Strongest != Dangerous. Strongest != Powerful.

Strength is a physical attribute, Power and Danger incorporate much more. For example, no one would say Jaina is physically strong, but she's sure as hell Magically powerful and dangerous. She therefore has real power and soft power through influence.

In light of that however (no pun intended, but hey...), who knows how the new Sunwalker Taurens will be. I mean, Paladin's of the Alliance were revered warriors, Tauren Sunwalkers lore-wise might be a force to be reckoned with.

That's extreme, nothing is dangerous based on its characteristics alone. You always have to consider the use it's given. Jaina is in no way dangerous, nor I believe would any of her allies take precautions should she be mind-controlled.

I may have used that argument in some of my examples. Gnomes, for example, aren't exactly dangerous for their urge to invent and their recklessness. It's their excentricity and lack of regard for well-being (theirs and others') and their lack of sense of "too much ahead of time" that makes them something to fear. They employed chemical weapons to cleanse their home. True, a rogue tinker did it, but individuals gone a-wire are much more common than mind-controls (even in WoW).

Tauren, in their whole, aren't exactly dangerous. They're very strong, yes, but they're prone to a certain ritual form of combat, not very advanced strategies, frontal assaults, etc. Tauren, unless Garrosh mess with their heads (leadership, that is), are the least likely to support a war on the Alliance on the Horde side - unless the Alliance goes DakkaDakka on them, as the attack on camp Mojache seems to indicate.

In terms of sharing Thrall's vision of a peaceful Horde, no other race gets near the Tauren, in proportion (I'm assuming there are many more Orcs).

An object's traits can definitely lend to it being dangerous no matter how it's being used. The danger is in the potential it holds and the fear of that potential. That alone is enough to spark conflict depending on the situation.

Example: Let's assume that the Demon Soul was never once used for an evil deed and was under tight lock-down by, say, Elune (a powerful, good aligned being that would never use it to harm, her reasons don't matter for the example). The object still has the potential to obliterate entire dragon flights. It would be dangerous no matter where it was and who was guarding it. That's why it would need guards, after all.



I don't know if I agree with Tauren being so dangerous (not that they aren't, as I just got done saying), but when push comes to shove, they're a force that is not unwilling to resort to the option of "crush" rather than shove.

They are, in fact, a race that can get very violent and bloodthirsty when the occasion calls for it. They're just adept at controlling their own rage. This is likely one of the reasons Thrall respects them so much and promotes such a close friendship between Orc and Tauren. He wants Tauren to rub off on Orc, not the other way around.

Given the Forsaken vs Gilneas conflict, it'd probably be one of the encouraging/deciding factors behind his (Presumably it's his) decision to allow Gilneas to rejoin the Alliance.

As for the Guardian!Thrall in-game tie-in, that might be part of the pre-Cataclysm event that's been mentioned. A little "Oh noes! Thrall vanished!", perhaps.

Thrall will still be around before Cataclysm hits, after all it's him that welcomes the Golbins into to the horde. Now there more than likely be a pre-expact event/questline, but it wont be of Thrall disappearing.

We don't know when in the timeline though that he brings the goblins into the Horde. He may only be the leader during that part of the storyline but for everyone else Garrosh will have control of the Horde when Cataclysm is released.

No you were trying to make the point that Saurfang was there to die, and that otherwise they'd have sent Garrosh, him being the leader. I was saying that the reason Saurfang is there is for the encounter with his son, and that your point of him not knowing his son is there is irrelevant when its to forward the plot. They will just make an excuse like "Garrosh was injured/Thrall ordered Saurfang to lead/Garrosh was fight elsewhere/Garrosh was afraid of flying etc...".

@Tirin: I'm sorry, obviously theres some disconnect here, but when did Garrosh cross over to be a) murdering his own people, b) murdering the greatest Orcish warrior alive, c) murdering anyone?

I can't believe I've actually come to defending him in the last few pages given my dislike but seriously some people are making massive illogical leaps from hates humans/blood thirsty to murdering/traitorous/evil/dragon possessed. He's a bit of a hot head that hates the humans for some reason, he isn't some evil mastermind. He might be frustrated by talks of logistics and "the old days" (who isn't a bit when your grandad tells you how much harder life was back in the old days) but I'm sure he has a lot of respect for the Saurfang family given Broxigar and Varok are both massive Orc legends.

