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06/02/09, 10:55 AM
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#3451
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Mr. Sandman
Night Elf Druid
Argent Dawn (EU)
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Originally Posted by Monocle
Well one thing about Sara, is the stained glass windows in Vezax's room do seem to all depict stuff related to Yoggy.
The obvious ones are the images of Saronite, tentacles and the mawed face with a bunch of eyes. The last one shows a woman with a body that seems to be a cloak that then ends in tentacles at the bottom. So the whatever plan existed for Sara was in place when the art for here was designed.
Now were these windows put in there by the Titans originally, or were they changed by Yogg-Saron's interference? Maybe the shattered windows we see in here are the windows being broken and reassembled to exalt Yogg-Saron?
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Well that was most likely added after they decided to move Yogg Saron there, if you believe the rumours/leaks that he was originally in Azjol Nerub which would seem logical. I wonder though if the stain glass windows don't depict some Old God transformation of creatures. Given the similarity between Vezax and Naga I think the Faceless ones are probably some of the old Gods first minions and are the eventual path of the Naga/Highborne, minus the modifications to allow them to live underwater.
It does make sense with Sara though, she seemed completely randomly placed in the instance with no reason to be there. Her being in Azjol Nerub, perhaps as a captured scourge Vrykul, would seem to make much more sense. I get the feeling she might have "helped" us in Azjol Nerub to her own ends before revealing herself.
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06/02/09, 10:56 AM
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#3452
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Von Kaiser
Night Elf Hunter
Runetotem
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I don't get the feeling that the plans for Ulduar were changed. At least, not since the development of the Storm Peaks (but perhaps after the development of Howling Fjord). Everything about the way the instance is set up heavily suggests that Yog Saron was always intended to be there. The corrupted watchers who help you fight later in the instance, large portions of the instance's art and design, and the not thrown-together-last-minute trailer are all obviously designed with Yog Saron in mind. I don't think vague references to "Father" really have to be someone aside from Yog, especially because we already know that Yog Saron is really big on pretending to be someone else in order to manipulate people. Also, in the quest in Storm Peaks where Thorim is taken (the culmination of a quest-line that is a huge part of the structure of the zone), it is obviously done by a shadowy tentacle. The fact that most signs in many of the quests pointed to Yog Saron being deep in Azjol-Nerub may have meant that we would've ended up finding out his true location in the Azjol-Nerub zone quests. Perhaps the ultimate quest-line in the zone would've ended with us forcing Yog Saron to retreat back into his former prison, who knows? The only thing I really buy as a change to the ultimate Ulduar plan is the possibility that Tyr was removed.
Also, I don't think Sara was ever intended for anything but exactly what she's used for. The whole concept is very simple, it's a damsel in distress and your raid is trying to save her throughout the instance. You assume she's a good guy because she's fighting the bad guys, and she's a vrykul because it makes sense for there to be a vrykul in Northrend and they're faction neutral. Could Blizzard have done something to more involve you in having a reason to rescue her? Sure. It doesn't mean that because they didn't that there was some huge plan they wanted to implement but never could.
EDIT:
Though, now that I think about it, it is entirely possible that she would be a character you interacted with in the Azjol-Nerub zone. In fact, I think that would've made a lot of sense, if many of the quests that you did in there involved her.
Last edited by AJAlkaline : 06/02/09 at 11:01 AM.
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06/02/09, 11:06 AM
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#3453
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King Hippo
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Originally Posted by AJAlkaline
I don't get the feeling that the plans for Ulduar were changed. At least, not since the development of the Storm Peaks (but perhaps after the development of Howling Fjord). Everything about the way the instance is set up heavily suggests that Yog Saron was always intended to be there. The corrupted watchers who help you fight later in the instance, large portions of the instance's art and design, and the not thrown-together-last-minute trailer are all obviously designed with Yog Saron in mind. I don't think vague references to "Father" really have to be someone aside from Yog, especially because we already know that Yog Saron is really big on pretending to be someone else in order to manipulate people. Also, in the quest in Storm Peaks where Thorim is taken (the culmination of a quest-line that is a huge part of the structure of the zone), it is obviously done by a shadowy tentacle. The fact that most signs in many of the quests pointed to Yog Saron being deep in Azjol-Nerub may have meant that we would've ended up finding out his true location in the Azjol-Nerub zone quests. Perhaps the ultimate quest-line in the zone would've ended with us forcing Yog Saron to retreat back into his former prison, who knows? The only thing I really buy as a change to the ultimate Ulduar plan is the possibility that Tyr was removed.
