World of Warcraft - Lore & Storyline discussion [SPOILERS] - Page 219

ayb · 05/12/09, 3:22 PM

Has there been any indication that the old gods actively worked together or were they all separate beings with their own interests?

Enova · 05/12/09, 4:26 PM

I would expect that they worked independently towards a common goal (chaos and the destruction of everything the Titans created), since the fact that they were singled out and outnumbered prior to their imprisonment would seem to indicate that.

Maltaas · 05/13/09, 5:20 AM

In the War of the Ancient trilogy the 3 gods that are imprisoned work together to escape their prison. From that we know they can work together when they have a common goal, but afaik we don't know how well or much they cooperate when free.

DreamMorpheus · 05/13/09, 8:24 AM

Originally Posted by Judikael

If I remember correctly, you wouldn't be cramming neutral cities in, as the Emerald Dream is an alternate (phased) version of our existing world. You could easily just make ED Moonglade the neutral city or something along those lines. I do however agree that the Emerald Dream will most likely be packaged with Maelstrom.

The Undermine!

I always thought that the only route blizz could actually take would be an expansion with Naz-jatar as the main focus, and undermine as the neutral city.

If they could pull off a world of light/dark a la Link to the Past or Prime 2 with an ED expansion... that could be epicly awesome.

Cranberry · 05/13/09, 10:21 AM

Originally Posted by Maltaas

In the War of the Ancient trilogy the 3 gods that are imprisoned work together to escape their prison. From that we know they can work together when they have a common goal, but afaik we don't know how well or much they cooperate when free.

Judging by the fact that the elemental lieutenants are constantly fighting amongst themselves, I can't imagine the Old Gods get along very well. I think it's just an enemy-of-my-enemy thing with their imprisonment.

4LV · 05/13/09, 10:55 AM

While not wanting to go off-topic, I don't think a comparison between Warcraft's Old Gods and Warhammers Chaos Gods is too far fetched, both when it comes to their ability to cooperate and to squabble internally. Including their lieutenants.

Kirth · 05/13/09, 10:55 AM

Originally Posted by Cranberry

Judging by the fact that the elemental lieutenants are constantly fighting amongst themselves, I can't imagine the Old Gods get along very well. I think it's just an enemy-of-my-enemy thing with their imprisonment.

Or more a case of tribes united by a powerful leader fracturing when that unifying force is removed (imprisoned).

Aditu · 05/13/09, 11:53 AM

Originally Posted by 4LV

While not wanting to go off-topic, I don't think a comparison between Warcraft's Old Gods and Warhammers Chaos Gods is too far fetched, both when it comes to their ability to cooperate and to squabble internally. Including their lieutenants.

I think Chaos God's would be more inline with the burning legion and even then the Legion would just be PG versions of Warhammer God's.

Judikael · 05/13/09, 1:26 PM

Originally Posted by DreamMorpheus

The Undermine!

I always thought that the only route blizz could actually take would be an expansion with Naz-jatar as the main focus, and undermine as the neutral city.

If they could pull off a world of light/dark a la Link to the Past or Prime 2 with an ED expansion... that could be epicly awesome.

I agree with the Undermine being the neutral city for the normal Azeroth (if the ED and Maelstrom are combined) but in the Emerald Dream, I'd have to say it'd be Moonglade.

I was thinking about this the other day. My 80 rogue has been Bloodsail since before Burning Crusade. How would he fare in the Maelstrom expansion? Undermine wouldn't be receptive to a Bloodsail Admiral walking the street after slaughtering thousands of their brethren. Would Plunder Isle be added as a neutral city for us? Would we get a free pass? Perhaps the Cartel and the Bloodsail would take up arms together against a common enemy.

Cranberry · 05/13/09, 2:33 PM

Originally Posted by Judikael

I agree with the Undermine being the neutral city for the normal Azeroth (if the ED and Maelstrom are combined) but in the Emerald Dream, I'd have to say it'd be Moonglade.

I was thinking about this the other day. My 80 rogue has been Bloodsail since before Burning Crusade. How would he fare in the Maelstrom expansion? Undermine wouldn't be receptive to a Bloodsail Admiral walking the street after slaughtering thousands of their brethren. Would Plunder Isle be added as a neutral city for us? Would we get a free pass? Perhaps the Cartel and the Bloodsail would take up arms together against a common enemy.

Or, more likely, we get the Steamwheedle Curtain, a new and separate faction. Horde's been slaughtering Kirin Tor in Alterac for years and Dalaran still lets us in. Same with Cenarion Exped/Circle, and Argent Dawn/Crusade.

Ember · 05/13/09, 2:34 PM

Originally Posted by Judikael

I agree with the Undermine being the neutral city for the normal Azeroth (if the ED and Maelstrom are combined) but in the Emerald Dream, I'd have to say it'd be Moonglade.

I was thinking about this the other day. My 80 rogue has been Bloodsail since before Burning Crusade. How would he fare in the Maelstrom expansion? Undermine wouldn't be receptive to a Bloodsail Admiral walking the street after slaughtering thousands of their brethren. Would Plunder Isle be added as a neutral city for us? Would we get a free pass? Perhaps the Cartel and the Bloodsail would take up arms together against a common enemy.

