World of Warcraft - Lore & Storyline discussion [SPOILERS] - Page 229

Judikael · 05/30/09, 3:20 PM

I like Tirion, I really do, however, I really didn't want him to be the one to lead the charge. I'm still holding out hope that Jaina and Sylvanas join the fight. I'm still bitter about Illidan dying with no tie-in to Tyrande and I'm crossing my fingers they don't do the same with LK/Arthas and Jaina/Sylvanas, especially after the book concentrating so much on the two of them.

Camaris · 06/01/09, 5:51 AM

There definitely are a lot of factions and major lore characters that have a bone to pick with Arthas. I think it would be very interesting to see other factions also fighting the Lich King at the same time as us (as NPCs in or outside of the instance). I especially liked the rather ominous quote by Mal'Ganis in Icecrown:

You'll never defeat the Lich King without my forces! I'll have my revenge on him, and you!

We don't know a whole lot of Icecrown 'bosses' (Sindragosa will likely be one, and hopefully those underused San'layn blood princes), but wouldn't it be cool to have some kind of Burning Legion vs. Scourge multi-boss fight, where we help Mal'Ganis first and then he turns on us?

Other than the Legon, we have other factions in WotLK that may become involved in the actual fights. Obviously, Darion and Tirion and Ashbringer will probably play a large role in or around the instance. For the Alliance, we also have the Frostborn dwarves (Muradin), who may possibly be mirrored by the Taunka for the Horde?

Then there is still the largely unknown relation between the Lich King and the Old Gods. We know the Icecrown Citadel is built on top of the Forgotton Depths, and that the Scourge has been so bold as to capture a Faceless One to enslave saronite miners, although it seems entirely possible that the Darkspeaker was willingly there, and was waiting for us to free him.

Concerning that last point... throughout questing and levelling, we have occasionally been tempted to do evil things in the name of the Lich King or the Old God... is that story kind of over, or do we suppose there is still a possibility of a big "You were unknowingly working for me all along!" plot twister in Icecrown?

♦ Goatbert · 06/01/09, 9:48 AM

Originally Posted by Ashen

I noticed something tonight before we started pulling Vezax trash, and I couldn't find if it had been brought up before.

If you ever go down Hodir's hallway, at the end you'll find that there's a dead end with a lone Frost Giant sitting in front of it. Likewise, between Mimiron's and Vezax's Hallways, there's a locked door. Each entryway has a unique decoration, signifying who resides within. It made me wonder if they hadn't actually forgotten about Tyr but then realized they didn't have time / space, or just plain thought of something new to do with him?

I would think they ran out of time. I noticed that same door, I assume that is where Tyr would have been.

It would be nice if they pulled him because they found something better, and it would actually go along with the quest text at his temple in storm peaks - there was no struggle, not because he didn't resist but because he was already gone.

Mordinm · 06/01/09, 10:38 AM

Originally Posted by Camaris

Then there is still the largely unknown relation between the Lich King and the Old Gods. We know the Icecrown Citadel is built on top of the Forgotton Depths, and that the Scourge has been so bold as to capture a Faceless One to enslave saronite miners, although it seems entirely possible that the Darkspeaker was willingly there, and was waiting for us to free him.

I think the saronite mine slaves were enslaved by simpler means. The taskmistresses in the mines are there to keep them in line. It's just the proximity to saronite and the forgotten depths that drives them insane as opposed to controling them. The Darspeaker just poped his head in one day and got caught.

Old Gods don't seem to like anything they can't control or drive insane. Same with the Lich King, though he uses contol exclusively over the insanity the Old Gods seem to like. The Old Gods don't seem to be able to affect the Lich Kings minions and I don't think we've seen any undead faceless either. The only possible connection is that Arthas' Heart is surrounded by faceless. But again they don't seem to be protecting the heart. It might be that Arthas stuck his heart in an abandon pit thinking no one would find it then the faceless were drawn to it's power/evilness and set up camp later.

Emeraude · 06/01/09, 10:50 AM

Originally Posted by Camaris

Concerning that last point... throughout questing and levelling, we have occasionally been tempted to do evil things in the name of the Lich King or the Old God... is that story kind of over, or do we suppose there is still a possibility of a big "You were unknowingly working for me all along!" plot twister in Icecrown?

