It'll be interesting to see where this goes. I would assume for the sake of gameplay (ie: keeping the Forsaken in the Horde) that this won't cause tensions to flare too high. I wonder if Keever is still up to his... business, or if he's the "gibbering idiot" (which seems likely).

It seems to me that Shadowmourne may be a legendary similar to Sulfuras, Hand of Ragnaros. The fact that it has two models (an impressive glowing one, and a more subdued one without runes or a ram skull) makes me think that the subdued one is either a drop or crafted, that you can use in the meantime until you fulfill the requirements to change it into the "true" Shadowmourne.

Baine was put back at the end of 3.2.2 on the PTR but he is once again missing in 3.3. Really is curious what they are doing with him and if they are trying to settup a scripted event since there is even a quest that refers to him as the leader of the tauren now.

There also seems to be a model for Terethas Menethil included on the PTR. Perhaps he makes an appearance in form of a vision (like Alexandors Morgraine at Battle for Light'S Hope Chapel) in the final showdown at the Frozen Throne.

I find it somehow refreshing that these are the Kor'kron, rather than Garrosh's Warsong guards, though. Looks like we're in for a lot of strange things happening here

True, and seem to have been put there by Thrall himself. But in Agmar's Hammer, Kor'kron are following Agmar's orders. And Sylvannas' advisor is donning "Warsong" armor.

Let's see if Garrosh can win the Kor'kron's loyalty come Cataclysm or if they'll end up butchered/imprisoned/disbanded.

The Run for your Life, leave the Children and the Weak Behind quest for the Hall of Reflections (still don't like the name) further hints at a damsel in distress/cut in half for Sylvannas and Jaina, respectively. They've got my attention, now.

MMO-Champion has a picture of Terenas Menethil: http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...er/terenas.jpg (in, I must say, uncharacteristically sober armor for a WoW character).

Now.. my memory of him is dim. Apparently he narrated the WotLK trailer, but he should be pretty much dead and buried, right? So what? A ghost? A surprise resurrection? Pulled out of time?

In the best interest of all the cliché haters, I hope Therenas doesn't bring the same "I'm so proud of you, drop that evil blade" speech as Mograine.

Darion sacrificed himself to save his father's soul. Arthas sacrificed his father after becoming souless in order for his evil mastermind of a master (pardon redundance) to succeed.

Unless Therena's ghost "froze" at the moment his son killed him and remains shocked and dumbfounded, he has absolutely no reason to forgive his bastard (personality-wise) of a son.

I'm all for complete disaster to end WotLK. Jaina dying, Sylvanas being further tortured, Saurfang killing his son and dying in the process, Wrynn killing his best friend, Therenas advocating for his own son's death.

It's high time Blizzard makes good on that promise to make the players leave a part of themselves in Northrend. Wrath Gate was great. Now make it even worse.

On Shadowmourne: it's definitely a reforged Frostmourne. Is Blizzard trying to be funny? How exactly will reforging stop the damn thing from turning its wielder to go /cast Souless all of a sudden?

I don't know where you are getting that Shadowmourne is definitely a reforged Frostmourne.

From...
...it seems to be a reforging of Arthas' old weapon. Also, it would seem unlikely for us to take Frostmourne in the 5-man at least, both for the reasons you stated (its corrupting power) and the fact that we would then be facing the Lich King without Frostmoune in the raid which, to me at least, would feel like a hollow victory. It'd be like beating Tiger Woods in a golf match when we broke his driver, half his irons, and his putter beforehand.

I don't think we steal Frostmourne in the 5-man. The quest says "Reveal the secrets of Frostmourne", so we probably try to take or disable it, yes, but end up uncovering a way to kill the Lich King. He'll still have the sword in the raid.

It'll probably end up broken, after which we pick up the pieces and reforge it.

In your second quote may lie the trick that allows us to wield a reforged Frostmourne without going locos. We'll use Arthas' paladin hammer to reforge it - don't think it's the hammer reforged, look at the "unshiny" version of shadowmourne, it's all blackish and dark, little to do with the hammer - thereby cleansing it.

Makes some sense, but I still hear Blizzard laughing at all those who wanted to wield Frostmourne.

Edit: Hadn't completely read the quest there...it does seem like it's the hammer that gets the forging treatment. Not really what I would think, with Shadowmourne looking so like Frostmourne.

Unless the hammer needs to be coated in saronite to bang on the metal. But that's stretchy at best.

Honestly, the Forsaken are getting off light. They killed Kok'run and wanted to to kill everyone else. I don't see this as being mean or requiring Garrosh at all. The orcs say as much - "Yeah, it's a pain in the ass, but you guys tried to commit genocide."

That map also looks like a madcap escape situation. The blue room has two bosses - Falric and Marwyn - and the green chamber that looks like a dias room has an opening that leads to you moving along a cliff. The layout looks weird for doing cliff, green room and then blue room.

That's just it... so far the Kok'kron are Thrall's bodyguard, not Garrosh's enforcers. So it seems more like they're here to replace the RAS' abominations that were lost during Putress' coup, rather than a police force keeping the Forsaken on a tight leash. It's more like Sylvannas owes Thrall one for backing her up now.

She actually owes the whole Horde. Hence why she'll be attacking Gilneas by orders of Garrosh. And why the future of the Kor'kron is uncertain and possibly nasty. The current supervision will, especially with that counsellor, turn into political control pretty quick.