Well, it's conceivable that whatever circumstances prompt the Trade Princes to allow Horde and Allinace access to Undermine in the first place are enough for them to overlook past conflicts. Furthermore, my understanding is that although the Steamwheedle Cartel represents 90% of the goblins encountered in the game thus far, they don't represent the goblin race as a whole. So it may simply be that while they would kill you on sight in any of their towns, they don't have the authority to overrule the powers that be in Undermine.

In game, the answer is significantly simpler - the goblins of Undermine would be part of a new faction, not based around Steamwheedle reputation. New city, new faction, new rep - same as Shattrath and Dalaran.

Chirality · 05/13/09, 2:39 PM

Originally Posted by Aditu

I think Chaos God's would be more inline with the burning legion and even then the Legion would just be PG versions of Warhammer God's.

I have to agree, there. The Old Gods of Warcraft are more like the C'tan ("gods" of the Necrons in 40k), including sharing the name.

One of the few races the Old Ones encountered that were already sentient without their intervention were the Necrontyr. Where the Old Ones were long-lived, with an average lifespan lasting for many Terran millennia, and had access to technology that allowed them to travel from settled world to world instantaneously through a network of Warpgates called the Webway, the Necrontyr were short-lived, and were bound to but one world. The Necrontyr grew increasingly jealous of the Old Ones, and eventually set about going to war with them to wipe them out and claim their technology. The Old Ones easily out-maneuvered these early, clumsy Necrontyr strikes by making use of their Webway and the Necrontyr were soon defeated.

However, the Necrontyr then discovered that a C'tan, a member of a race of enigmatic energy beings who had come into existence not long after the act of Creation itself, was living within their home star, feeding on the sun's radiant power. In a short time, the Necrontyr managed to create a technology based on "living metal" or Necrodermis, that allowed the C'tan to manifest itself physically by enclosing itself within a construct made from Necrodermis. The Necrontyr soon began to view their C'tan and its fellows as gods. With the help of the C'tan, the Necrontyr were able to turn the tide of their war against the Old Ones, largely by transferring their own consciousness into robotic bodies forged of Necrodermis like their C'tan "Star Gods." Unfortunately, the process of conversion dampened the Necrontyr's emotions and intellects, turning them into little more than mindless, eternally anguished slaves for the C'tan, who discovered that feeding on the life energies of other intelligent beings was far more "tasty" than the bland energy given off by stars. After their transformation, the Necrontyr became known as the Necrons and began cleansing the worlds held by the Old Ones and their allied species, feeding whole planetary populations to the foul appetites of their C'tan masters.

In the conflict that followed, called the War In Heaven by the Eldar's lorekeepers, the Old Ones created and modified many new races to help them combat the Necrontyr. The C'tan had no ability to comprehend or manipulate the Immaterium, and thus the Old Ones came to the conclusion that they would create a series of races attuned to the Immaterium, in order to use the vast repository of energy present there against the C'tan. Of these races, a few survive today, such as the Eldar, Jokaero, Hrud, the Krork (who, it is speculated, eventually devolved or mutated into the Orks and other Greenskins) and to a certain extent Humans.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Ones_(Warhammer_40,000)

Note that the Old Ones are somewhere between Titans and Naaru, in 40k. Indeed, it's not really clear what the relationship between the Naaru and the Titans *is* in Warcraft.

Keldin · 05/13/09, 2:42 PM

There's a slight problem with the elemental lieutenants. The way I see it, there are gigantic holes in the story of how the elementals are actually connected to the old gods. Or there's close to no story at all - the most I can find is that the elementals serve the old gods and that's it.

Edit - Seems I missed something. Wowwiki seems to suggest that the elemental lieutenants were under the old gods control before the Titans came. Still I smell either a retcon or an unfinished story.

Elemental Lord - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft - Right in the first section.

zirky · 05/13/09, 3:56 PM

Originally Posted by Keldin

Edit - Seems I missed something. Wowwiki seems to suggest that the elemental lieutenants were under the old gods control before the Titans came. Still I smell either a retcon or an unfinished story.

Elemental Lord - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft - Right in the first section.

I'd wager its somewhere between those two extremes. There's still a fair amount we don't know about the Old Gods. All we currently know is that

a) they're old
b) they're fairly powerful
c) they're jerks

We don't fully understand what, if any, motivation (other than survival) drives them, what their goals are, or why they seem to play out such elaborate schemes with mortals.

4LV · 05/13/09, 4:58 PM

Originally Posted by Chirality

I have to agree, there. The Old Gods of Warcraft are more like the C'tan ("gods" of the Necrons in 40k), including sharing the name.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Ones_(Warhammer_40,000)

Note that the Old Ones are somewhere between Titans and Naaru, in 40k. Indeed, it's not really clear what the relationship between the Naaru and the Titans *is* in Warcraft.

Very true. I think I must explain myself. I was merely replying to the post about the Old Gods working together or squabbling against each other made by Cranberry (#3275). In the WH/WH40K universe the Chaos Gods are enemies of each other up to a certain point. They vie for power amongst themselves, and take delight in their lieutenants smashing each others to bits to test their mettle, but will ally behind any cause that promises a big enough source of chaos or destruction.