Ultimately I think his story will be one of growth. I don't think his hatred of the Alliance will die down, but I do think he will become smarter about it as he picks up knowledge from Saurfang. That is obviously what Thrall is planning by having Saurfang hang around him, he sees the potential in him and realises that he needs the influence of some more restrained and tactical

Please note I'm not saying its impossible he die in Icecrown, I think if you go back many pages I was one of the first to say its a good possibility. I just found the reasons people were giving for him acting on his "threat" to be borderline absurd. He isn't going to get upset if Garrosh takes a more aggressive stance against the Alliance. He is a warrior that, if he is like his brother, has been in all 3 wars. He is smart, and knows we are at war, and he also knows Wyrnn will not back down from his blind hatred of orcs. If Hellscream makes smart moves, tactical assaults on alliance bases, moving to control resources etc... then I'm sure Saurfang will back that up 100%. Even if he makes less than advised moves against alliance militarry assests, I still think he will support him, if not for a few choice words of warning in his ear. It is if he starts moving on innocents, villages with no just civillians and no tactical purpose, that sort of thing. Taking Astranaar for example, was a good strategic move. It gives greater control of Ashenvale, provides a good buffer of defense for their lumber operation (along with the now Goblin Azshara territory), and allows any incursion from Felwood (demon or otherwise) to be attacked on two fronts.

I think some people are making out that Saurfang is stood, axe poised over Hellscream's neck. "What is this Garrosh? You ordered pork for the troops instead of strider? YOU KNOW HOW I FEEL ABOUT PORK, FEEL MY BLADE!".

If a civil war started, the Alliance would crush both factions and that is game over.

I don't see why Garrosh can't grow into a good leader rather than becoming a figure of hatred that must be dethroned eventually. The alliance have a racist as their leader and seem to get on quite well.

I was about to mention the same, it's kinda confirmed Thrall is captured by Alliance forces and then rescued by Horde soldiers plus the shipwrecked Bilgewater Cartel, probably as the "end quest" of the Goblin starting area - if you ignore that there would be more time between level 15 and level 80, I could see a heavily phased quest where Thrall returns to Orgrimmar, where Garrosh has taken command, but refuses to let go, so a BftUC-style battle begins between Thrall-loyals and Garrosh-loyals. Alliance raids would always see Thrall, though.

And we have 'evil' ones.


Also, will you guys stop saying Thrall will become the new Guardian? It's clear this will be Med'an, though he might seem "overpowered" at the moment (which they can fix by weakening him, or making him realize how dangerous his powers can be) but he has the ability to use various sources of magic, nature, holy and arcane, while Thrall is "only" a shaman.

I said it made perfect sense for him to die, not that he HAD to die in Icecrown. Just that all pieces were set in a way that easily leads one to that conclusion. Not that there are no alternatives to that, I've stated them. They won't need to make up a reason like "Garrosh stays cause Thrall says so" or any other random excuse for Saurfang to go to Icecrown. Do you really think Saurfang wouldn't shove Garrosh aside and hop in the airship to go fight the son of a bitch who killed his son? That's a perfect reason and why I say everything seems to fit.

Garrosh is, blame Blizzard or not, an uni-dimensional character. I'd understand him turning fanatical if he hadn't experienced what the Orcs' blind rage did to them. But he did. First hand. And he knows his father happily threw himself headfirst into the demon blood trip.

So, of course there's room for him to improve, there's always the possibility for any tyrant to change.

And yes, I believe he'd kill a Horde member he found to be too opposing to him.

I'm guessing he respects Saurfang, but as a figure of authority. He knows Saurfang is superior to him, at least in terms of importance. And still he is rude and insolent to the old guy.

Has there ever been any reason given or even hinted at as to what suddenly caused Garrosh to start hating humans/Alliance?

Being stuck out in Nagrand for most of his life can't exactly have given him the greatest exposure to humans, and the death of his father was at the hands of the Legion, so that can't be used as an excuse. While I don't want Blizzard to have gone down the "Black Dragonflight mind control" route again, his hatred must have come from somewhere, and without some sort of reason, no matter how small, it can't be dismissed.

Three reasons for Garrosh's hatred of humans:

1. The orcs have always disliked them, to put it mildly, and Garrosh's goal for himself is to embody every aspect of the orcs that he feels is a part of their (past) glory.

2. His father never refrained from attacking humans even when such an action could jeopardize the Horde's greater goal - Warcraft 3 Orcs campaign.

3. Like his father, once again, he ferventely hates adversaries (Grommash went at the night elves like they killed his doggy). No questions asked. His love for glorious battle translates into epic hatred.

