World of Warcraft - Lore & Storyline discussion [SPOILERS] - Page 218

Leviathon · 05/08/09, 2:20 PM

Originally Posted by Judikael

There's this, and also, who's to say they don't just update Moonglade in the real world either? Things don't have to stay the same size or the exact same as they are right now. Silithis was changed dramatically in the past, the same could be done here. It wouldn't necessarily have to be the exact mirror image either. It is corrupted there, so it would be Azeroth, but a very twisted version, requiring some new artwork. I'm not opposed to that at all, plus I know my way around already, heh.

Also, as far as ED not having a big baddy to kill at the end, we don't really know for certain what is corrupting the Dream. All we know is a lot of badass druids are there trying to fix it. If Malfurion or Cenarius can't fix it, it has to be something pretty serious going on there. The lore isn't existing but make a book, a comic series, a few videos, or even some quests/events to lead in and we're up to speed.

With the direction Blizzard is taking with lore characters now I can see us killing a Nightmare corrupted Ysera in a ED expansion along with whatever Old God is causing it.

Illyra · 05/08/09, 4:40 PM

Isn't the Emerald Dream supposed to look like a vision of Azeroth sans sentient species? So in all likelihood there wouldn't be any man-made buildings whatsoever. Fully organic buildings would be intriguing though, think a whole city of trees in extravagant shapes accommodating the dreamers, and the players.

Judikael · 05/08/09, 5:14 PM

Originally Posted by Illyra

Isn't the Emerald Dream supposed to look like a vision of Azeroth sans sentient species? So in all likelihood there wouldn't be any man-made buildings whatsoever. Fully organic buildings would be intriguing though, think a whole city of trees in extravagant shapes accommodating the dreamers, and the players.

That's true, I forgot about that. Then again, in the one quest that takes you to the Emerald Dream, the arch that the druid is standing near is also in the dream as you can see here. I'd imagine if we actually have all of Azeroth in the dream world accessible, Blizzard will change it and buildings will be present for some reason or none at all.

Blayze · 05/08/09, 8:35 PM

Also, as far as ED not having a big baddy to kill at the end, we don't really know for certain what is corrupting the Dream.

I remember reading rumours of Archimonde possibly managing to pour himself into the Dream via the World Tree before he was killed... then there's the whole Hakkar issue...

Daisy · 05/08/09, 9:44 PM

From Wowwiki:

The Emerald Dream is the Azeroth that would not have been split by magic into the three landmasses of today — within it is the original greater landmass of Kalimdor, covered in the hazy emerald green forests of aeons past.

Looking at this, the middle of the Emerald Dream area that we would be in should be over roughly the same place that the Maelstrom is now. So, following the speculation to do with an old god and company using the magic still present there isn't it possible that the same thing could be responsible for the corruption of the dream?

Liebestod · 05/09/09, 12:40 AM

Originally Posted by Blayze

I remember reading rumours of Archimonde possibly managing to pour himself into the Dream via the World Tree before he was killed... then there's the whole Hakkar issue...

An Old God is behind the corruption of the Emerald Dream. That was pretty much confirmed with the Eranikus lore.

Whether the Archimode thing might be true as well... who knows, maybe Archimonde decided to make a deal with an Old God. In any case, unless Blizzard retcons their lore, the Emerald Dream would have you facing off against Old God #3 or #4.

Ashen · 05/09/09, 1:53 AM

Was it ever concluded exactly how many Old Gods there were?

Master's Glaive - Most likely dead Old God
C'thun - Believed to have "fallen" but survived and was regenerating in Ahn'Qiraj
Yogg Saron - For whatever reason, the Titans chose to imprison him in Ulduar. His presence covered most of Northrend and the Nerubians worshipped him.

Maelstrom - Saved the High Elves who were drowning post sundering and turned them into Nagas.

