World of Warcraft - Lore & Storyline discussion [SPOILERS] - Page 230

Judikael · 06/01/09, 3:09 PM

Originally Posted by Mendoza

It's all pretty inconsistent in that sense though. Death knights should be all forsaken by conventional logic, whether it be in alignment or racial abilities or whatever.

Probably the best way to see the forsaken then is not as a race created from undead who've been freed from the lich king's control, but as those freed undead that share a common set of beliefs and / or have banded together (it wasn't as if anyone would have taken them in at the time).

I agree with the statement of inconsistancy. That's true, it's very vague of what actually constitutes Forsaken. I still don't think having everyone die would be a great idea, especially for roleplaying purposes. It's a cool idea in theory but in practice, I think a lot of people would dislike being forced to be considered undead.

PDXMarcos · 06/01/09, 4:34 PM

It doesn't seem that Yogg has much to do with the plot in terms of the acts that make Wrath of the Lich King Expansion contrary to general consensus. It appears that he is only a subplot to explain why the forces of the Horde and Alliance continue to diverge from their nearly friendly relations at the close of the Burning Crusade. As such, I have little belief that we will see a continuation of the Old God plotline as we progress through 3.2 and 3.3 other than just a one-line mention.

The story of Wrath is focused on Arthas and his affect on the inhabitants of Azeroth, specifically the Horde and Alliance forces. The stop in Ulduar is merely a detour to destroy an old evil that persists and threatens to wreck havoc upon Azeroth through influencing their leaders. Through the cinematic at the release of 3.1 we see that the tensions are rising between the two factions as we slowly approach the footsteps of the Icecrown Citadel. It shows that they are no longer able to unite under a common purpose to destroy evil despite their disagreements.

Emeraude · 06/01/09, 4:42 PM

It's not overly complicated or inconsistent really.

The Forsaken broke free during a period when Lordaeron forces were still trying to reclaim that city. In the aftermath the remaining Alliance forces were wiped out, so the Forsaken were seen as hostile. The Horde had no real issue with them slaughtering humans and trying to survive so they were accepted into the Horde.

The Death Knights of Acherus broke free after culling the remaining Scarlet infestation in the Eastern Plaguelands. The Scarlets were extremists and not allied to either faction. In the aftermath Tirion Fordring respectfully spoke on the Death Knight's behalf, so in the case of the Alliance these particular former-scourge had somebody to speak for them and help them back into the faction, something the original Forsaken members did not have the benefit of. It also doesn't hurt that those same Death Knights didn't slaughter Alliance forces and don't actively control one of their former cities.

Edit: It appears there's an added epilogue to the WoW: Ashbringer comic line.
Posted here by Scrolls of Lore's Vineyard World of Warcraft: Ashbringer - Hardcover Edition Epilogue - Scrolls of Lore Forums

Epilogue

Weeks later in Tirisfal Glades, North of the Scarlett Monestary.

Saidan Dathrohan rides in the woods and is greated by Varimathras. He says he doesn't look well, weak and pale. Dathrohan answers that Varmathras takes his good fortune granted to live as he is and not to be forced to hide behind a facade of mortal flesh. He turns into Balnazzar and says he can now adress him as equal. Varimathras say they work for the day when he may cast off that mortal facade forever and asks him of the Scourge. Balnazzar tells him that they have been dealt a serious blow, both by to Crusade and most recently by Maywell Tyrosus and the Argent Dawn. However, he says that the setback is only temporary and that the Scourge has the Ashbringer again. Varimathras answers says that it doesn't matter and that the board is nearly set and the Pieces are almost in place. In Fact, one of those pieces should be arriving anytime now.

He tells Castillian to come forth, who teleports in front of them and gives him a vial. He calls him one of their most faithful devotees, who was able to infilitrate the Argent Dawn months ago. He also says that circumstances led him to Naxxramas ,where he was able to aquire Plague Base spores. Varimathras calls it the penultimate component of their own plague. A contaganion, that will decimate Human, Orc and Undead alike. He says that now only one final igredient remains and the recipe will be complete. Grand Apothecary Putress will be most pleased. Balnazzar answers that this pleases him as well and that he will continue this little charade, distasteful though it my be. Him tells his borther to excuse him, because he as a ceremony to attend.