Garrosh, the way I see it, hates the Alliance more than he does humans themselves. Most of his lines in Wotlk and especially in the Crusader's Coliseum refer to the Alliance. Problem his, every time he deals with the Alliance, he deals with a human, Wrynn, who is as thick-headed (as in stubborn, not stupid) as he his - not as impetuous, though. So, he probably sees Varian as his nemesis (which he will be, come Cataclysm) and the Alliance as his nemesis' extension.

Two things:

First: To those who don't believe Saurfang will/would act should Garrosh cross certain boundaries, let me remind you he already takes steps in that direction. You are forbidden to refer Saur's help in Borean Tundra against that necromancer, and in Dragonblight...you get a letter from Saurfang himself urging you to stick with his view of things. Interestingly, aside from not completing certain quests like the "No Mercy" one in Icecrown, the game offers you no real choice in sharing Saurfang's view. So, apparenty, you do share his view. I wonder if this will translate into Garrosh being viewed almost as a villain (not literally) in Cataclysm, with certain "subsersive" quests coming up.

Second thing: Can't remember if it was in this forum or not, but I've read people who say just about anyone can beat Garrosh. Remember, characters tend to take after their parents or even surpass them in terms of abilities. And Garrosh just needs to be close to his old man to be, basically, a meat-processing machine. He more than held his own agains Varian in Dalaran, has likely received training from Thrall and Saurfang, seems to be bigger than even Thrall and, well...no real need to say more. It's more than reasonable to assume Blizzard will want Garrosh to, at the very least, compensate for his lack of strategic thought by being a battlefield monster, that way inspiring and influencing his troops. Yes, Thrall held back against him in the arena, but mostly in the use of his powers, I assume, not so much in melee, as that's where the advantage is. And if Garrosh is even as good as Thrall in close combat, then he's nothing to underestimate. One can imagine he learned something from Saurfang as well. /shudders

Could this "B" character who replaces Varimathras be Magistrate Barthilas?
Some outré names were mentioned a few pages back but surely a career bureaucrat would be a sound recruit to Sylvanas' staff after some recent mishaps in the administration.
In lvl60 Stratholme he is a wight, but upon defeat leaves behind a human corpse.
He can also be glimpsed in CoT Stratholme if you go to the town hall before starting the event.

Is that a fair statement? As Horde, yes, we have a single leader in our Warchief Thrall. Everyone in the Horde ultimately answers to him, and he can give an order to, say, Sylvanas, and expect it to be carried out. He doesn't ask, he commands. As I understand it, though, that's not how the Alliance works. Wrynn is the leader of the humans, yes. He also represents the Alliance in Northrend, but is that as the actual leader of the Alliance, or as basically the acting commander of the troops in the field? Do the Dwarves and Night Elves consider Wrynn to be their actual leader? I've always been under the impression that the Alliance was just that - an alliance of the different races who may be fighting on the same side, but ultimately answer to their own leaders, and Wrynn has just stepped up to be the acting war-time commander. It's a subtle difference, but important.

1. It probably only applies to NPCs, unless, as someone said above, it does affect to players in a "first stage" and then we have to retake the city, as Garrosh's ascension to Warchief may have been somewhat of a coup d'etat, capitalizing on Thrall's supposed disappearance. First answer would really be "NPC's only", but I wouldn't be admired (and it would seem more coherent) if Garrosh's throne room was closed to said "weak" races. Or even to anyone out of his inner circle.

2. Goblins first: the ones that helped build Orgrimmar (which, per se, isn't exactly a show of strengh, rather ingenuity, aside from coming at a hefty cost) probably aren't those we'll be playing with, as far as we know. My guess is they were of another cartel.
Trolls being out of Garrosh's equation is probably the hardest part to understand in this matter. Jungle trolls are not exactly weak. I'll risk saying they'd win a strength contest against any other race but Tauren, Draenei, Orcs and Dwarves. They're highly cunning, athletic, have their very own magic and are, together with blood elves, probably the best hunters and scouts of the Horde. Plus, ruthlessness-wise, they may even surpass orcs, as their lust for violence is more "rational". In a word, vicious. And this is just the "formal" part of it. There's the social cost of shunning what is perhaps the most horde-devoted race, aside from orcs. For the most part, they'd have the least second thoughts to joining Garrosh's brutal way of doing things, and I'm counting orcs here. Unleashed, trolls are just about the most savage thing you'll see on a battlefield.
Another show of utter dumbness by Garrosh. I like to analyse his actions in depth, but this one - there are others - is just borderline imbecile.

