Kaejin

@ Darian: You make a good point and you're right that I was looking at the war so far from the perspective of a mortal (naturally). Still, the failing is still in how Arthas' character is conveyed to us. If these defeats truly mean nothing to him, we need some sort of blatantly obvious sign that this is true, otherwise it just looks like Arthas gloating that he's so awesome he doesn't even care. It just looks like he's trying to save face.

In a game where mobs have to respawn infinitely because of game mechanics, the threat of the undead as an endless army that grows as our side dwindles means little. We can't see this in the game because it's something we're used to.

We killed Onyxia (or that hack Varian did, whatever), but her brood is still present and, guess what, we zone into her Lair and she's still alive! That's the kind of game we play, so they need to SHOW us using some scripted events or something that we really accomplished very little.

Are the infinite number of fallen heroes in Icecrown growing with each loss the Alliance and Horde suffer, or are they simply respawning because this is an MMO?

Arthas looks like a chump because of game mechanics, and to keep Deathwing from suffering the same fate, they're either going to need to make heavy use of phasing (I think they probably want to avoid that to keep players from being separated too much) or else very good use of storytelling using scripted events and quest dialog.

Some people here have stated they still view Arthas as a daunting figure, and I'm jealous of their ability to do so. The problem with the rest of us is we just aren't given enough in-game for suspension of disbelief.

Deathwing's success hinges on how well they learn from Arthas' failures (rather, Blizzard's failures with Arthas). I have faith that Deathwing will end up in a better situation, though. Arthas certainly made a much better expansion headliner than Illidan did. I think we can agree on that.

 

Tinwhisker

One of the reasons they gave for only raising the cap to 85 in Cataclysm was that they wanted to work more on the storytelling aspect than the leveling aspect. I certainly hope thins means that more of the quests we do will be very good storytelling quests that move the plot forward. With WotLK we had some of that but the majority of the quests were more about moving us forward through the zone (and into the next) and less about moving the plot forward.

You still need those quests to move you along but they should be supplementary to the storytelling ones. It seemed to be the other way around in WotLK.

You're a lot of DPS, you know that? You wanna' earn 14 achievement points the hard way?

 

Aditu

I think there's two discussions going on here. The one I'm in centers around how incompetent Arthas is made out to be, not what his motives may or may not be. You can't deny the fact that he's suffered defeat after defeat and will ultimately be killed in Icecrown citadel so there's essentially no point here where he can be the bad ass that he was original cast as. How do his motives even factor as relevant?

All I'm stating is that the quests and lore could have been structured in such a way in this expansion pack as to make the assault on Icecrown a necessity, a prayer, a hail mary play. Instead its just the next logical step in containing an incompetent dictator; a character he most certainly was NOT at the end of WCIII.

 

Giulls

Something that has bothered me is how the Lich King seems to be so passive this time around. Rather than the war machine the Scourge was in WC 3 with limitless numbers, right now Arthas is sending three 1 man assaults on the most heavily populated anti-scourge base in Northrend, and Chillmaw, the Black Knight and Anub'Arak fail to inflict more than a few casualties on 'the good side'.

While it can be argued that Arthas is waiting until our time of greatest power to then crush us and turn us, I think that a more interesting story would be to have to triumph over an enemy that, though he may lose battles, makes the victories dubious due to the cost at which they are won. we've seen almost nothing from him for two major patches, barely any changes in Icecrown in each patch showing little progression from either Undead or major Factions, and no phasing showing that anything is happening. Having our 'kill 15 cult of the damned' dailies take us to a small alliance/horde outpost that is always under attack from the Scourge much like the initial base in Howling Fjord is from the Vrykul would aid our perception that we are fighting a real threat that hasn't been stopped even by all our actions in Icecrown. This way it feels more like 'Yeah, I enjoy killing 15 scourge, having breakfast, then killing a few of their field commanders every day. It's a hobby.'

Heck, having that tiny outpost for the Battle Before the Citadel quest be constantly rushed by various types of undead would be a great help in taking what we are doing a little more seriously.

 

dustdog

The Scourge of WC3 (assuming you mean Reign of Chaos and not Frozen Throne) were led by the old Lich King, who was under scrutiny by the Burning Legion. Frozen Throne's scourge presence was diminished in my eyes; there were only a few missions were you specifically fought the scourge, who had become mostly under the employ of the Dreadlords at the time, from what I remember.

Personally I'm surprised no Dreadlord made an appearance during either Naxx; we had Balanzaar in Stratholme, right under the old Naxx, and Mal'Ganis was playing around in Northrend. Wouldn't atleast one of them want to get a piece of him, regardless of whether or not Sargeras told them to?

 

Darian_TruBlade

Not necessarily. Rising in the hierarchy is not the same as rising in power. Think back to the oft-cited "shamanism" incident, where Arthas demonstrates how easily our souls "break" under pressure. It's not beyond intuition to see that souls, like many other things in life, have a time where they become ripe for the taking. Plucking them too soon, or late, results in an inferior product with lowered potential and quality.