I've rather given up on that at this point. I haven't done anything in Northrend that I outright would regret on my toon, except MAYBE the Drakuru questline/helping Loken, but even those were corrected fairly quickly. It really would have been cool if we did some borderline Arthas type stuff in Northrend, abandoning some NPCs for items, or a vengeance quest, losing a very important area and becoming desperate, honestly the entire Northrend experience has been for the most part, positive, with the exception for the Wrathgate incident, and that one can't even be attributed to Arthas. I mean, I'm sure he can lie about it, "Yeah, that Wrathgate thing? That was me." "Err, but Varimathas was working for the legion." ">.> No IT WAS ME, I was there right?!" "Errr you got bombed" "SHUT UP AND BOW TO THE LICH KING *Casts Wrath of the Lich King*" :p

Cranberry · 06/01/09, 11:03 AM

Originally Posted by Emeraude

I've rather given up on that at this point. I haven't done anything in Northrend that I outright would regret on my toon, except MAYBE the Drakuru questline/helping Loken, but even those were corrected fairly quickly. It really would have been cool if we did some borderline Arthas type stuff in Northrend, abandoning some NPCs for items, or a vengeance quest, losing a very important area and becoming desperate, honestly the entire Northrend experience has been for the most part, positive, with the exception for the Wrathgate incident, and that one can't even be attributed to Arthas. I mean, I'm sure he can lie about it, "Yeah, that Wrathgate thing? That was me." "Err, but Varimathas was working for the legion." ">.> No IT WAS ME, I was there right?!" "Errr you got bombed" "SHUT UP AND BOW TO THE LICH KING *Casts Wrath of the Lich King*" :p

Oddly enough, there were a few quests that made me feel that way, but they didn't involve the Lich King. They involved the Nexus War - particularly Drake Hunt and the torture one at Amber Ledge. I wonder if there was originally supposed to be an "A-HA! Gotcha!" bit in EOE.

AJAlkaline · 06/01/09, 11:12 AM

Originally Posted by Camaris

Concerning that last point... throughout questing and levelling, we have occasionally been tempted to do evil things in the name of the Lich King or the Old God... is that story kind of over, or do we suppose there is still a possibility of a big "You were unknowingly working for me all along!" plot twister in Icecrown?

Now, this is more of a wish-list type of post, but I think it would be rather awesome if Icecrown started with a big Ulduar-style siege sequence (hopefully involving the horde and alliance airships in some way), and then when you beat the gatekeeper boss and get inside the instance you immediately see Arthas. Arthas does a short monologue or something and then he walks out into your raid and just walks from player to player one-shotting them. After your entire raid has wiped, he resurrects everyone but they have a debuff saying that they are under the thrall of the Lich King, and all scourge are friendly to them.

Then begins a gauntlet-style sequence where waves after waves of horde and alliance soldiers come rushing in to attempt to attack the Lich King, and you have to fight them off. Periodically you'll fight horde or alliance bosses. Eventually you'll end up fighting Darion or Tirion or something and at the end of the fight they'll somehow save you from the Lich King's grasp. From there the Lich King will retreat and the instance will progress as normal.

Kraith · 06/01/09, 1:01 PM

Originally Posted by Leviathon

If what Metzen told us at Blizzcon stays true then I doubt all the undead will suddenly be free anyway. He mentioned how Arthas will die but the Lich King himself not so much so maybe when we destroy Arthas it allows Ner'zhul to pop back up in control. Course he also said we would only get in Illidans way and not kill him so guess that can change.

Ner'zhul is in control. He melded with Arthas when Arthas dawned his armor. Killing Arthas' body may remove Arthas' spirit from Ner'zhul's but Ner'zhul is still there in very much in control.

Judikael · 06/01/09, 1:26 PM

Originally Posted by AJAlkaline

Now, this is more of a wish-list type of post, but I think it would be rather awesome if Icecrown started with a big Ulduar-style siege sequence (hopefully involving the horde and alliance airships in some way), and then when you beat the gatekeeper boss and get inside the instance you immediately see Arthas. Arthas does a short monologue or something and then he walks out into your raid and just walks from player to player one-shotting them. After your entire raid has wiped, he resurrects everyone but they have a debuff saying that they are under the thrall of the Lich King, and all scourge are friendly to them.

Then begins a gauntlet-style sequence where waves after waves of horde and alliance soldiers come rushing in to attempt to attack the Lich King, and you have to fight them off. Periodically you'll fight horde or alliance bosses. Eventually you'll end up fighting Darion or Tirion or something and at the end of the fight they'll somehow save you from the Lich King's grasp. From there the Lich King will retreat and the instance will progress as normal.