@Bierzkrieg: You completely missed the point. The Demon Soul was only an example because it's something that we're familiar with as far as how powerful it is in lore. How about these example:

Example 1: A wizard makes an artifact and locks it in his tower, guarded by the strongest familiars he could summon plus ten. The nearby town knows him well and respects him. He tells them about his awesome artifact, saying it is extremely powerful and can bring them happiness so long as a good soul uses it. Various unsavory types learn of the artifact and plan to steal it. They do so, and using the power of the artifact, kill the wizard and subjugate the town to their rule and various other villainous things.The artifact was never meant to be used for evil. The wizard created it with peace in mind and intended for it to be used for the good of the town. Was it dangerous?

Example 2: Two groups of allied towns on the frontier exist. Both groups of allies are equal in numbers, influence, and technology but do not get along. Nothing has happened yet, but there's a lot of tension between them and many expect the worst very soon. A local tribe of nomads also live in the area. They is also a tribe of nomads that lives in the area. Their power is as little as 1/4th of either group of allies, but they're crafty and good hunters. They generally trade game with the two groups of allies, enjoying a neutral relationship with both for the time being, but are not entirely friendly with either. There are rumors in one town that the nomads are currently entertaining a diplomat from the opposing side. Are the nomads a danger?

Danger is not based on the intention or nature of an object or people. Some things have a greater potential because of their nature or intention, but that does not mean that another thing with no intention for harm cannot be dangerous. Danger relies heavily on the potential of a thing.

@Vaccine: I agree, and this is what I was trying to get at earlier about Saurfang dying being a bad idea. Any growth of Garrosh as a character hinges on him having a good mentor. We have two characters currently who could fill the role (well, three if you count Cairne, but since when has he done anything in WoW?), Thrall and Saurfang. If Thrall is going to be missing/hanging out with Goblins, then it's going to be Saurfang. If not either, they'll have to create a new character down the line or mold some other existing character into a mentor, which is a pretty big waste of characters that already exists and have established relationships with Garrosh.

@Vgrnt: A former magistrate aiding Sylvanas? That just makes too much sense.

Kaijin: I accept there are some objects, groups or individuals who may be perceived as dangerous for their potential to cause unwanted consequences, in certain contexts. But still think it's a very raw way to look at things, if it gets us to the point of seeing Jaina or Thrall as dangerous. Garrosh and Varian do see them that way, though, so you do have a point. I suppose my argument on gnome technology actually makes you right. Their "ahead of its time" inventions aren't exactly dangerous per se, but their use is devastating, at times. It's that potential to invent some doomsday device that makes gnomes (and goblins dangerous). Touché there.

On Saurfang teaching Garrosh: it's not like Hellscream is all alone but for Saur. He has numerous overlords, captains and lieutenants. Aggmar, the airship douche, etc. Plus, for all his "ME KILL" philosophy, like any rational being (no jokes here), he'll learn with time. So, what's so unbelievable or story-shattering about Garrosh being left with his inner circle of narrow-minded extremists? He'll still learn and develop as a character from there. Of course, he'll become more and more certain of the rightousness of his view. So what? Doesn't mean he can't play a good part on a good story. As the eviction of races from Orgrimmar shows, Garrosh can always rise to new heights in his racism and iron grasp on the Horde aside from the "HACK THEIR LIMBS" everyone expects at every time. He'll grow more refined and, eventually, he'll become complex enough in his single-mindedness that we may be able to see what's going on inside his head.

People (and non-godly /elemental and characters) are never 100% single-minded. There are doubts or shadows of it, fears, insecurities, needs, etc. But people (and non godlyougethepoint characters) may appear to be uni-dimensional in certain contexts. Right now, Garrosh does. Because he's leading a war and we see him only at certain occasions. Once he's in control, which is the best spot to truly see one's personality and nature, we'll see how Blizzard opens the big guy to us.

Oh, and:

Perhaps it is best to wait a bit and see what truly happens. Speculation and intriguing discussion on the possibilities that are yet to come are always interesting, but the deeper or bigger meanings will be brought to light when the timing is just right. We still have a bit to go on what is brewing in Icecrown Citadel and Arthas before we get more into what will be happening next with Cataclysm.

Why does Bliz WANT us to hate Garrosh!? | General | WoW Blue Tracker | World of Raids

I don't want to extrapolate too much. Is this a simple "First things first, Icecrown has priority", or rather a "For Garrosh's actions on Cataclysm to be understood, we must first go through Icecrown"? We know he won't probably be in Icecrown, could something happen there that changes him?