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Well, yes, in retrospect it's obvious that by the time Storm Peaks content was added late in the beta, Blizzard had scrapped its original A-N plans (Azjol-Nerub was already in the game as a 5-man zone) and planned on shifting Yogg-Saron into Ulduar. Obviously by the time HoL was finished this change was finalized. The actual Ulduar art was designed long after this.
But the problem with circumstantial evidence is that short of a direct blue quote, one can't really prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Yogg-Saron wasn't the original intended boss of Ulduar.
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06/02/09, 11:14 AM
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#3454
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Mr. Sandman
Night Elf Druid
Argent Dawn (EU)
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Well the quests related to YS seem to me to point to the fact that he was in Azjol Nerub or nearby, a more central location. He has presence in Icecrown, Dragonblight, Grizzly Hills, Borean Tundra and Howling Fjord. That seems to be a pretty nice spread from Azjol Nerub. Now that's obviously ignoring Storm Peaks, which I think is where he was moved too some point in the development process, which promoted a rework of the quest line. When they decided not to add Azjol Nerub zone or raid (worst decision ever by the way, would have been awesome) they had all these dangling YS story lines that would have no conclusion, so he was moved to Ulduar and it was reworked lore wise to now be a prison, an exceptionally inefficient one given his reach and influence (which I think again makes more sense if you think he was originally not imprisoned, just chilling in AN). I think the original plan for Ulduar could have involved the watchers being corrupted from afar, but was more likely something to do with the whole Algalon issue and players trying to stop him. The watchers would have a legitimate reason for stopping us tackling Algalon.
Of course its just speculation based on quest text and discrepancy but I hope we eventually get a Blizzard source on what was intended for AN.
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06/02/09, 11:21 AM
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#3455
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Great Tiger
Troll Death Knight
Mal'Ganis
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I'm not so sure. Storm Peaks makes no solid connection to Yogg except for a few cases.
The Iron Army has no real connection to Yogg made until Loken in Storm Peaks abducts Thorim. Even Icecrown has evidence that Yogg is under Northrend (and more evidence to his location in general than Storm Peaks). Storm Peaks is strangely devoid of Yogg until the end of Thorim's questline and the current version of Ulduar.
It's pretty clear that all the zones had their stories pretty fleshed out early on, before the decision was made to put Yogg in Uld. The only reason he looks like he belongs in Uld while you're actually in Uld is because of how long it was in development after the decision was made. Every other zone and quest aside from Thorim's points to him being in AN.
Loken's defeat in HoL doesn't really even make sense with the context of him serving Yogg and Yogg being in Uld.
I'd say Northrend is probably one of the messiest things Blizzard has done so far, lore-wise. It probably would have made more sense to just leave Yogg out of the picture completely (raid-wise) and keep him as a lurking evil that haunts us in the back of our minds.
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Uulwi ifis halahs gag erh'ongg w'ssh.
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06/02/09, 11:25 AM
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#3456
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Piston Honda
Troll Priest
Runetotem (EU)
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Some added thoughts to the whole Sara thing I came up with reading stuff:
I do get the feeling seeing some things that she was initially intended to be a more elaborate double cross, in the tradition of Drakuru and Loken. Just looking at her, the buffs she casts are double sided in phase one, she is neutral, and then during the phase transition the voice gradually changing to Yogg's and her becoming hostile. While I know most players would have guessed anyways, last boss incoming and all, I'd say that in a lore kind of situation she was intended to double cross the players. The problem with this is that in the current situation there is no meaningful double cross, since we have this "Who is this Sara and what is she doing here" feeling due to no prior introduction. (Aside from pissing off raids by yelling at the most irritating moments)
Basically the Vrykul subtype Sara seems to be of model wise is the 'regular' Vrykul (for lack of any better term), which are pretty much entirely Scourge alligned so not likely to be considered friendly to player races. The only Vrykul subtype which shows some sort of dedication to good (to Thorim), is the Hyldnir in the Storm Peaks, though in a rather harsh and not entirely agreeable way.