The scene switches to the Scarlett Monestary, to Taelan Fordrings promotions ceremony , were he is blessed by Issilien. He tells Taelan to arrise and if he will uphold the honor nad codes of the Scarlett Crusade? Taelan hesitates shortly but says he do.

At the beginning of the ceremony we can see that somebody watches the Happening hidden in the shadows.

The scene switches again to a hill in the near of the Monestary, where Tirion Fordring is sitting with his horse. Lord Maxwell arrives and greats hi. Tirion asks him how he did find him. Maxwell says that their shaman brethren possesses a remarkable ability to "see" across great distances. He also says that they all mourn the loss of Darion, but there is still much to be done. He tells Tirion that the Argent Dawn could benefit greatly from his experience and leadership.

Tirions tells him that Darion's words have taken hold in him and that in so many ways he reminded him of his own son, Taelan. A son he would see liberated from that damnable crusade. He says thatcare most be taken. Imay be that Taelan is beyond saving, thoughr he prays with all his heart otherwise and that come what may he'll find out. And once he has, he might call upon Maxwell.

In the meantime, should any harm befall his son, light help the Scarlett Crusade. He and Maxwell ride off.

Jagiya · 06/01/09, 9:51 PM

How can anyone remotely consider that Ner'Zhul is still in control? The end of RotLK concludes that Arthas is 100% in the drivers seat, and even suggests that Ner'Zhul has been killed off permanently. The words from Arthas' own mouth admit that after impaling Mathias and Ner'Zhul, he's not interested in being held back by emotion, and he's not interested in sharing his power with anyone. He makes it quite clear that he's all alone in there now, and delighted to be. He describes the sensation as "marvelous."

Emeraude · 06/01/09, 10:20 PM

Originally Posted by Jagiya

How can anyone remotely consider that Ner'Zhul is still in control? The end of RotLK concludes that Arthas is 100% in the drivers seat, and even suggests that Ner'Zhul has been killed off permanently. The words from Arthas' own mouth admit that after impaling Mathias and Ner'Zhul, he's not interested in being held back by emotion, and he's not interested in sharing his power with anyone. He makes it quite clear that he's all alone in there now, and delighted to be. He describes the sensation as "marvelous."

I consider the possiblity because we meet Mathias in Icecrown. But we won't know until the finale in 3.3, and we have nothing to base it on.

Keldin · 06/02/09, 3:15 AM

Originally Posted by Strom

The feeling I got was that Ner'zhul probably underestimated Arthas' willpower. *snip*

Well, Arthas did kill the majority of Stratholme to save his homeland, even before he got Frostmourne. Not to mention burning his own ships and betraying the mercenaries who helped him with that. That should give a slight hint about his willpower. Also, looking at the the Frozen Throne final cinematic I could swear Arthas is yelling "no" while he strikes the Frozen Throne with Frostmourne.

Vaccine · 06/02/09, 7:40 AM

Originally Posted by Judikael

That's not a bad idea, I like it. However, I have to question one part. If you are one-shotted by the Lich King and ressurected as Scourge, wouldn't that make you undead from now on? You'd essentially be Forsaken. I propose that instead of taking you down, he would essentially do what was done to Arthas. You'd lose your mind; you'd slip into a confused, insecure state where fighting the Alliance/Horde would make sense to you. Basically you'd be mind controlled by the Lich King until Darion/Tirion would free your mind and allow you to continue.

Raises an interesting point on Bolvar's fate. If he is undead now, maybe he is a potential for freeing him of the Lich King's control and him joining the Forsaken or the Ebon Blade. Either one you'd figure he would be a good emissary to Stormwind/Wyrnn.