Something tells me that it is very possible that events in Icecrown Citadel will make Thrall question his ability to continue leading his people. For example if he loses both Jaina and Saurfang in the Citadel then he may feel that he is just not capable of leading his people and at the same time changing Garrosh.

It also seems a lot of the sites forgot to mention that Gnomeregan is now confirmed to be re-taken which makes it even more likely that the trolls have re-taken their island.

It also seems like Tol Barad will be instanced since they feel that was a mistake they made with Wintergrasp.

It doesn't have to be instanced to fix the mistakes they thought they made with wintergrasp. Specifically, their problem with wintergrasp is that it confined too many people into a narrow space (the keep). In one of the blizzcon panels on PvP, they said that Tol Barad would make use of many strategic capture points, rather than the single one that they used for wintergrasp. The result, they hoped, would be to spread out players more effectively. The other point to make for it being non-instanced, is that they mentioned that the island resided geographically between Gilneas and the Wetlands, but that they might have to move it off shore because there may not be enough space to fit it into the gulf. It could still be instanced, with the daily quests being off shore, but the fact that they're paying attention to space hints that they probably won't instance the thing.

@Bierzkrieg: REAL people aren't single minded, yes, you're absolutely right. We are, however, talking about a fictional character, and so far, this particular character has received very little development, effectively making him single-minded. All of the things potentially going on in Garrosh's head mean very little if he neither acts on them, or we never get to find out about them.

Additionally, if he does stay with his own commanders, he has very little room to grow as a literary character. He would simply stagnate as the meat head we know, not growing, simply sitting with the people who obey him because they like the way he does things. Of all the Garrosh supporters in Northrend, I really don't think any qualify as mentors for Garrosh. At most they're facets of his current mind-set. Saurfang is the ONLY person so far who has stood up to Garrosh, and notably Garrosh does not speak back to him or show any resentment.

It's true that Warchief Garrosh could send Saurfang away to some other post if he does not die in Icecrown, and it's entirely likely that a real person with Garrosh's position and disposition might do something like that. However, in addition to taking into account what a person would do in these situations, you also have to take into account what is best for character development and the story.

Saurfang dies in IC or gets sent away:
Garrosh stagnates as a character. He continues to be a brutal meat head and the player-base continues to hate him. Maybe Blizzard creates a new character to try to serve as a mentor and go from there to make things more interesting. If Saurfang is merely sent away, you get a quest hub where he is that still make minimal impact on both characters' development and/or story.


Saurfang does not die, and stays by Garrosh to keep him in line and mentor him:
Garrosh matures as a commander and leader because of Saurfang's experience. he finally becomes a multifaceted character and finally becomes interesting, and hopefully, at the very least, Horde players develop a grudging respect for him. Maybe Saurfang grows to view Garrosh as a second son in all this and ends up sacrificing himself for Garrosh, in turn granting Garrosh some sort of revelation that allows his character to grow even more (ala Doomhammer & Thrall). This is the type of role a mentor character fills.


As far as Nethaera's post goes, I believe she's saying both. Icecrown is a pivotal point in lore. It's the climax and conclusion of WotLK. It will have a profound effect on almost all major lore characters seen in WotLK so far. Garrosh won't be an exception because all of the characters around him will be impacted, and he himself is not exempt from showing up seeing as he's the commander of all Horde forces in Northrend. All we know is that Saurfang is in charge of the air assault. Garrosh can easily show up any time after, during, or before.



PS: It's Kaejin, please. I've had more than enough people try to call me "Kaijin" in the past. =p

GC mentions in the article that they are seriously discussing instancing it right now.

Wild speculation:

Thrall and Jaina, two star-crossed lovers, spy each other over the fury of Icecrown battle and stage a sly retreat for a Booty Bay goblin themed wedding before setting sail for a south seas honeymoon. Arthas is defeated, Garrosh gets pissed with Thrall, takes over Orgrimmar and the goblins running Club Med - South Sea Heaven decide they could make far more from Thrall's ransom than from his bar tab of orc-sized pina coladas.

Climate change induced Cataclysm makes tropical holidays less desirable than they once were and the Club Med gobbos free Thrall in order to set up the Kalimdor branch of Tsunami Tours Incorporated with the big guy as their consultant-in-resident.

Too much?

You know, for some wild speculations, not only do they make a lot more sense then all the lame Garrosh/Varian duels, but they also have a lot more style.