World of Warcraft - Lore & Storyline discussion [SPOILERS] - Page 227

Liebestod · 05/26/09, 5:02 PM

Actually, mulling it over some, I'm thinking it'd probably be a productive idea to start a blog or something solely dedicated to archiving Blizzard's statements about ingame lore and how they've evolved over time. The proximate cause for this is the discussion in the 3.2 thread over whether an A-N raid was ever really planned for WotLK - I believe it was, but it's hard to find anything close to a primary source corroborating this. It really shouldn't be that difficult - all someone had to do was put up a direct quote from Metzen or Kalgan or whatever, but apparently it's really hard to find that kind of attribution. So why not have a blog meant to gather them all in one place? There isn't much primary lore news at the moment, but there's still 3.2 stuff trickling out and the smart money's on a new expansion being announced at Blizzcon, which would obviously produce a torrent of news.

It'd just be an archive of official information at first, but it could perhaps expand outwards into analysis from there. Would any of the regulars in this thread possibly be interested in helping me with this? Like Leviathan or Emeraude, or anyone else? I know you get all the comics and novels, Emeraude, and those summaries are really useful. :P I think such a blog could turn into an authoritative resource, more focused than general WoW sites (and having better metadata organization) and less cluttered than Wowwiki. Any interest?

Exemplar · 05/27/09, 8:52 AM

Originally Posted by Liebestod

Something I found cute... Bornakk on Tyr on the WoW forums:

I think that's Blizzardese for "we forgot." Maybe they should just make him into a world boss, or better yet turn Jotun into Tyr to resolve two unresolved issues at once. Could also give him the Scythe of Elune too, hah. And the keys to a dance studio.

Or Tyr's "path" is the Sunwell raid. If they have to throw in a post Icecrown raid (which they're hoping not to do) they can explore Tyr. Otherwise he's another loose plot thread.

P.S. You forgot to mention he's probably exploring Under-Karazhan (located in AN!) and joins the fight against Neltharion using the Scythe when we suddenly walk out of a hole into Grim Batol. Blizzard totally needs to give us one single-boss raid that ties up every single loose end/rumour simultaneously. And then not give us a single quest to know it exists.

♦ Goatbert · 05/27/09, 12:34 PM

Originally Posted by Exemplar

Or Tyr's "path" is the Sunwell raid. If they have to throw in a post Icecrown raid (which they're hoping not to do) they can explore Tyr. Otherwise he's another loose plot thread.

P.S. You forgot to mention he's probably exploring Under-Karazhan (located in AN!) and joins the fight against Neltharion using the Scythe when we suddenly walk out of a hole into Grim Batol. Blizzard totally needs to give us one single-boss raid that ties up every single loose end/rumour simultaneously. And then not give us a single quest to know it exists.

Tyr joined Alleria and Turalyon in an effort to free the scythe of elune from the worgen who helped the dark riders take over Gilneas. On their way they were accosted by some Nerubians who had dug all the way to Gilneas from Azjol'Nerub. They fled on Tyr's back and he swam Alleria and Turalyon all the way to Kul'tiras. There Jaina's brother gave them a ship to sail to Tanaris so they could go into Uldum and find the missing Mograine brother who was supposed to be in Outland but was actually being held hostage by the Ravasaur trainer. Unfortunately on their way they ran aground near the Tomb of Sargeras and accidentally summoned the Dark Titan who cast a spell knocking them into the emerald dream where both Hakkars were attacking Ysera and Malfurion. Nexus War.

Kaejin · 05/27/09, 11:07 PM

You forgot about Arthas's sister.

Emeraude · 05/28/09, 12:10 AM

Originally Posted by Kaejin

You forgot about Arthas's sister.

The fact that they've have multiple opportunities to just write her out of the lore and didn't tells me she'll re-appear down the line. Lordaeron is a Human kingdom after all, fallen at the moment, but if WoW history teaches anything most factions reclaim their homelands eventually, she might even provide a future king to that line, or show up in Gilenas.

To expand on this further, Varian would very likely support anyone that could make a legitimate claim to Lordaeron's throne. Just as King Teranas supported Stormwind when they lost their kingdom/home.

Jagiya · 05/28/09, 12:52 AM

Originally Posted by Emeraude

if WoW history teaches anything most factions reclaim their homelands eventually.