Overall I don't entirely agree with Ulduar being a smooth experience. A lot of it makes sense (The Siege, Veranus turned Razorscale and such) ties in flawlessly with the outside of the Storm Peaks. The Keepers make a lot of sense in that it was clear they would be corrupted by whatever entity was behind the mess in Ulduar. Beyond this though, there's some issues:
-Kologarn and Auriaya are essentially loreless bosses of which each instance seems to have a few. Not much to say, visually they fit in but they do nothing to add to it but being a bigger named mob dropping epics and being part of achievements.
-While the previous part of the instance could easily have been fine with any master in Ulduar who was up to no good, the Descent into Madness marks a sudden shift into things indisputably alligned with the Old Gods, with Vezax' and YS' presence. Nothing wrong with this, but the whole situation does not eliminate the option of the remainder of the instance with the Descent into Madness fitted in after YS got moved at some point during beta.
-I just feel there's a huge amount of loose ends with the Iron Dwarfs/Giants/Vrykul. They feature prominently from Howling Fjord to Grizzly Hills and then Storm Peaks and the pre-Descent parts of Ulduar. However they are never entirely explained in terms of origin, there is no background behind the Iron Council for example. Overall the whole Dark Runed 'race' is one major loose thread of which little is explained beyond that they are somehow created in Ulduar, looking at Halls of Stone. It just makes me wonder if originally a master of Ulduar was intended who was more linked and similar in nature to these beings ('Father' ! ), rather than Yogg-Saron. (for whom they are useful roadblocks but bear next to no link to him - even if it could be a case of using the materials at hand)
I realize it's all speculation, and I don't think we will ever find out unless someone from Blizzard comes out or we see older development documents or so. Part of it might just be that Blizzard storytelling while usually good doesn't always live up to the potential we see as community, and tends to leave high amounts of loose threads which are never revisited. But it does have me wonder.
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06/02/09, 12:11 PM
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#3457
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Honorary Toastr
Night Elf Priest
Dragonblight
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I thought we all got over the "Old Gods are dead" thing with the presumed whispers of C'thun?
Their physical manifestations were defeated, but there's certainly more behind them.
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Originally Posted by arison
Everyone should start from the same place and rise based on their abilities, desires, and schedule. No one plays MMOs to *be* powerful, they play MMOs to *become* powerful. It's the journey, stupid. The rarer loot is, the more cherished it is when you get it, but only so long as there is a reasonable expectation to get it. The rarer loot is, the better it feels when you kill a boss or when $AWESOME_TRINKET drops.
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06/02/09, 4:05 PM
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#3458
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Don Flamenco
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I always assumed that Kologarn and Auriaya were part of Ulduar's original defense system. Kologarn is pretty much the gatekeeper to the main center and Auriaya is the overseer of the Watcher areas. They are likely designed to let the Watchers pass, so there would be no need for YS to influence them, they may have such a limited focus in their duties. I going to guess that the Watchers regularly did do visits to Ulduar as part of their assignments, it just all fell apart when Loken went rogue.
Going to throw XT into the guard category as well. There are a lot of broken robots in that area, so it is a safe guess that Mirmiron has been continuously working on improving the design for a doorman, even before all this happened.
IC, well maybe they were created by Loken as the commanders of his army, he would need to delegate some things.
Now, do the Watchers have free will? Loken I would say yes, but I am not so sure about the other four, especially Mirmiron on hearing his end battle quotes.
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06/02/09, 4:21 PM
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#3459
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Piston Honda
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Originally Posted by Monocle
Now, do the Watchers have free will? Loken I would say yes, but I am not so sure about the other four, especially Mirmiron on hearing his end battle quotes.
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From the quests in Storm Peaks I'd say it's fairly clear that Thorim does as well, and I think there are a few quotes from the Sons of Hodir quests that indicate Hodir used to be fairly independent.
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06/02/09, 5:03 PM
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#3460
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Piston Honda
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Originally Posted by Monocle
Now, do the Watchers have free will? Loken I would say yes, but I am not so sure about the other four, especially Mirmiron on hearing his end battle quotes.
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I think mimiron always thinks in those terms. I think they were all created with a prime directive but they're independant beyond that.
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06/02/09, 5:42 PM
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#3461
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Von Kaiser
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Arthas stepped forward, plunging the glittering, hungering Frostmourne ever deeper into the dream-being that had once been Ner'Zhul, then the Lich King, and was soon to be nothing, nothing at all. He slipped his other arm around the body, pressing his lips so close to the green ear that the gesture was almost intimate, as intimate as the act of taking a life always was and always would be.