That's not a bad idea, I like it. However, I have to question one part. If you are one-shotted by the Lich King and ressurected as Scourge, wouldn't that make you undead from now on? You'd essentially be Forsaken. I propose that instead of taking you down, he would essentially do what was done to Arthas. You'd lose your mind; you'd slip into a confused, insecure state where fighting the Alliance/Horde would make sense to you. Basically you'd be mind controlled by the Lich King until Darion/Tirion would free your mind and allow you to continue.

Strom · 06/01/09, 1:37 PM

Originally Posted by Kraith

Ner'zhul is in control. He melded with Arthas when Arthas dawned his armor. Killing Arthas' body may remove Arthas' spirit from Ner'zhul's but Ner'zhul is still there in very much in control.

Not according to the recently released Novel. It reads as if Arthas is in control, not Ner'zhul.

Mendoza · 06/01/09, 1:54 PM

Originally Posted by Judikael

That's not a bad idea, I like it. However, I have to question one part. If you are one-shotted by the Lich King and ressurected as Scourge, wouldn't that make you undead from now on? You'd essentially be Forsaken. I propose that instead of taking you down, he would essentially do what was done to Arthas. You'd lose your mind; you'd slip into a confused, insecure state where fighting the Alliance/Horde would make sense to you. Basically you'd be mind controlled by the Lich King until Darion/Tirion would free your mind and allow you to continue.

It's all pretty inconsistent in that sense though. Death knights should be all forsaken by conventional logic, whether it be in alignment or racial abilities or whatever.

Probably the best way to see the forsaken then is not as a race created from undead who've been freed from the lich king's control, but as those freed undead that share a common set of beliefs and / or have banded together (it wasn't as if anyone would have taken them in at the time).

Zaleiria · 06/01/09, 1:55 PM

Originally Posted by Strom

Not according to the recently released Novel. It reads as if Arthas is in control, not Ner'zhul.

I wonder if Ner'zhul and Arthas are just fooling each other. That'd be an interesting dynamic for their combined personality to have, I think. Unfortunately, there's not really any proof of it.

Kraith · 06/01/09, 2:32 PM

Originally Posted by Strom

Not according to the recently released Novel. It reads as if Arthas is in control, not Ner'zhul.

Or does it read as if one being is in control? IE Arthas and Ner'zhul fusing together. All the previous lore I read seems to point to them fusing together. (though blizzard does change things) I doubt Arthas was powerful enough to overthrow the being that gave him is power. Ner'zhul planned to have him dawn the armor; I doubt he would allow himself to lose the power he had. Just my thoughts though.

Strom · 06/01/09, 2:48 PM

Originally Posted by Kraith

Or does it read as if one being is in control? IE Arthas and Ner'zhul fusing together. All the previous lore I read seems to point to them fusing together. (though blizzard does change things) I doubt Arthas was powerful enough to overthrow the being that gave him is power. Ner'zhul planned to have him dawn the armor; I doubt he would allow himself to lose the power he had. Just my thoughts though.

The feeling I got was that Ner'zhul probably underestimated Arthas' willpower. Once he put on the armor it was then a battle of wills, and well Arthas won.

But like a poster above said, this could just be from Arthas' viewpoint when in reality, they both are in control as a single being, or perhaps something else is even in control, like what ever the sword and armor were forged from, kinda like the opposite of the Ashbringer (which some believe is actually related to a naaru somehow).

Kraith · 06/01/09, 2:54 PM

Originally Posted by Strom

The feeling I got was that Ner'zhul probably underestimated Arthas' willpower. Once he put on the armor it was then a battle of wills, and well Arthas won.

But like a poster above said, this could just be from Arthas' viewpoint when in reality, they both are in control as a single being, or perhaps something else is even in control, like what ever the sword and armor were forged from, kinda like the opposite of the Ashbringer (which some believe is actually related to a naaru somehow).

Either way I think once we kill Arthas, he is removed from the picture. I do not think the Lich King will be gone entirely so the Scourge will not collapse......it will lose many many of its members though. (The leader being defeated even partially would probably mean some minions with stronger wills are freed.)

I read some where that the Ashbringer is possibly a shard of a Naaru in its Void cycle. When they attacked it with Holy energy it absorbed the energy and left its void state.........can't find the link on work pc though.