Tirisfal - To the west of Deathknell. Unsure if there's an actual name for this place, but there was a presence that seemed akin to the presence of an Old God.
Emerald Dream - "Unknown" where the presence is coming from, but it has manifested itself as the Nightmare. (Edit: Presumably Old God as evidenced by the Eranikus quest chain)

Could they be in other places? There were theories before of how the placement of the Old Gods and the Titan vaults built some kind of star or pentagram.

What could be really cool is if we start off in the Emerald Dream and the beginning content is getting "attuned" to the place and gaining their trust. Along the way, you gain access to the remnants of Ysera's home that hasn't been enveloped by the Nightmare, and then the end game and last couple leveling zones would be the Nightmare.

I don't think they would merge both of those zones (Maelstrom/South Seas and Emerald Dream) into one expansion, because it really just goes against what they can do with their development team / time.

Alcemon · 05/09/09, 4:08 AM

Originally Posted by Ashen

I don't think they would merge both of those zones (Maelstrom/South Seas and Emerald Dream) into one expansion, because it really just goes against what they can do with their development team / time.

It may look like too much for a single expansion but so did Northrend before they cut out all the "not interesting" parts (like most likely Azjol-Nerub, for example).

I find the insight that the landmass from the Emerald Dream occupies the "same place" in the real world as the Maelstrom quite interesting too.
This may even point to the Old Gods from the Naga and the Emerald Dream being the same one.

Edit:
Please note that "not interesting" is quoted to denote the Developer's point of view, I myself think that would have been VERY interesting but that's not relevant to this discussion.

Leviathon · 05/09/09, 11:22 AM

Originally Posted by Alcemon

It may look like too much for a single expansion but so did Northrend before they cut out all the "not interesting" parts (like most likely Azjol-Nerub, for example).

I find the insight that the landmass from the Emerald Dream occupies the "same place" in the real world as the Maelstrom quite interesting too.
This may even point to the Old Gods from the Naga and the Emerald Dream being the same one.

Azjol-Nerub was likely cut due to time constraints and technical issues and not because of it being 'not interesting. I just doubt we would see the Emerald Dream be merged with the Maelstrom just since it was hinted by Tigole before that it would be it's own expansion when he said the ED in the files was scrapped for 'bigger grander plans'.

Liebestod · 05/10/09, 1:19 PM

Although those quotes are so old that... who knows. iirc, there were originally indicators in vanilla WoW that there would be at least three ED zones, possibly all of them instances (maybe sub-instances, like Strat -> Naxx, BRD -> MC, and UBRS -> BWL.) Obviously those plans were scrapped, but it's interesting when you look back at the old documentation how much they had planned out originally for WoW - Northrend and the South Seas were all part of the original design and probably not meant to be relegated to expansions... at some point, though, they probably decided to spend more time on expanding individual zones rather than having a ton of small ones (and a lot of new zones were added to Kalimdor), and thus a lot of content was cut. But there were still traces of Hellfire Peninsula, the Emerald Dream, Ahn'Qiraj, and even arguably Nazjatar in the vanilla files.

Was it ever concluded exactly how many Old Gods there were?

Nope, and anyone who claims to have the definitive answer is bullshitting you. The reasonable range is "somewhere between three and five", and that's ignoring the debates over what exactly qualifies as an "Old God"...

In any case, I wonder if it'll get somewhat repetitive to have Old Gods ultimately being behind everything that's going wrong with Azeroth. Why will we have a Maelstrom expansion? Because an Old God created the Naga. Why will we have an ED expansion? Because an Old God is mucking around there. And the Infinite Dragonflight? Yeah, that's probably an Old God too (although it's possible that these aren't caused by separate Old Gods.) Don't get me wrong, I think Old Gods are great, I just don't like the feeling of "Old God #2947 created a new evil force for players to stop!' Either Blizzard needs to just say, "there are X Old Gods and this is what they're up to" or they need to find a way to focus things away from them in the upcoming content. With Arthas and the Legion out of the picture, pretty much all new threats on Azeroth will be Old God-related.