He could pick us off at any time, but so long as we have a "shred of potential" he'll wait until that moment of ripeness. It's not that he doesn't care if we're strong or weak, it's that he doesn't care whether we win or lose against his minions. We are, in his eyes, already his minions, we just don't know it yet.

"A man's IQ, yearly income, sexual prowess, ingenuity, physical appearance and generally every other aspect of his character can be condensed down to four digits: his Arena rating." - Zechsy [70 Rogue - Skullcrusher (EU) - 10/23/2007]

 

Aditu

If that were the case, then why bother even being outwardly so active. An intelligent being with that kind of power would be far more insidious in its manipulation then so blatantly blusterous. Furthermore, given the average competence level of Arthas' forces, I'd have to say he's a poor judge of the 'ripeness' of souls. No matter how you wrap it, he most clearly looks like he's going to lose this war. Is there a scripted lore event where he hasn't gotten his ass kicked?

 

Jagiya

You have to be very careful not to simply focus on the window of time in which the WotLK expansion operates. Arthas has had his fair share of victories and atrocities. Look at Quel'Thalas. Look at Dath'Remar Sunstrider. Look at Antonidas. Look at the entire High/Blood Elven population. Look at The Forsaken.

You need to consider all of this when factoring Arthas' accomplishments, not just the rebellion against him. I consider the events of WarCraft III & Rise of the Lich King to tell the story of his tyranny. Wrath of the Lich King tells the progressive story of his defeat. And again, the numerous lives lost and influenced as a direct result of Arthas over the last year in Northrend have been significant. Take a look around at Icecrown; it's a perfect example of all the lives we've lost to him.

But more delicately, look at the non-interactable details of some of the zones. You see butchered human remains, caged soldiers and plagued corpses in Ziggurats and Fleshworks all over Northrend.

And last but not least, everytime you're in Icecrown and you're doing your dailies to kill off 15 Scourge, just think to yourself, "That's 15 of our guys that Arthas took last week."

Arthas has been tremendously successful. We've foiled a few of his plans here and there, but at what cost? Just because it isn't documented in text doesn't mean it didn't happen.

 

Nuke1096

I know...

You're talking about what Blizzard opted to implement in Patch 1.3. I'm talking about what can potentially be in a future a expansion.

 

Jaconis

His motives are important because it explains why he's not been acting like the bad ass everyone wants him to be. He thinks he's toying with us, but in the few situations we've had direct contact with him we've performed better than he expected. This wouldn't be the first time Blizz has had a big bad underestimate the power of their "minions". Hell, the LK himself is exactly that.

Also, his motives explain his "defeats". To him, they are so inconsequential that he really doesn't give a shit. The main argument against this would be something like Wrathgate, but even that was a minimal loss to him. Its like we had an amazing pitcher that we've been secretly training for years, someone we expected to absolutely dominate. Then we bring him out in the second inning of the big game and his first three pitches get blasted into the upper decks (between the minimal damage it actually did to Arthas and the number of people that we lost there).

If you remember correctly, the LK of WCIII had a lot of far reaching plans. It certainly seemed to Arthas (pre-corruption) that he was gaining a lot of ground against the Scourge, but it all ended up being a part of the LK's plan to acquire a body. How do we know that he isn't doing the same thing with us/Tirion/whoever could become the next body for LK. Remember, we only know that Arthas is going to die, not the Lich King. By allowing us to think we have a chance of defeating him, he is bringing us to him, just as he brought Arthas to Frostmourne.

 

Aditu

This really only fuels my argument that the entire Lich King story arc is turning into a huge dud. Some people are really straining at explaining away his incompetence by citing arrogance and even apathy, and to an extent that maybe true but it doesn't make the plot any better or more interesting. The Matthias questline is an excellent example of interacting with Arthas without making him seem like a big goon but elements like that are too far and few between.

Maybe we need to explore the concept of victory in raids a bit further. What if when facing Anub under the Colosseum that instead of a just a singular boss, we faced wave after wave of minibosses led by Anub and Arthas' commanders and the point of the encounter wasn't necessarily to kill Anub, but last long enough for Tirion and co to rescue us? That would setup Icecrown quite nicely in that we'd have singular glimpse at the true power of the Lich King and barely escape.

As it stands, I can't really buy the "oh, he's just toying with us" line because any outcome now short of something like Thrall being the new Lich King (which he won't be) just won't be very interesting.

 

RndmGdNck

Please show me where any developer has said this as we don't even know if ner'zhul part of the LK is still alive.

 

Darian_TruBlade

I'd have to agree that whatever reasonable arguments we can come up with here, Blizzard's implementation of their intent has been less than stellar. I neither doubt that Blizzard intended our minor victories against the Lich King to be just that, minor, nor that despite their intention they fail to properly instill the sense that we really are losing ground even when we win. It's not that it isn't in the game, but that Blizzard simply fails to draw attention to it.

It seems to me that the mechanics for your potential alternative victory scenarios are already in place, just unused as well. The Black Morass and Violet Hold instances already have the basic framework of "fend off endless waves of enemies", they just lack the "and escape" portion.

