I was thinking something like that, Talgog, but wasn't quite sure how to word it. I don't think she'll just have a bag thrown over her head and be dragged off, but having him make her 'evil' again for a bit would be a neat twist.

The question I have though, is how this will work. Since it implies in the description that the Alliance will waltz through with Jaina, and the Horde foxtrot with Sylvanas ... it makes it sound like we won't have both in our party. So will the final confrontation be (for Alliance) walking in and seeing Sylvanas be taken over / controlled, and Jaina dies, and (for Horde) walk in and see Jaina die and Sylvanas taken over?

Kinda mirrored events but different perspectives? That could be a very cool story element if they do it right.

Interesting twist would be if the Lich King took over Sylvanas and had her kill Jaina... talk about igniting a War ...

Jaina's death alone, by anyone's hands, would do more for moving Thrall out of power than any other possible event. Beyond being his secret crush, she's the embodiment of the moderated diplomacy he's sought with the Alliance. As the only notable vocal moderate, her loss would essentially close the door.

Throw on top of that the loss of Saurfang and/or Sylvanas having a hand in Jaina's death, and you have a perfect storm of events. With his dreams of peace with the Alliance shattered, his love lost, Saurfang slain and the presence of inescapable feelings of bitterness toward Sylvanas for being unable to stop herself, Thrall would be utterly demoralized.

With the final stroke of the Cataclysm, there's effectively every reason for him to step down and few to stay. Why pursue his failed dreams and policies when the world desperately needs Thrall the Shaman/Guardian and not Thrall the Warchief? It would be begrudgingly, but it makes sense in this context for him to step down and move on.

I don't see a faction leader dying in a five man, especially Jaina and especially at the hands of Sylvannas. For starters, Varian's character would be obligated to go apeshit and war between the horde and alliance would occur immediately. Since there's still an Icecrown raid to be had, I don't see that happening. However, I can see Jaina getting captured and that would setup the impetus for an immediate invasion of Icecrown, one that Thrall himself would lead. I wouldn't even be surprised if both women are captured, but for sure I'd bank on Jaina being taken. That would setup the entire Icecrown raid as a more "run against time" event, similar to sunwell though I'd bank that once we got to the end, Jaina actually ends up dying. Kodus points if its because a choice Thrall has to make, save her or kill Arthas.

I also don't see both alliance and Horde versions being told separately and isolated with each other. I think they'll be tied together just as the wrathgate event had Alliance and Horde versions telling different aspects and showing different parts of the story.

The more I think about it, the more I see a Jaina sacrifice of some sorts in ending the reign of the Lich King, if only for the fact that it would be the only way to redeem Arthas as a badass and not a total pinata.

Technically the Ice Crown raid is happening simultaneously (or close to it) to the 5-man dungeon I think. Also, I am pretty sure Blizzard has indicated that we will have some sort of skirmish with the opposing faction while racing towards Arthas. Not to mention that we pretty much are already at war with each other back on the mainlands where the cataclysm is already occurring.

More on Garrosh from Kisirani:

This is good, right? Character development (which Garrosh has seen very little of) is always good, and this seems to imply his will be for the better.

"Come Cataclysm" seems to support that either in Icecrown or whatever pre-expansion events that Blizzard has planned, Garrosh will undergo some sort of revelation or something that will lead to him to be a more likable meathead rather than an outright hated meathead.

Ah ok, see I didn't think they were occurring simultaneously based on the fact that we catch Arthas in the five man before he scurries off to his throne. As for the skirmishes, I just see Varian reacting to the news of "Sylvannas killed Jaina" with a full siege of Undercity with an intent to burn it completely to the ground and sewing salt in the soil so nothing can ever grow in that area again, not by slinging rocks at Orgrim's Hammer.

It seems pretty likely that the 5 man happens and then the raid happens considering the Lich King isn't omnipotent. I still think Jaina will be out of the picture come Cataclysm either dead or alive (maybe solely due to the new Council) since it seems a lot of the Alliance forces in Kalimdor are staged out of Theramore.

The EU PTR forum was cleared earlier and the US PTR forum was brought up so it looks pretty likely we will get our answers soon.

My initial response to this would be, what's preventing the lich king from doing the same to undead players, other than from a gameplay perspective. In other words, since he played such an instrumental role in Sylvannas's resurection into undeath would he be able to redominate her in such close proximity and not us or perhaps he's not through "testing us".

Story wise, I really like how this would twist would play out. We've discussed before that one of the weapons the lich king uses against us has been pychological warfare, with the turning of both Saurfang Jr. and Bolvar being a prime example. I doubt the lich king would simply stop at turning Sylvannas and using her to kill Jaina, but would then proceed to resurect Jaina and disappear with his new acquisitions in tow. At which point we could expect to see them paired with the aforementioned heros, Bolvar and Saurfang the younger, in a council style fight on the raid side of ICC.

I also don't have a problem with Jaina getting the axe as it pretains to the horde alliance relations. As it's been mentioned before, the horde and alliance are essentially at open war even before this occurs, and Varian hardly needs another reason to want to make war on the horde. This seems to be the direction that blizzard's been moving in since at least Wrathgate, and Jaina's death would merely seal the deal.

Issue with that is that we know Sylvanas survives the Citadel to go to war with Gilneas so it would be a bit weird to have her submit and live and not anyone else.