Why is the Kor'kron uncertain and possibly nasty or is that just more guess work? They're there for the dual purpose of protecting Undercity and keeping an eye on the everyday activities to try ensure Putress v2.0 doesn't appear.

As for the Kor'kron they are the elite fight force, which whilst its job includes guarding the Warchief, it includes many other things. I see no reason why they wouldn't follow Hellscream as warchief.

Speaking literally, he wasn't buried.

The urn containing his ashes was taken from Uther by Arthas, and used at the Sunwell to resurrect Kel'thuzad.

I'll give it a go, although I've explained it above...

The Kor'kron Guard is an organization within the Horde. For the most part, they are seen as the elite fighting force of the Horde, serving as the personal bodyguards of Warchief Thrall

Kor'kron Guard - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft

Even if they're present in other battle sites, the Kor'kron seem to answer to Thrall and actually share some of his philosophy. They are, at least, highly disciplined and if they don't share Thrall's feelings, they follow them when deployed.

In Agmar, they follow the Overlord's orders, but are there as soldiers. The base's lieutenants are all of the Warsong clan or loyal to Garrosh.

What I'm saying is there's a chance that - if the Kor'kron are indeed Thrall's (and not the Warchief's, no matter who he is) personal guard, and if Garrosh's rise to power is, let's say, less transparent - the Kor'kron, even if not all of them, might refuse to obey to Hellscream. At least with the higher echelons inside the unit, closer to Thrall, that's a real possibility. Then it's up to Garrosh to either try to win their loyalty, disband them or brand them as traitors and take the "necessary measures".

What's so guessy about it? You're jumping at the first sign of people antecipating scenarios. Look at Baine's rise to Warchief. It indicates something's happened to Cairne, just like some of us were saying. I'm basing my theories on factual elements, so it's not crystal-ball reading.

That is a hell of a lot of ifs, and isn't really backed up by anything factual. Can you show me an example where the Kor'kron are either sharing in Thrall's philosophy, or loyal specifically to him rather than the Horde? Of the few named Kor'kron there are, they seem more to be of Garrosh's cut than anything else. Especially Agmar, the overlord of all the Kor'kron in Northrend. So yes, it rather is crystal ball reading to suddenly assume they're going to get butchered as you put it, or mutiny, or taken over by black dragons.

Ah, the black dragon thing is still itching. No, but sadly, it hasn't got anything to do with this. And I've stated more than once I'm don't support it, merely think it possible based on past black dragon impersonating faction characters.

As I've said, the commanders in Agmar's Hammer, Agmar included, are probably Warsong. Or loyal to Garrosh, not Kor'kron. Kor'kron, as Wowwiki states, are Thrall's personal guard. From which I assume they are almost hand-picked. Especially their leaders. Those leaders being close to Thrall, they might not see Garrosh's ascension as something good.

Where's the emptiness there? Lots of praetorian guards in History (real life, from where WoW's come and base their characters) have stood beside their leaders to the last fight and fallen with them. Templars were disbanded by the Catholic Church, for example. They fought for God, whose representative was the Pope, but had their internal code.

I don't want to derail into a discussion, I actually value your opinions. If you don't agree with mine, say it. But don't go "You're imagining things..." when I am basing my assumptions on characters' behaviours.

You assume Garrosh is or is on the way to becoming a great leader. I don't agree with it. See me calling you names your going personal? Please don't take it that way.

You really are grasping at straws, Bierzkrieg. Even WoWWiki never says the Kor'kron share in Thrall's outlook or philosophy. It just says they are his bodyguards. They are in charge of protecting him from Alliance invaders, they are not his counterparts in diplomatic relations. And you can't link WoWWiki to support your argument and then contradict what it says e.g. Agmar being Kor'kron instead of Warsong. It really does seem more like writing mild fanfic than "basing [your] assumptions on characters' behaviours".

I really doubt anything bad will happen within the Horde when Garrosh takes over. There is really nothing to point to other orcs disliking Garrosh (or even anyone in the Horde in general) and we still have no idea what happens in Icecrown that may change him ever slightly. The part with the Kor'kron being Thralls personal guard isn't sourced on wowwiki and seems to just be assumption based on them being the elite guard who guard the leader (what a surprise!).

Chronological suspension of disbelief. Killing the Tauran is part of the bioweapon project that culminates at the Wrathgate. Orcs are put there because of what happened at the Wrathgate.

We have to remember that we have seen Garrosh be a monosylabic meathead on multiple occasions and this drives our personal ire. The Horde in general have never met the folk. Most of the leaders of many groups probably have not met him. Those who have will generally have met him in favourable circumstances - Horde only war councils and the like.

Garrosh's posturing in Rhonin's room (Ulduar trailer) had few witnesses. Anything he says in the Coliseum has few witnesses (and half of those are killed by the Alliance as Faction Champs) - and those present are probably hand picked, too.

So why would the Horde in general have any problem if Garrosh was appointed Warchief? I don't see the disapproval anywhere other than Saurfang's face. Even Thrall isn't telling the punk to shut up. I doubt a coup is necessary or that any Royal Guard (historically as likely to participate or BEGIN a coup as put one down) Kor'kron would instigate some counter-coup.

I think Garrosh will gain power through legitimate channels - Thrall directly appoints, or Thrall steps down and Garrosh gets himself effectively elected/appointed.