Have pity on us poor Gnomes.

Vaccine · 05/28/09, 3:55 AM

Originally Posted by Emeraude

Lordaeron is a Human kingdom after all, fallen at the moment, but if WoW history teaches anything most factions reclaim their homelands eventually, she might even provide a future king to that line, or show up in Gilenas.

Well mostly Lordaeron still houses its original inhabitants. They may no longer be human but they still have deeds of ownership and the like as referenced by a few Forsaken quests out of Undercity and the surrounding area.

Enova · 05/28/09, 9:19 AM

Originally Posted by Emeraude

but if WoW history teaches anything most factions reclaim their homelands eventually

Yeah, because that's why Orgrimmar is in Outland and the Darkspears live on an island. :P
Anyway, there's really not much chance the political division of Azeroth will change in the game. Maybe Warcraft IV, but I doubt it...

Mr. Crow · 05/28/09, 10:00 AM

Originally Posted by Enova

Yeah, because that's why Orgrimmar is in Outland and the Darkspears live on an island. :P
Anyway, there's really not much chance the political division of Azeroth will change in the game. Maybe Warcraft IV, but I doubt it...

Notably, too, the concept of factions reclaiming their homeland only carries water when the faction is functionally the same as it was previously. The people of Stormwind reclaiming Stormwind after the First War were not dramatically changed by the event in the long-run -- they went back to being normal human citizens after being people in exile. The Bronzebeards reclaimed Ironforge during the War of Three Hammers, but then too, they weren't really dramatically changed by that event.

With Lordaeron, the people of that nation are all dead. Granted, many have come back in undeath, but a bunch of the Forsaken lore establishes that death is a barrier to laying claim to what the Forsaken possessed in life. I can't think of any instances where survivors of Lordaeron are holed up somewhere, except Stratholme survivors taken to Theramore by Jaina, and whoever was left in Tyr's Hand, and they hardly count. Except for Calia Menethil, there is nothing of Lordaeron's power structure still in existence. Even if she is still alive, she doesn't have a kingdom to recover. Just an old castle filled with curses, and a land filled with empty graves.

With the Orcs, it's a little harder. The Horde that left Draenor through the Dark Portal in the First and Second Wars was not the Horde that returned to Draenor in the Burning Crusade. The old Horde weren't really exiled, nor was their home destroyed until Ner'zhul essentially destroyed the planet out of spite. While yes, the Portal was sealed and the Orcs couldn't go home, it wasn't the same as the humans being ejected from a burning Stormwind. Thrall's new Horde has their homeland in Orgrimmar, in Durotar -- packing all of that up and taking back to the ruined tatters of an ancestral home is probably not terribly appealing to them.

Emeraude · 05/28/09, 11:33 AM

Originally Posted by Enova

Yeah, because that's why Orgrimmar is in Outland and the Darkspears live on an island. :P
Anyway, there's really not much chance the political division of Azeroth will change in the game. Maybe Warcraft IV, but I doubt it...

Well who's to say that the Darkspears don't reclaim that at one point?

That's as up in the air as Gnomeregan. The Orcs however have reclaimed Nagrand to a degree, they have standing military forces out there to protect their ancestral grounds. Rehgar was musing that Thrall should send Garrosh back out to Nagrand and their stationed forces there(WoW Comic #16).

As for Lordaeron's people, lots of them that still exist, the Scarlet Crusade for better or worse were in fact Lordaeron survivors, granted, we don't know how many of them will still be alive if at all post WotLK, but they do fit into that category. Many members of the Argent Dawn are also former Lordaeron survivors, who went as far as to salvage the corpses of their heroes when they fled the falling kingdom(Ashbringer #4). Southshore itself houses residents that are Lordaeron survivors. We're not sure of the official status of the surrounding areas since Horde quests wipe them out, but Hillsbrad farms, and mine are all Lordaeron members. And of course there are Lordaeron refuges and survivors taking residence in Stormwind. Gilneas is still a major question mark, while we know the gate is closed now, there is a chance that Lordaeron refuges ended up there at one point.

