights. Compared to current mechanics that's sleepwalk worthy. Half the reason Naxx was easy was folks knew the fights and mechanics were simple (the other half was Blizz tuning it to make it easy).

Level 80 Vaelastrasz. I mean, really.

Maledict · 05/07/09, 11:23 AM

There is absolutely no chance on heaven, hell or earth that they will go back and add heroic modes to previous raid instances. Naxxramus has been a disaster in terms of PR and player satisfaction, going back and doing the same for more recent instances would lose them so many players, so fast that they would suffer in their financials.

Not to mention from a design standpoint it would suck - designers and developers don't want to spend time redoing old raid instances they finished years ago.