I've also been wondering about the escalations between Wrynn and the Horde and thinking a smart move might be for Thrall to let Garrosh have his way and lead a force against Wyrnn, then warn Wyrnn they have defected and are coming for him. Would be a good way for Thrall to eliminate his main rival and to offer an olive branch, especially if Bolvar comes back in one form or another. Guess it may be too deceptive for Thrall to pull off though.

Kraith · 06/02/09, 9:14 AM

Originally Posted by Jagiya

How can anyone remotely consider that Ner'Zhul is still in control? The end of RotLK concludes that Arthas is 100% in the drivers seat, and even suggests that Ner'Zhul has been killed off permanently. The words from Arthas' own mouth admit that after impaling Mathias and Ner'Zhul, he's not interested in being held back by emotion, and he's not interested in sharing his power with anyone. He makes it quite clear that he's all alone in there now, and delighted to be. He describes the sensation as "marvelous."

Please link to this 100% conclusion. I never saw anything that concluded that. I do think Arthas was strong but I doubt he was strong enough to kill the being that gave him all of his current power. I find the theory that the are one being or the theory that they are at odds with each other but still somehow performing as the LK should more likely.

The words from Arthas' own mouth admit that

The mouth you are referring to is that of the Lich King, who isn't just Arthas or Ner'Zhul, so it is still quite possible one or both are still in there and no telling which one or if both are in control. If they fused together, the new being would also want to be rid of Arthas' emotion.

Wait for Icecrown; most likely we will get our answers there.

I personally think that the reason for the LK's attacks on the capitals was to draw heroes to him so he can turn them (read: Us.) possibly to replace the Death Knights he lost or because he wishes to use one of us as his knew body for some reason. There are a handful of possibilities with this theory.

Ner'Zhul is in control and trying to rid himself of Arthas' because he is weak or stronger than Ner'Zhul thought.
Arthas' is in control but his body is failing (The attack at the gate supports this a bit) and he wants a stronger vessel.
Ner'Zhul and Arthas are one being and the body is weak, this being is looking for a new vessel. (also supported by the gate attack)
Arthas is in control physically but Ner'Zhul is there pulling strings to find a new vessel to rid himself of Arthas.

Many different lines there.

The Infinite Dragonflight

What is the current thoughts here? Are they the future Bronzes? Most of the quests lead me to believe this but I feel they could also be corrupted Reds or simply corrupted dragons from all flights. I say Reds because they seem to try to attack and kill beings that caused (directly or indirectly) large scale death. Preventing Thrall from making a stronger Horde would prevent a new Horde/Alliance war (though the old Horde might have still caused this war). Killing Arthas would prevent him from becoming the LK. Stopping the Dark Portal would same thousands upon thousands. Hope we see more of them in the future and more than just one new instance.

The Blue flight? Will Kalec take charge of the flight after Maly was killed? Also hope to see more in the future.

Originally Posted by Vaccine

I've also been wondering about the escalations between Wrynn and the Horde and thinking a smart move might be for Thrall to let Garrosh have his way and lead a force against Wyrnn, then warn Wyrnn they have defected and are coming for him. Would be a good way for Thrall to eliminate his main rival and to offer an olive branch, especially if Bolvar comes back in one form or another. Guess it may be too deceptive for Thrall to pull off though.

I don't think Thrall could betray his own like that though; even though it would be a great way to rid himself of Garrosh and also steady relations between the Horde and Alliance.

Bullshot · 06/02/09, 9:38 AM

Originally Posted by Kraith

Please link to this 100% conclusion. I never saw anything that concluded that. I do think Arthas was strong but I doubt he was strong enough to kill the being that gave him all of his current power. I find the theory that the are one being or the theory that they are at odds with each other but still somehow performing as the LK should more likely.

The source is the Arthas: Rise of the Lich King novel. I doubt we'd be allowed to link scans on this site so the best thing to do would be to buy the novel; it is worth it anyway.

But as Emeraude wrote, the presence of Matthias in Icecrown is a bit disturbing. Does it mean that Ner'zhul can appear as well in corporeal form, and just like Matthias be visible only to a select few? Would he then appear to certain orcs who are in command and who are known to be a bit hot-headed in order to manipulate them into doing something for his gain? The possibility is intriguing to say the least.

