World of Warcraft - Lore & Storyline discussion [SPOILERS] - Page 238

Leviathon · 06/16/09, 10:44 AM

Originally Posted by Vaccine

I don't think people would be aggravated by new sub level cap zones. But it isn't entirely reasonable to expect a whole new 1-58 set of zones. The other option is to have the new race zone as an accelerated starting zone where quests reward mode and after finishing the two zones you're 30 instead of 20 or something. Also I think them adding one new zone in the 45-55 range would be pretty awesome as that seems to be the slow down period for those of us that level wtihout RAF. DWM revamp I loved so they could maybe just do that or add a new zone wherever the new expansion is set.

That is assuming there even is new races, maybe it will be a new hero class or maybe it will be neither. I'd prefer a complete overhaul of all races graphics and animations than a new race personally, as well as maybe making all new armour look like armour instead of painted on skin like some of the NPC's have started getting.

As for what races, I think there's a lot of potential for some sort of Furbolg faction. Maybe using the Gurloc excuse that they had their evolution accelerated and lost some bulk so armour wouldn't look ridiculous on them. Could fit them in either faction but I think Horde would fit better. I know they bent the lore a lot to let Dranei into the Alliance given the humans racisim but I can't see them accepting furry beat men wandering around Stormwind. But it depends how far they want to stretch it I guess. Naga would be a no for me just from the model limitations. Worgen possible but the lore pretty much points to them being mindless bloodthirsty savages from a planet in perpetual war. Murlocs/Gurlocs same as Naga, too difficult modelwise. Goblins, I hope not.

Other options would that it would not be a fully fledged new race as such but maybe the Frostborn and Taunka become available to play. Taunka could be based out of Dragonblight and starting zones could be caves in Azjol Nerub (yes I'm determined this comes to the game still!) and Frostborn could have some cave in Storm Peaks that they breached part of a titan facility and are battling rogue YS controlled machines.

It was already mentioned that the next expansion will be them improving graphics a bit so I wouldn't be surprised if they aren't already upgrading the current races models to be on par with draenei/blood elves.

And I wouldn't look too into current models for whether something can be a race since Blizzard will just update other models for that race just like how they did for high elves when they added blood elves.

Exemplar · 06/16/09, 10:55 AM

Originally Posted by Torrential

Adding a new race or new class is many times the work of adding new leveling area (Outland/Northrend) and dungeons. I think we'd all be a lot better off if they put all that time and effort into having better and more polished content to play 80-90 and at 90.

New races more so than classes, at least from the art department. Remember, every new race needs to have every usable piece of gear in the game modeled to match it. This means scaling, shoulders being in the proper places, leggings not clipping (leading to bermuda shorts appearances), etc. Every x-pac (and major content patch) releases more items, which means more to arrange appropriately for a given new race.

I'd deem new races highly unlikely - new (hero) classes mildly unlikely. Appropriate niches are few and far between at this stage. Creating another class that could heal doesn't mean that people would play it as healers. You just keep running back into that homogenization wall that Blizzard claims it wants to avoid.

Mr. Crow · 06/16/09, 11:43 AM

Originally Posted by Exemplar

New races more so than classes, at least from the art department. Remember, every new race needs to have every usable piece of gear in the game modeled to match it. This means scaling, shoulders being in the proper places, leggings not clipping (leading to bermuda shorts appearances), etc. Every x-pac (and major content patch) releases more items, which means more to arrange appropriately for a given new race.

I'd deem new races highly unlikely - new (hero) classes mildly unlikely. Appropriate niches are few and far between at this stage. Creating another class that could heal doesn't mean that people would play it as healers. You just keep running back into that homogenization wall that Blizzard claims it wants to avoid.

The issue of saying that "new races/classes require more development time than new zones, thus new races and classes should be set aside for new zones" is that eventually, even with all the possible development time available, you reach a certain saturation point for how many zones you can add.

The closer view we had of Wrath's development cycle shows that Azjol-Nerub was supposed to be a leveling zone, Coldarra was supposed to be it's own zone instead of a subzone of Borean Tundra, Crystalsong Forest was actually supposed to have more in it than pointless NPCs... I think they realized that throwing too many zones at the player base would have been as bad or worse than not throwing enough. Compressing the zones down into what we have now meant cutting back on the storylines running through those zones -- so if we say that Coldarra was diminished substantially from what was originally designed, that explains why there's so little actual content on the Nexus War.

This is not to say that they're required to add a new race or a new hero class, but instead to say that the next expansion will either contain moderately more zone content (as opposed to substantially more), two new races and BC's quantity of content, or a hero class and Wrath's amount of content. Or it's possible that they'll put out an entirely new form of content that is not new races and not a hero class and not just more zones. We'll know in about two months, I think.