Leviathon · 05/10/09, 11:02 PM

Originally Posted by Liebestod

Although those quotes are so old that... who knows. iirc, there were originally indicators in vanilla WoW that there would be at least three ED zones, possibly all of them instances (maybe sub-instances, like Strat -> Naxx, BRD -> MC, and UBRS -> BWL.) Obviously those plans were scrapped, but it's interesting when you look back at the old documentation how much they had planned out originally for WoW - Northrend and the South Seas were all part of the original design and probably not meant to be relegated to expansions... at some point, though, they probably decided to spend more time on expanding individual zones rather than having a ton of small ones (and a lot of new zones were added to Kalimdor), and thus a lot of content was cut. But there were still traces of Hellfire Peninsula, the Emerald Dream, Ahn'Qiraj, and even arguably Nazjatar in the vanilla files.

Nope, and anyone who claims to have the definitive answer is bullshitting you. The reasonable range is "somewhere between three and five", and that's ignoring the debates over what exactly qualifies as an "Old God"...

In any case, I wonder if it'll get somewhat repetitive to have Old Gods ultimately being behind everything that's going wrong with Azeroth. Why will we have a Maelstrom expansion? Because an Old God created the Naga. Why will we have an ED expansion? Because an Old God is mucking around there. And the Infinite Dragonflight? Yeah, that's probably an Old God too (although it's possible that these aren't caused by separate Old Gods.) Don't get me wrong, I think Old Gods are great, I just don't like the feeling of "Old God #2947 created a new evil force for players to stop!' Either Blizzard needs to just say, "there are X Old Gods and this is what they're up to" or they need to find a way to focus things away from them in the upcoming content. With Arthas and the Legion out of the picture, pretty much all new threats on Azeroth will be Old God-related.

I can see them eventually showing that all the 'minor' things happening with the Old Gods are all part of a much larger plan. I am hoping that they continue the Titan lore in future expansions (since the Path of Titans heads to the Maelstrom anyway) so that can be used to continue the storyline in Storm Peaks to further explain the effects they had on Azeroth and why the Titans felt they couldn't kill them.

Ranjurm · 05/11/09, 3:21 AM

Originally Posted by Mr. Crow

I have a lot of trouble believing that there is enough content in the Dream to warrant it's own expansion. Aside from corrupted green dragons and Hakkar recolors, what else is there to fight? How do you handle the power disparity that would logically exist between druids in the real, druids in the Dream, and everyone else?

Well the simplist explainations for druids not being incrediably powerful in the ED expansion is the Nightmare has corrupted their powers and that it's nature fighting itself.

Regarding the visions Arthas saw, I think that the man/deer with antlers is more likely Cenarius or his sons than Malfurion.

Mr. Crow · 05/11/09, 3:24 PM

Since the thread seems to be fracturing a bit with all this discussion of new expansions, would it be appropriate to suggest a new thread for Future Expansion Speculation?

Emeraude · 05/11/09, 3:53 PM

Originally Posted by Mr. Crow

Since the thread seems to be fracturing a bit with all this discussion of new expansions, would it be appropriate to suggest a new thread for Future Expansion Speculation?

I wouldn't want to start a new lore thread until we actually reach the next expansion, or rather until it's announced, though even then an announcement isn't much to go on. This thread didn't start until WotLK's Alpha/Beta and quests and other info about NPCs and voice files started leaking.

Liebestod · 05/11/09, 6:16 PM

Originally Posted by Mr. Crow

Since the thread seems to be fracturing a bit with all this discussion of new expansions, would it be appropriate to suggest a new thread for Future Expansion Speculation?

Eh, this thread has pretty much always been the general lore thread in function (I think it should be renamed as such), and expansion speculation ties in with the lore a lot. A "future expansion speculation" thread would just be another lore thread with more wishlists, which tend not to be popular around here. :P