Sarjin · 06/02/09, 9:49 AM

I personally don't see the prevention of large scale slaughter as an underlying motive for the infinites. While this might seem to hold true in the prevention of the Culling and the Dark Portal, it simply does not work so well for Thrall. While Thrall might have been involved in some conflicts, it's pretty easy to see given his character that any other leader would have means additional casualties. When it comes to the reforming of the new horde, conventional lore dictates that the Battle for Mount Hyjal would have been lost without said Horde - with the end of essentially all life on Azeroth as a result. Additionally the quote from I believe Aeonus ("The time has come to shatter this clockwork universe") does not strike me as a particularly 'red' or life preserving motive.

Going by the TBC component of the infinites, I'd have said that the motives of the Infinite Flight were aimed at altering the outcome of the Battle of Mount Hyjal by preventing the presence of Orcs on Azeroth, thereby tipping the balance of power. The absence of the Infinite Flight in MH left this motive up in the air, and it may have been that since they have decided to change things around to a new quest line or motive. Culling of Stratholme's link to Hyjal is quite real considering the role of Arthas in Reign of Chaos, but the effects these would have had on the outcome are much murkier. (One might argue that Illidan does not kill Tichondrius without Arthas, but on the other hand, what happens to the summoning of Archimonde without him?) Another logical option would be that with strong hints of Old God corruption being behind the flight, inciting chaos would be a main objective, but none of the three 5 mans are indisputably related to this.

Regarding Matthias, keep in mind we are the only people to see him (and cannonically if it ever gets put in book form this is likely to be only a single person) because we happened to touch Arthas' heart. Koltira Deathweaver basically several times assumes we are on a slippery slope to insanity but tells us he won't tell others if I recall correctly. How this ties in with the aftermath of Arthas I don't know, but I doubt Ner'zhul if still in existence could appear at will.

One other thing I wondered about last night after some working on Yogg-Saron is Sara and her intended role. It seems to me that while her nature (being a projection or avatar of Yogg-Saron) is not so much a reason for my concern, but rather her previously intended function by Blizzard. It seems to me that she's disconnected from the whole Ulduar experience, as in that she just happens to be there, screaming, but for the rest you don't get any sort of view on who she is. She might seem like a damsel in distress, but after our previous experiences with Vrykul would you expect the player races to be particularly interested in rescueing one?

I just get the feeling that the encounter was originally already conceptually developed to occur elsewhere, but when Father got pulled for YS in Ulduar, they 'uprooted' the encounter with Sara to the new location in Ulduar. To me the presence of Sara makes very little sense in Ulduar, there is no purpose to her which could not have been achieved with YS just revealing himself, nothing gained in this situation from tricking players into thinking they are dealing with a Vrykul woman.

I just get the feeling that originally Sara was supposed to be a character we see before in the instance she was supposed to be in (Azjol-Nerub?), potentially interacting with the players or at least showing up at several points. She'd kind of lead/guide/goad us further and further into the instance, to double cross us at the last moment to reveal in the Phase 1->2 transition that it was Yogg-Saron who was misleading us all along for his nefarious plans. The actual implementation just leaves me feeling that this was cut but she was left in the encounter, but with no additional relevance to the remainder of the instance, or clear reason why she is there.

Thoughts?

Strom · 06/02/09, 10:05 AM

Anyone think there is a link between the floating skulls in the YS encounter and the the floating skull above Ner'Zhul's head in the A:RotLK book?

Monocle · 06/02/09, 10:08 AM

Well one thing about Sara, is the stained glass windows in Vezax's room do seem to all depict stuff related to Yoggy.

The obvious ones are the images of Saronite, tentacles and the mawed face with a bunch of eyes. The last one shows a woman with a body that seems to be a cloak that then ends in tentacles at the bottom. So the whatever plan existed for Sara was in place when the art for here was designed.

Now were these windows put in there by the Titans originally, or were they changed by Yogg-Saron's interference? Maybe the shattered windows we see in here are the windows being broken and reassembled to exalt Yogg-Saron?