Douglas · 06/16/09, 12:10 PM

Originally Posted by Mr. Crow

This is not to say that they're required to add a new race or a new hero class, but instead to say that the next expansion will either contain moderately more zone content (as opposed to substantially more), two new races and BC's quantity of content, or a hero class and Wrath's amount of content. Or it's possible that they'll put out an entirely new form of content that is not new races and not a hero class and not just more zones. We'll know in about two months, I think.

To add to this: I think they're hitting diminishing returns on trade skills. I'm not sure the economy/ecosystem has much room for more than two or three more for the entire lifetime of WoW. I am really not sure we will see another new trade skill in the next expansion. I'd like to see lumberjack/woodworker (crafting staves, shields, maces, off-hand items, and items that are used to customize player/guild housing), but I do not think we will.

• Jessamy · 06/16/09, 1:22 PM

Originally Posted by Douglas

Another option of course is another race. Pandaren is right out. Naga are problematic for a few reasons. But if it's "Maelstrom & Undermine", well, what race is seriously being displaced by the Naga and might come looking for allies?

Murlocs. Maybe, if it's a "Maelstrom & Undermine" expansion, Horde gets Goblins and Alliance gets Murlocs. And the most-widely-hated player race would finally be something other than Blood Elves.

Both within the Maelstrom and on Azeroth, the Makrura have long been enemies to the Naga.

Leviathon · 06/16/09, 1:29 PM

Originally Posted by Jessamy

Both within the Maelstrom and on Azeroth, the Makrura have long been enemies to the Naga.

Them being a playable race though is probably as likely as Kobolds being playable. It just wouldn't work out very well.

Torrential · 06/16/09, 2:07 PM

Originally Posted by Mr. Crow

I think they realized that throwing too many zones at the player base would have been as bad or worse than not throwing enough

Or did they simply run out of time?

Granted, as is we have more than enough zones to level 70-80. But what if instead of Death Knights we got the AN raid everybody wanted for 3.2?

Or many of the smaller, lore-less quests could have been trimmed out to make having more content in Crystal Song work out. Honestly nobody except Blizzard knows the exact reasons things are cut, or how not doing certain content would allow for other content.

I would bet against new races or a new class regardless of this debate, however.

Douglas · 06/16/09, 3:11 PM

Originally Posted by Torrential

But what if instead of Death Knights we got the AN raid everybody wanted for 3.2?

Who would have been happy with that? I'm a bit of a lore nerd, and I would not have made that trade-off. I do not think that would have been a good decision for Blizzard at all.

I'm virtually certain that each expansion from now on will come with one hero class. We'll have hints before too much longer.

Tinwhisker · 06/16/09, 3:20 PM

Originally Posted by Douglas

I'm virtually certain that each expansion from now on will come with one hero class. We'll have hints before too much longer.

I think it's safe to say that any new class will be a hybrid, ie capable of two or more roles in a raid. I'm fairly sure we'll see a healing/DPS hybrid next as we just got a tank/DPS hybrid.

Mr. Crow · 06/16/09, 4:21 PM

Originally Posted by Tinwhisker

I think it's safe to say that any new class will be a hybrid, ie capable of two or more roles in a raid. I'm fairly sure we'll see a healing/DPS hybrid next as we just got a tank/DPS hybrid.

A lot of evidence is pointing in that direction, and after the DK was first announced, noise was made about them wanting a new hero every expansion afterwards. This was shortly after the breath stating that they wanted to do an expansion a year, though.

Additionally, I remember Ghostcrawler saying at one point that we shouldn't expect a new hero class every expansion -- I think their experience with trying to hyper-iterate the DK class might cool them to throwing an 11th class into the mix.

It doesn't help that most of the source material they're using to create the hero classes are Hero Units from WC3, most of which have already been reiterated either as part of the core classes (Whirlwind was an Orc Blademaster skill, I think), or their abilities have been transplanted to other classes (Metamorphosis from the Demon Hunter is a Warlock skill now, which kinda makes sense). While an Archdruid would make sense for an Emerald Dream expansion, how do you justify Archdruid and Druid being separate but equal classes?

I'm eager to see a new Hero class just for the sake of seeing what they come up with and how they make it work within the current dynamic. I completely understand if they decide to hold off on that.

The more I talk about it, the more eager I am for BlizzCon. Something new has to drop there, there's just no telling what it's going to be.

Chirality · 06/16/09, 6:39 PM

Originally Posted by Mr. Crow

A lot of evidence is pointing in that direction, and after the DK was first announced, noise was made about them wanting a new hero every expansion afterwards. This was shortly after the breath stating that they wanted to do an expansion a year, though.