"No," Arthas whispered. "No we. No-one tells me what to do. I've got everything I need from you - now the power is mine and mine alone. Now there is only I. I am the Lich King. I am ready."
The orc shuddered in his arms, stunned by the betrayal, and vanished.
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Arthas dreaming of killing Ner'zhul doesn't mean Ner'zhul isn't still in there. Ner'zhul himself admits that they are one now. Meaning that the dream is just that a dream. Arthas may think he is alone, that doesn't mean he is.
Thanks though, you quoted just enough to force me to go out and buy the book. Thanks =p
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06/02/09, 10:09 PM
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#3462
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Don Flamenco
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I see no reason for them to dupe the reader like that. Considering all of this takes place within Arthas' mind, and Ner'Zhul is nothing short of ethereal, it's not like he's putting on a show here. One could argue that Ner'Zhul saw all of this coming and played the role required so that Arthas would think Ner'Zhul was gone for good... but that seems a little corny, don't you think?
Additionally, the few paragraphs I left out of that passage include the impact of these actions. Several powerful figures around the world; all closely connected to Arthas; feel a powerful wave of chills and heart-shattering horror at the exact moment Arthas executed Ner'Zhul. (Jaina, Aegwynn, Sylvanas, to name a few.)
I'm at work at the moment, so I don't have the book in front of me, but the emotions these characters felt as a result - particularly Jaina - is enough to demonstrate that Arthas is behind the wheel, and there's no passengers.
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06/02/09, 10:52 PM
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#3463
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King Hippo
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Pretty much..
I'm disappointed that Blizzard chose not to really develop Ner'Zhul at all, but I think it's safe to say that in 3.3 you really WILL kill or otherwise neutralize Arthas, there will be no "but what about Ner'Zhul?" open ending, and the Scourge really will fall apart, and that'll be the end of it. There's no need to add unnecessary complexity by making it ambiguous who's in charge.
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06/02/09, 11:57 PM
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#3464
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Piston Honda
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Originally Posted by Liebestod
Pretty much..
I'm disappointed that Blizzard chose not to really develop Ner'Zhul at all, but I think it's safe to say that in 3.3 you really WILL kill or otherwise neutralize Arthas, there will be no "but what about Ner'Zhul?" open ending, and the Scourge really will fall apart, and that'll be the end of it. There's no need to add unnecessary complexity by making it ambiguous who's in charge.
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My concern is that it's not going to be so cut and dry. In Naxxramas 1.0, we down Kel'thuzad, but delivered his phylactery to Inigo Montoy, which sets up Naxxramas 2.0 (kinda). In AQ40, we down C'Thun, but even then it's not certain that C'Thun is inactive or that the Qiraji are gone for good. In Sunwell Plateau, we shut down Kael'thas' gamble to bring Kil'Jaeden into the show, but he's neither dead nor really defeated, and neither is the Legion. With a force as powerful as Arthas and the Scourge, I get the sense that while we might defeat Arthas himself, the Scourge might remain a threat. Diminished, and perhaps lacking the unifying will of the Lich King, but still a threat.
Meanwhile, on the list of threats that were pretty officially shut down: yes, we did kill Thaurissan in Blackrock Depths and that shut up the Dark Irons. We killed Rend Blackhand in UBRS and that shut down the Old Horde. Nefarian and Onyxia are dead, though Big Poppa Deathwing is still hanging back as a looming threat. And we did officially shut down Hakkar pretty effectively. And while they somehow keep coming up with more crazed fanatics to throw at us, I'm pretty sure the Scarlets are gone for good.
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06/03/09, 1:38 AM
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#3465
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King Hippo
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C'Thun (maybe) can be kept around because there's still Old God lore to be explored. The Qiraji are done, however.
Kil'Jaeden can be kept around because it's guaranteed that we'll be dealing with the Burning Legion in the future.
But there's really no reason to keep Arthas or the Scourge around. I mean, maybe they'd have a purpose in Gilneas (since it borders Silverpine.. but then again, Silverpine doesn't seem to have a big scourge presence?), but there's pretty much zero likely future content areas which would demand that the Scourge be an ongoing force in Azeroth. Hence why I think things will be resolved at Icecrown - because there's no point in keeping the plot open, unlike the case with other stories.
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