Mr. Crow · 06/02/09, 10:36 AM

Originally Posted by Sarjin

I personally don't see the prevention of large scale slaughter as an underlying motive for the infinites. While this might seem to hold true in the prevention of the Culling and the Dark Portal, it simply does not work so well for Thrall. While Thrall might have been involved in some conflicts, it's pretty easy to see given his character that any other leader would have means additional casualties. When it comes to the reforming of the new horde, conventional lore dictates that the Battle for Mount Hyjal would have been lost without said Horde - with the end of essentially all life on Azeroth as a result. Additionally the quote from I believe Aeonus ("The time has come to shatter this clockwork universe") does not strike me as a particularly 'red' or life preserving motive.

Going by the TBC component of the infinites, I'd have said that the motives of the Infinite Flight were aimed at altering the outcome of the Battle of Mount Hyjal by preventing the presence of Orcs on Azeroth, thereby tipping the balance of power. The absence of the Infinite Flight in MH left this motive up in the air, and it may have been that since they have decided to change things around to a new quest line or motive. Culling of Stratholme's link to Hyjal is quite real considering the role of Arthas in Reign of Chaos, but the effects these would have had on the outcome are much murkier. (One might argue that Illidan does not kill Tichondrius without Arthas, but on the other hand, what happens to the summoning of Archimonde without him?) Another logical option would be that with strong hints of Old God corruption being behind the flight, inciting chaos would be a main objective, but none of the three 5 mans are indisputably related to this.

Regarding Matthias, keep in mind we are the only people to see him (and cannonically if it ever gets put in book form this is likely to be only a single person) because we happened to touch Arthas' heart. Koltira Deathweaver basically several times assumes we are on a slippery slope to insanity but tells us he won't tell others if I recall correctly. How this ties in with the aftermath of Arthas I don't know, but I doubt Ner'zhul if still in existence could appear at will.

One other thing I wondered about last night after some working on Yogg-Saron is Sara and her intended role. It seems to me that while her nature (being a projection or avatar of Yogg-Saron) is not so much a reason for my concern, but rather her previously intended function by Blizzard. It seems to me that she's disconnected from the whole Ulduar experience, as in that she just happens to be there, screaming, but for the rest you don't get any sort of view on who she is. She might seem like a damsel in distress, but after our previous experiences with Vrykul would you expect the player races to be particularly interested in rescueing one?

I just get the feeling that the encounter was originally already conceptually developed to occur elsewhere, but when Father got pulled for YS in Ulduar, they 'uprooted' the encounter with Sara to the new location in Ulduar. To me the presence of Sara makes very little sense in Ulduar, there is no purpose to her which could not have been achieved with YS just revealing himself, nothing gained in this situation from tricking players into thinking they are dealing with a Vrykul woman.

I just get the feeling that originally Sara was supposed to be a character we see before in the instance she was supposed to be in (Azjol-Nerub?), potentially interacting with the players or at least showing up at several points. She'd kind of lead/guide/goad us further and further into the instance, to double cross us at the last moment to reveal in the Phase 1->2 transition that it was Yogg-Saron who was misleading us all along for his nefarious plans. The actual implementation just leaves me feeling that this was cut but she was left in the encounter, but with no additional relevance to the remainder of the instance, or clear reason why she is there.

Thoughts?

On the Infinite Flight: The way Chromie frames the Infinites for us is that every interference they make with the timeline would cause the total annihilation of our reality. This is probably a temporal mechanics thing more than anything else, but if you remove a powerful force like the Horde from history of Azeroth, Azeroth is a dramatically different place as a result. Removing the Horde is the project of Opening the Dark Portal, and preventing the salvation of the Horde by killing Thrall is the project of Old Hillsbrad. The point is not what the ultimate result of the change would be: it's that a dramatic change occurs that completely uproots everything that comes after it. The Infinites are choosing moments in time that shape the destiny of the world of Azeroth, because they know that disrupting those moments has a chance of compromising the destiny of the world.