Additionally, I remember Ghostcrawler saying at one point that we shouldn't expect a new hero class every expansion -- I think their experience with trying to hyper-iterate the DK class might cool them to throwing an 11th class into the mix.

It doesn't help that most of the source material they're using to create the hero classes are Hero Units from WC3, most of which have already been reiterated either as part of the core classes (Whirlwind was an Orc Blademaster skill, I think), or their abilities have been transplanted to other classes (Metamorphosis from the Demon Hunter is a Warlock skill now, which kinda makes sense). While an Archdruid would make sense for an Emerald Dream expansion, how do you justify Archdruid and Druid being separate but equal classes?

I'm eager to see a new Hero class just for the sake of seeing what they come up with and how they make it work within the current dynamic. I completely understand if they decide to hold off on that.

The more I talk about it, the more eager I am for BlizzCon. Something new has to drop there, there's just no telling what it's going to be.

Honestly, at this point, I wouldn't be surprised to see some sort of revamp of the talent system. You can't just keep adding 10 talents to every tree every time an expansion comes out without running into trouble. Look at what happened in Wrath: new talents, better designed talents, *AND* Glyphs? Even Ghostcrawler has said (recently) that this resulted in a hyper-inflation of damage scaling compared to health.

I'm not sure whether a fourth tree for every class is approriate, or whether second, parallel 'sub tree' (think Hunter pets) would be a better choice, but I would be surprised to see "10 more talents!" happen without any other changes.

Leviathon · 06/16/09, 7:50 PM

Originally Posted by Chirality

Honestly, at this point, I wouldn't be surprised to see some sort of revamp of the talent system. You can't just keep adding 10 talents to every tree every time an expansion comes out without running into trouble. Look at what happened in Wrath: new talents, better designed talents, *AND* Glyphs? Even Ghostcrawler has said (recently) that this resulted in a hyper-inflation of damage scaling compared to health.

I'm not sure whether a fourth tree for every class is approriate, or whether second, parallel 'sub tree' (think Hunter pets) would be a better choice, but I would be surprised to see "10 more talents!" happen without any other changes.

I think they should go a direction of having a sub tree for classes that's like a 'prestige class' type thing. For example a Archdruid tree for druids, Archmage for mages etc. That way they can improve the classes in funner ways than just 'here are 10 more points' but I could see them running into the same balancing issues they do with 10 more talent points and I not sure how they could do that in a good way of having the fourth tree be unique.

Vaccine · 06/17/09, 7:33 AM

Originally Posted by Douglas

Who would have been happy with that? I'm a bit of a lore nerd, and I would not have made that trade-off. I do not think that would have been a good decision for Blizzard at all.

I'm virtually certain that each expansion from now on will come with one hero class. We'll have hints before too much longer.

I would have in a heartbeat. The DK class brought very little good to the game and in return threw balance in both PvP and PvE into mayhem for months, I'd argue they are still too powerful on fights that matter in PvE as well.

As well as that, there stated aim of increasing the number of tanks by adding DK's didn't seem to work either. Every one I run into is a DPS spec.

I think adding another class is a lot of work and I'd be very surprised if they added another one so soon after DKs.

Exemplar · 06/17/09, 8:41 AM

Originally Posted by Vaccine

As well as that, there stated aim of increasing the number of tanks by adding DK's didn't seem to work either. Every one I run into is a DPS spec.

I think adding another class is a lot of work and I'd be very surprised if they added another one so soon after DKs.

And this is why I deemed a new Hero unlikely (but possible). It's a hell of a lot of work, and just because they add a new class which can (in theory) heal and DPS doesn't mean it'll assist any healing shortfall issues Blizzard may see.

Healer balance is very difficult, too - a new healer class will start out either underpowered or overpowered. Underpowered is useless (until it gets a kneejerk buff and jumps to OP), while overpowered (hellllooooo DK) will put the other healers up in arms. Having all your guild's healers respec DPS because the new class is clearly superior and/or waiting all the rerolls to level their new healer from 55(? 65? Hopefully not 1) to max level could seriously affect initial raiding (unless Tempest Keep mysteriously teleports to the Maelstrom and we already know all the boss fights).

Kumar · 06/17/09, 10:03 AM

I don't beleive the DKs were added just for the class part, the adding of the DK has also tied into the Lore for the expansion. Ebon Blade plays an important role in Northrend and their role will probably become more important as Icecrown Citadel releases.

In terms of future Hero classes, Blizzard will add them and the difficulty will be for them to make sure any hero classes doesn't eclipse the current class (for example adding an Archdruid would be difficult). As far as Blizzard is concerned, their implementation of DKs has been succesful, almost everybody has a DK because of the level 55 start.