The major part again, is if somebody could make a claim to the throne/land. You know that Varian would support the retaking of that city regardless of it's current state, he says as much during The Battle for Undercity, and having somebody to crown and put in place would make life easier for him(I'm basing this off of what almost happened with Deathwing and Terenas and Alterac, as well as when Terenas protected Varian's claim to Stormwind). The Forsaken are not large in number, and don't have the means to repopulate themselves extensively, it's only a matter of time before they lose the Undercity to some other force. I can only imagine the loses they incurred due to Varimarthas' betrayal.

Enova · 05/28/09, 11:45 AM

Originally Posted by Emeraude

The Forsaken are not large in number, and don't have the means to repopulate themselves extensively, it's only a matter of time before they lose the Undercity to some other force

Wait a second there. This little bit just sparked an idea in my head that might just put things into context about the plagues they've been experimenting with. While there's no hint that the current version of the plague they unleashed at Wrathgate can do this, it would make sense that more bodies could be harvested to bolster their ranks. It would be most plausible that this works best on the Scourge, by removing them from the grasp of the Lich king without physically harming the corpse. And voila, instant able bodied soldiers, with a good motivation to join the Forsaken.

Emeraude · 05/28/09, 11:51 AM

Originally Posted by Enova

Wait a second there. This little bit just sparked an idea in my head that might just put things into context about the plagues they've been experimenting with. While there's no hint that the current version of the plague they unleashed at Wrathgate can do this, it would make sense that more bodies could be harvested to bolster their ranks. It would be most plausible that this works best on the Scourge, by removing them from the grasp of the Lich king without physically harming the corpse. And voila, instant able bodied soldiers, with a good motivation to join the Forsaken.

The plague the Forsaken has been experimenting with was designed to destroy the living and the dead, not bring them back for reanimation. In the Arthas novel Rise of the Lich King the bodies of those given the Forsaken's plague turn to mush, and again we know the bodies @ Wrathgate were practically melting into mush as well.

HOWEVER, Alexstrasza did torch the entire area, whether this was to burn the plague or the bodies so they couldn't be reanimated isn't clear.

Liebestod · 05/28/09, 1:49 PM

Bornakk made a quick post on unfinished content in Azeroth:

What this question is really relating to is something that happens during development of any content so I will try and give a quick example that hopefully makes sense.

Lets say we start out with 10 (arbitrary number for this example) things we want to implement. During the development we cut out 2 of them that we feel weren't as cool as we originally we wanted, then later on, we cut 2 other things because we don't have the time for them and prefer to focus on the other 6 items. Just because these 4 things were cut doesn't mean they aren't in the game files in some primitive form (e.g. blank spots of land), they are just things that players don't have access to.

Any content that gets cut is something we may end up taking a look at it again in the future, but only if we feel it is a good time and will be a be a really positive addition to the game. We are totally fine with putting it off for years/indefinitely (hi Ravasaur trainer!) if necessary too especially when there are new ideas that we feel are better and will add more to the game, even if it means going in an Outland-ish direction.

I can just imagine them finishing up all the expansions they have in mind, then releasing a bunch of "stuff we put off forever" content. Except that'd be kinda lame. "You may have defeated Sargeras, but can you face the perils of Timbermaw Hold?!"

Anyways, the lore news blog I mentioned is up at Coming Soon to Azeroth . Check it out! *cough* This'll be the only direct plug for it, although I'll probably reference it in these discussions whenever possible. Because that's what it's for. Thanks to Emeraude and Mr. Crow for offering to help maintain it.

Leviathon · 05/28/09, 2:04 PM

Originally Posted by Emeraude

The plague the Forsaken has been experimenting with was designed to destroy the living and the dead, not bring them back for reanimation. In the Arthas novel Rise of the Lich King the bodies of those given the Forsaken's plague turn to mush, and again we know the bodies @ Wrathgate were practically melting into mush as well.

HOWEVER, Alexstrasza did torch the entire area, whether this was to burn the plague or the bodies so they couldn't be reanimated isn't clear.

But we do know that Sylvanas has been actively breaking undead from the Lich Kings grasp over the years to continue bolstering her numbers (hence why she has been recruiting Necromancers also). Even if they came under attack I'd imagine the majority of their fighting force would consist of disposable forces such as Abominations and not so much the Forsaken themselves.

Kaejin · 05/28/09, 7:17 PM

Who's to say what happens to the Scourge after the defeat of Arthas, also.

It seems likely to me that the Forsaken will get a flood of new membership applications.