But there's a difference between having personal reasons and agenda's and having outright justification. While Varian is openly aggressive to the horde now, he still has other world factions to contend with that also deal with the Horde who wouldn't be supportive, and in fact would be opposed, to outright open war. Given what you've said about Varian and what we all know about his character, he'd seize upon an even MC'd sylvannas killing Jaina and probably move on the horde immediately. In his mind, there would be no cooperation with the Horde, ever, under any pretext.

I'm not personally ruling it out I just think its as likely, at least in the five man. At the end of the Icecrown raid, however...

I guess it depends on how it turns out in the end. People have speculated, key word I suppose, that saurfang dies in ICC, possibly in order to save his son. Just because they're a raid boss doesn't mean that we kill them, keepers being a good example. While it may be lame to say we just beat them down and break them from the lich kings grasp it's not entirely implausible.

Here's something i've been thinking though. If the 5 mans progress the way it sounds like, where it'll be 5 Man A, B, C, then events of the 10/25 man, almost in a straight shot (storywise, not necessarily real-world wise), ..

We have the main forces of the Alliance / Horde smashing into the gates, and a smaller group goes in another entrance. We complete the 5 mans and their stories, and then around then (with many major generals / forces in his control down), Arthas and Icecrown Citadel Prime are vulnerable to attack. So the main force goes in, and simply is unaware of Jaina's fate.

I mean, I can totally see going out to kill Arthas, and seeing Sylvanas standing in front of a dead Jaina, and Arthas resurrects her ... bam, battle starts.

Varian may go raging in battle, but depending on how it goes, it very well could make perfect sense to transition from that battle to the Cataclysm, by having Varian take his aggression out on Arthas, or even have a risen Jaina 'break free' and tell him 'No worries, i'm cool, I got this', and then slap around Arthas in a cinematic or something. Jaina dying/rising doesn't have to be the end of it, and it most definitely does not have to happen with months of time between that event and the assult on Icecrown Citadel Prime.

Besides, the mention of the finale of Diablo 1 is an interesting thing to discuss ... perhaps one with a strong mental presence, and incredible magical fortitude, could take Frostmourne and contain it, even destroy it? (Perhaps at the cost of her own life ... even if it is an undead life at this point in the story.)

Edit: delete please. Posing a possible scenario turned more into a story than I intended.

Is it really necessary to turn this thread into fanfic? Speculating on what something means (such as the Highbourne PTR quest) is one thing, but all-out creative writing seems a bit too far.

I actually expect Tirion to meet his end with Icecrown Citadel as well. All personal scores will be settled once Arthas is gone, so it seems somewhat natural. This would also allow for Darion to reclaim Ashbringer, as his father foretold he would wield it again some day.

As far as Arthas reasserting control over Forsaken, I'm not convinced he can do that at this point. Prince Keleseth Visited Vengeance Landing and attempted to convince High Executor Anselm back into the Scourge. I think if the Lich King had wanted him, he would have taken him, rather than send an envoy to try and tempt him. While it's true that maybe Arthas didn't want him enough to outright take him, we know it's not outside of the Lich King's power in most cases to assert control over undead over a large area and long distances away. He could easily have done that to any of the Forsaken and caused lots of chaos in the process over the course of WotLK if he had the power to do so.

Blizzard has been weirdly inconsistent with how they represent the connection between Arthas and the Scourge. If anything, I wouldn't find it implausible that the Lich King could dominate an undead within arm's reach, though. That still does raise the question of "why didn't he just show up at several of the Forsaken hubs and take over?", which brings us back to wondering how much of us winning is part of his plan and how much isn't?

Counterpoint: Blizzard thought people would like Wrynn.

That's the whole thing with the Forsaken, they have broken free of the Lich Kings grasp, and are probably the only people Arthas truly fears. If you watch the Wrathgate cinematic and listen to Arthas' voice when Putress starts bombing the field he sounds genuinely afraid/shocked, and rightly so as they are the only mortal creatures he can't bend to his will.

A lot of it is probably since he knows Sylvanas is powerful enough to break Scourge from his control since that's how she got her original forces.

I think people who read the comic did. But then its back to the point of putting all your character development of him into a format hardly anyone reads.

Also interesting to note is that the Knights of the Ebon Blade are still free. Arthas had originally thrown them away at Light's Hope, but I think after all the damage they've done in Northrend they've at least proven themselves as more competent than Arthas' current cadre of Death Knights, the Host of Suffering.

What's more is that they show little fear of Arthas, meaning they either know he can't bring them back under his will or suspect that he can't, and these are people who know Arthas quite well.

The current assault on the Shadow Vault means Arthas probably wants it back, and if he could bring any of the Ebon Blade back to his side he could probably have already reclaimed it.

Perhaps once the Lich King's domination over an undead being is broken, it can't be forcefully restored.

I'd throw Ebon Blade in there as well. Some obvious similarities, of course, in that both are undead, both broke free, and both are pissed, though for slightly different reasons and in slightly different ways. (Martial order breaking free essentially intact vs entire population raised from the dead and now loose under their queen.) ALL the Ebon Blade-specific quest text in Icecrown (referring to text you only get if you're playing a DK, not quests from the faction) basically revolves around "...everyone hates us, this sucks, and we are going to kill the FUCK out of Arthas, won't revenge be sweet." as opposed to the less-specific vengeance one would associate with the Forsaken.


Edit: Ninjaed. But to expand on the ninja, not only does the EB generally show no fear, they've--like you said--gone wrecking through Icecrown and cleaning house on the loyal DKs, necromancers, etc. Any return to the Scourge is clearly presented as an optional move, as with Orbaz Bloodbane, who also gets his clock cleaned.