It's also noticeable that in Old Strat you've got the Infinite Corruptor turning a Bronze into an Infinite. If we want to find an additional reason for why the Infinites are doing what they're doing, is it possible that they are sending agents to disrupt historical events because they know that'll bring out Bronzes they can ambush and corrupt? Is this a deconstruction of the Bronze Flight through indirect means?

On Sara: I took issue with Sara being a Vrykul woman as well, because nothing about the Vrykul screams "damsel in distress" to me. More importantly, it's so obvious that she's a trick because there weren't supposed to be any mortals within Ulduar before Bronzebeard and his team rolled in there. The video shows combat footage from all the opening fights, and shows Brann being the only one to survive a throwdown with Kologarn. If Brann and his crew didn't get past Kologarn, how was someone supposed to get down into the pit with Yoggy?

I for one don't think that Yogg-Saron was transplanted to Ulduar, but I do think that if Sara is somehow supposed to be more important, there is nothing in the game to tell us what her importance is. This is probably more related to the dearth of lead-in quests for raids; while there is plenty of implied reason for heroes to stomp into Naxxramas, no one ever tells us to do so. Killing Sapphiron provides the only example of a reason for the raid, because it provides access to Malygos directly. But there's no justification for breaking into the Obsidian Sanctum, and again, there's implied reasons for Ulduar, but nothing directly telling us "hey, it's your job, get in there and stomp dudes."

Sara would make plenty more sense if we knew who the hell she was and why the hell she was in there.

Jagiya · 06/02/09, 10:44 AM

Originally Posted by Kraith

Please link to this 100% conclusion. I never saw anything that concluded that.

I've got the book sitting here in front of me so I'll just type a few paragraphs out:

Originally Posted by Christie Golden: Rise of the Lich King

Arthas blinked and shook his head. The visions, tumbled, chaotic, heartening, and disturbing - were gone.
The orc chuckled, the painted skull on his face stretching with the gesture. He had once been named Ner'Zhul, had once had the gift of true visioning. Arthas did not doubt that all he had seen, though imperfectly understood, would indeed come to pass.

"So much more," the orc repeated, "but only if you continue to walk this path fully."

Slowly, the death knight turned his white head to the boy. The ill child met him with a gaze that was astonishingly clear, and for a moment, Arthas felt something inside him stir. Despite everything - the boy would not die.
And that meant...
The boy smiled a little, and some of the sickness dissipated as Arthas struggled for words. "You... are me. You are both... me. But you..."
His voice was soft, tinged with wonder and disbelief. "You are the little flame that burns inside me still, that resists the ice. You are the last vestiges of humanity - of compassion, of my ability to love, to grieve... to care. You are my love for Jaina, my love for my father... for all the things that made me what I once was. Somehow Frostmourne didn't take it all. I tried to turn away from you... and I couldn't. I can't."

The boy's sea-green eyes brightened and he gave his other self a tremulous smile. His color improved, and before Arthas' eyes, some of the pustules on his skin disappeared.
"You understand, now. Despite all, Arthas, you have not abandoned me." Tears of hope stood in those eyes and his voice, though stronger now than it had been, quavered with emotion. "There must be a reason. Arthas Menethil... much harm have you done, but there is goodness in you yet. If there was none... I would not exist, not even in your dreams."

He slipped off the chair and slowly walked toward the death knight. Arthas stood as he approached. For a moment, they regarded eachother, the child and the man he had become.

The boy extended his arms, as if he were a living, breathing child asking to be picked up and held by a loving father. "It doesn't have to be too late," he said quietly.

"No," Arthas said quietly, staring raptly at the boy. "It doesn't."

He touched the curve of the boy's cheek, slipped a hand beneath the small chin and tilted up the shining face. He smiled into his own eyes.

"But it is."

Frostmourne descended. The boy cried out, his shocked, betrayed anguished cry - that of the wind raging outside - and for a moment Arthas saw him standing there, the blade buried in his chest almost as big as he was, and he felt one final tremor of remorse as he met his own eyes.