"A man's IQ, yearly income, sexual prowess, ingenuity, physical appearance and generally every other aspect of his character can be condensed down to four digits: his Arena rating." - Zechsy [70 Rogue - Skullcrusher (EU) - 10/23/2007]

 

Leviathon

When WotLK was announced Metzen said that Arthas would die but the Lich King itself wouldn't. Now that can mean Ner'zhul would still be around or that one of the many heroes who will help us will take the blade and become corrupted.

 

Jaconis

We also know that as of the quest lines in HF, Ner'zhul is still in there because of the whole "I used to be a shaman" scene. What I don't know (and maybe this has been said and I haven't read it yet) is when this is supposed to be in relation to the Arthas book. I can think of arguments for it being before or after the Mathias quests at least.

 

Ashur25

Everything in the Arthas Book happens before WotLK(Except some visions of course). But Arthas still has has Nerzhul's memories and abilities, hence the "i used to be a shaman" speech, but none of his intelligence, cunning,foresight, etc.

 

Emeraude

Warcraft #23 came out, I haven't recieved my issue yet, but Foppish @ Scrolls of lore posted a Synopsis.

Issue 23 Comic synopsis - Scrolls of Lore Forums

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=CX81UJZ8
For the lurking Phoenix Wright faithful.
What is the most important thing to you? Won't you grant me the pleasure of taking it away.

 

Faldrath

Just read the comic as well, and yes, the most interesting things are that Med'an is supposed to be the Guardian (not Thrall), and that Cho'gall is doing, well, exactly what Blizzard told us Deathwing would do for Cataclysm - destroy the barriers keeping the elemental planes away from Azeroth.

 

Starfire

You assume Deathwing isn't Cho'gall's master; or they share a master.

 

Kaejin

I think it's likely that Deathwing and Cho'gall are being used to the same end. Cho'gall weakens the barrier and Deathwing steals his thunder, spectacularly shattering the face of Azeroth as he bridges the gap.

I'll be very curious to see if they decide to use another Old God so soon or if they'll save it for Cataclysm Part 2: Electric Boogaloo. I'd hate for them to be overused as raid bosses, especially when so far they've all been kind of in-betweens to the main plot of the expansion. Playing second-fiddle doesn't really seem to fit for beings of their stature and overall importance to the Warcraft storyline (of course, being in the limelight doesn't fit their style either).

 

Cosa

This can open up a line to explain why Thral is becoming new Guardian.

 

Bierzkrieg

Somehow, I don't think "used" applies to Deathwing. Cho'gall and other ogre mages are known for functioning in a permanent "Yes, master-mode", but Deathwing has betrayed the Old Gods before, in War of the Ancients. He's become massively egotistical and self-centered, and even in terms of power balance, I think controlling Deathwing to the point of unquestioning servitude would prove a straining task even for an Old God.

I'm still rather confident Blizzard will be able to surprise us, even if Arthas and the Lich King die, and willing to go into Icecrown with a notion that this was Blizzard's first attempt at providing interaction with a Big Bad Guy - which I'm rather against, to be honest, since I prefer the villain to appear and impact the story rather than talk to us like any Power-Rangers baddie - and their intentions above their implementation. I've said it before, there's, I believe, little room for surprises as to the fate of Arthas and the Lich King itself. The real "whoa" will derive from the outcome. One of our heroes dies (my bet is on Saurfang, prompting the rise of an uncontrolled Garrosh), Varian decides to take Frostmourne to Stormwind in order to keep it in check (so someone will go for it when a greater threat arrises), Jaina takes the mantle of the Lich Queen, whatever.

Above all, Cataclysm should take into account that we won't be thwarting much. We're not on the offensive. The main goal we can aspire to in the next expansion is to put out the greatest number of fires (Hyjal pun not intended) possible. This, I think, should be the logic behind Cataclysm's mood. It's a greater conflict, we won't be fighting zombies but Dragonkin, elementals, Naga. We're heroes, yes, but to little effect. Against elemental lords and dragons, our forces have created a new Tirisfal (or Theramore) Council and a Guardian. We should feel that sense of insignificance, of being in the middle of a titanic clash. It'd make each (true) victory more significant.

 

Kaejin

"Used" doesn't imply that Deathwing is willingly or knowingly serving anyone. Through manipulation and subtle influence, leading Deathwing to do what they want him to do without the Old Gods showing their presence would likely lead to a much more stable servant. As long as Deathwing thinks what he's doing is his idea, who would there be to snub with betrayal?

Deathwing is a being with enough power to thwart most plans the Old Gods could cook up, so it wouldn't make sense if they weren't being very cautious about how they handle him.

 

Mr. Crow

The real question is how the Old Gods succeed in doing this when Deathwing is a) as demigodly as he is and b) the Twilight's Hammer, only remaining active agents of the Old Gods, are going into Deathwing's camp come the Cataclysm.

 

Cybsled

Deathwing is paranoid, but more importantly, he *likes* it when others do his dirty work. Not only does it amuse him, but it gives him the feeling of playing the puppet master.

Although he likely doesn't realize his exposure to Old Gods made him loco, he will no doubt "use them" for his own ends feeling that he always has the upper hand. In many ways, he's not different from Azshara, although her preferred method is to make a greater power respect/love/value her enough to give her, in turn, greater power.