Then the boy was gone. All that remained of him was the bitter keening of the wind scouring the tormented land.

It felt... marvelous. It was only with the boy's passing that Arthas truly realised how dreadful a burden this last struggling scrap of humanity had been. He felt light, powerful, purged. Scoured clean, as Azeroth would soon be. All his weakness, his softness, everything that had ever made him hesitate or second-guess himself - it was all gone, now.

There was only Arthas, Frostmourne, all but singing at having claimed the final piece of Arthas' soul, and the orc, whose skull-face was split with triumphant laughter.

"Yes!" the orc exhilarated, laughing almost maniacally. "I knew you would make this choice. For so long you have wrestled with the last dregs of goodness, of humanity in you, but no longr. The boy held you back, but now you are free." He now got to his feet, his body still that of an old orc, but moving with the ease and fluidity of the young.

"We are one, Arthas. Together, we are the Lich King. No more Ner'Zhul, no more Arthas - only this one glorious being. With my knowledge, we can..."

His eyes bulged as the sword impaled him.

Arthas stepped forward, plunging the glittering, hungering Frostmourne ever deeper into the dream-being that had once been Ner'Zhul, then the Lich King, and was soon to be nothing, nothing at all. He slipped his other arm around the body, pressing his lips so close to the green ear that the gesture was almost intimate, as intimate as the act of taking a life always was and always would be.

"No," Arthas whispered. "No we. No-one tells me what to do. I've got everything I need from you - now the power is mine and mine alone. Now there is only I. I am the Lich King. I am ready."
The orc shuddered in his arms, stunned by the betrayal, and vanished.

The mouth you are referring to is that of the Lich King, who isn't just Arthas or Ner'Zhul, so it is still quite possible one or both are still in there and no telling which one or if both are in control.

As above, Arthas quite clearly states that it's just him in control now. To quote one more line from RotLK:

Originally Posted by Christie Golden: Rise of the Lich King

Arthas, the Lich King, alone in his glory and power, slowly opened his eyes. He was awake.
"It's begun."

Anyone think there is a link between the floating skulls in the YS encounter and the the floating skull above Ner'Zhul's head in the A:RotLK book?

No, the skull is quite obviously Ner'Zhul's white face-paint, nothing more.

As for us seeing Matthias in Icecrown, it's quite clear that the act of killing the boy in his dream corresponds with the physical act of removing his heart. We come in contact with the heart, and as such, we're introduced to the goodness of Arthas. And it's now been physically destroyed.

Kaejin · 06/02/09, 10:48 AM

Originally Posted by Kraith

The Infinite Dragonflight

What is the current thoughts here? Are they the future Bronzes? Most of the quests lead me to believe this but I feel they could also be corrupted Reds or simply corrupted dragons from all flights. I say Reds because they seem to try to attack and kill beings that caused (directly or indirectly) large scale death. Preventing Thrall from making a stronger Horde would prevent a new Horde/Alliance war (though the old Horde might have still caused this war). Killing Arthas would prevent him from becoming the LK. Stopping the Dark Portal would same thousands upon thousands. Hope we see more of them in the future and more than just one new instance.

Nearly all of the situations involving the Infinite have the obvious "good" intention and a disaster that would happen in place of the initially prevented event. Each instance even goes so far as to have a quest or NPC tell you.

OHB: Thrall and the new Horde aid in repelling the Legion at Mt Hyjal, among other more recent heroics (AQ being a good example, the Silithid may never have been discovered in time if the Horde hadn't taken residence in Kalimdor).

BM: Stopping Medivh and preventing the Horde from coming to Azeroth would never have prompted the Alliance to form, and the Legion would have steamrolled everyone.

CoS: No freedom for the Lich King? What could be better! Oh wait, the Legion again... The one of the biggest reasons the Legion failed in WC3 was because of Ner'zuhl's betrayal, which Arthas played a large part in. Aside from that, I'm sure we all know how many standing armies the Lich King has caused to rally. Hard to invade like that, eh?

Funny... all of the meddling by the Infinites have favorable outcomes for the Legion...